My Issues With the 4 Step Proof for God

[adrian]

First of all, I'm an agnostic (basically means I have no idea...I'm not saying that there is or isn't a god).
1) The current theory about the Big Bang doesn't say that there is "an eternity of the past of cause and effect"...on the contrary, causality breaks down at the moment of big bang: all the matter in the universe was concentrated in a singularity, so if there was anything before that it had no effect on anything after the big bang.
Unless you take the Bible too literally, the Big Band doesn't contradict it

2) No one is saying that the Big Bang (or any thing else) happened by itself. The Big Bang is a theory that takes into account actual evidence, that's it.

3) Trying to disprove something that by definition doesn't have any proof of existing is hard and pointless. That's what I don't like atheists that refuse to consider the existence of a god.

4) This is basically just point 1) again, I think

[Churchwork]

First off, Jesus said if you are not for Him, you are against Him, so you have no excuse for being agnostic.

Secondly, you have been made in God's image with a spirit of God-consciousness, so any excuse you muster to not receive the cross is unforgivable and hellbound.

Thirdly, since Jesus said He is God, the Pharisees tried to kill Him for making this claim, Jesus' position is clear.

Fourthly, since none can compare to Christ, you'll need to address His claim of being God, for He certainly stands apart as unique in all the universe.

Fifth, He was multiply attested in His ministry and resurrection, and even Paul said he met with the apostles on several questions by name (including John, James and Peter) in which they agreed on the the purpose of His death, deity and resurrection in their eyewitness accounts.

Sixth, since people do not die as a martyrs for something they do not believe or know is a lie, it is incumbent on you to find an alternative explanation, and if you can't find one, then no longer remain independent from your Creator and a pawn of Satan. God longs for your dependency on Him. The apostles truly believed they walked with, spoke with, touched and ate with Jesus before and after He died on the cross and was resurrected.

Seventh, Jesus is more well documented than anyone in antiquity, so lack of historical record is not a viable excuse. We have 45 early known sources in addition to the Bible documenting 129 facts of his life from Christians and non-Christians.

Eighth, scientists have calculated the probability of one man being able to fulfill all the prophesies that existed centuries before Jesus' arrival that Jesus did fulfill is impossible unless He is God.

Ninth, I do not know anyone who claimed to be the singularly only Uncreated Being except Jesus in the Trinity. Many claims exist of millions of gods to appeal to one's particular fleshly interests, but in terms of ultimate origins, who said they were Uncreated and had the love to enter into creation to atone for sins as a man in the likeness of flesh? I do not know of a single credible and well documented resurrection of any man on earth who said he was God besides Jesus.

Step 1 - With regard to your misreading, Step 1 of the 4 Step Proof (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2021) does not say the Big Bang says there is an eternity of the past of cause and effects. What Step 1 says is IF there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects (which would include the Big Bang), then the reason that could not be possible is because of the exponential progression of conscience that we all observe.

Step 2 - It would not be true, because you have no evidence for it, that what had occurred before the big bang is not the cause of the Big Bang. Since we all observe nothing in nature happens all by itself (Step 2), then it is only fictitious to think the law of cause and effects breaks down before the Big Bang, at the Big Bang or after the Big Bang. An singularity that might exist is a natural phenomenon in the law of nature; hence, because nature can't cause itself, therefore, the uncreated Creator must be the cause of the first cause in nature.

Many atheists and agnostics tell me that the big bang happened all by itself to try to disprove God of the Bible, that is why Step 2 is needed. Just as many atheists and agnostics tell me there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects which is why Step 1 is needed. Now then, the evidence of the big bang not having happened all by itself tells us that Step 2 is true, since nothing in nature happens all by itself, including the Big Bang, then the only possibility would be the Uncreated creator did it.

Step 3 - The Proof of the existence of God is given in Step 1 and Step 2. If these things were not true, then you could disprove them, but notice you can't. The existence of some god is not the issue before us, but the whether God of the Bible is the uncreated Creator. Do you see how you make that mistake still talking about some god that does not have the qualities of God of the Bible?

Step 4 is not Step 1 again, for notice Step 4 deals with the supernatural, if it exists, while Step 1 focuses only on the natural. As the Proof rounds out once you get to Step 4 you come right back to Step 1 still unable to disprove the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible.

We must therefore conclude the reason you do not come to the cross of Christ is because you are too selfish to do so. You like to remain in your sin nature and overtaken by worldly things and follow in Satan's footsteps. This has been your choice. Since you will never receive Christ as your Lord and Savior, you would need to spend eternity in hell. Just be honest with yourself this is what you want and you prefer to remain a bad person.