Israel Defending Itself

[Churchwork]

Your [unsaved soul] biggest issue seems to be that of Israel defending itself and somehow 20,000 Israelites surviving more than a dozen nations partaking in child sacrifices that sought to eradicate Israel because they knew Israel was God's chosen people. One sorta picks up on the clue that if generation after generation they don't stop this heinous sin, that something radical needs to be done and for the very survival of Israel. This was not required in every case, but I think just in those most vile situations. It is very sad this had to be done, but it was necessary.:crymore:

Well as I have already noticed from your previous postings that you don't get the point and what you just said there verifies it. And you may never.

You see Brooks, it is like this. Neither a little self appointed spokesmen for someone else's ancient tribal gods nor a ancient book of fiction can ever justify the killing of children or genocide. It just can not.
On the contrary, you don't get the point, so please respond to the answer supplied and not repeat yourself, for that would be belligerent. First, the Bible is not a book of fiction, for it never comes across that way. Paul in his travels didn't make them up. Since no scholar would agree with you, you're on your own in your hostility that the Bible is purely fiction. You don't have a leg to stand on.

Israel did not worship tribal gods. They worshipped the creator who is proven in the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm).

Nor have I appointed myself spokesman, but God has chosen me and He did so before the foundations of the world. I didn't realize this until after I was saved. The God of Israel is the God of the Bible is the same God I have fellowship with through Christ. This God who is uncreated is not the god Israel worships today however, for they have rejected Christ as their own prophecies foretold they would.

Can you see the two mistakes you just made in your words regarding tribal gods and and self-appointment? Don't form an argument by misrepresenting. Christians don't self-appoint ourselves, but we fulfill the condition set by God to come to the cross to receive His saving grace. If you were right that the ultimate God of Israel is several tribal gods, then the burden of the proof is on you to show it rather than self-declare it.

What does Jesus say?

"Ye did not choose me, but I chose you” (John 15.16). How can He do this?

Because, Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!" (John 8.58).

I am glad, so glad, that all you can do is accuse blindly, but you don't have anything to back up your hostility and reviling.

Of all the nations of the world, why was Israel the first nation to reveal Himself to?

"Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, [was] four hundred and thirty years" (Ex. 12.40).

They were in slavery longer than any other nation, so their hearts were open to listen to God for the truth. You might say, they weren't really slaves.

Yet, God said, "I am the LORD your God, who rescued you from slavery in Egypt" (Ex. 20.2).

An example will help to understand how desperate this situation was. Israel would go to war to defend itself from these vile nations, and what they found was generation after generation no matter how many people they had to kill IN DEFENSE, those evil nations would continue to come again to war. If they killed everyone over 20 who was just male that wasn't good enough. The next generation if they killed all boys and men above 10 years of age, that was not good enough, because they would come back again after they spent another generation of sacrificing their own children in the fiery mouth of the god of Molech. Imagine taking your child and throwing him or her into the flames to appease your god. Maybe some still do this today figuratively speaking. Now even the next generation, they still came to try to kill off Israel, so Israel killed all the boys, no matter how old they were. Yet somehow the women managed to resurrect their evil nations worshipping Isis, so Israel had no choice but to destroy the women too which was for their very survival, being such a small number of people of only about 20,000. This is how much fighting took place and how evil these nations were in their child sacrifices. It further substantiates that deaths due to war on a per capita basis was horrendous back then. Today, deaths due to war per capita are not as bad, so this helps give us a feel for the exponential progression in conscience. This progression tells us that we would not still be sinning now if this exponential progression was continuing from an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Hence, the uncreated created which is God of the Bible since none can compare to Christ.

Your problem is you don't appreciate how bad the situation is, so you use it as a lame excuse to reject God of the Bible, but you will be judged for your misrepresenting the dire situation because of your selfishness and hostility to God. I have told you the truth. Remember though, this was only required in the rarest of instances, not towards everyone Israel had come across. Recall when Israel entered Canaan it first wrote a letter to the peoples there to ask that it may enter with evidence it is their long standing dwelling in which Abraham had first laid claim to the land given to him by God.

Those evil nations don't exist today, and Israel remains in which Jacob and David are the fathers of Jesus as a man. You're arguing for the team that already lost because of their hate and evil ways. If Israel was wiped out, which is what you are proposing Israel should have allowed by not taking the action it took, then Jesus would have never been born. Yet He was born, He does say He is God, He does say His death was to pay the ransom, He was resurrected, and multiply attested.

Genocide is wrong killing of people. What Israel did was not wrong. It was either the actions they took or they would cease to exist. That's the choice. Don't confuse self-defense with genocide. Hitler's genocide was not in self-defense, because his existence was not threatened by Jewish people. Israel on the other hand would cease to exist as a people if they did not defend themselves. The difference is worlds apart, so let us pay careful attention to how Satan accuses. He will confuse such things. He operates in the spirits of the unsaved. He is the most evil spirit that ever existed.

You need to understand that _you_ don't get to decide that someone is so 'vile' and 'heinous' that their children must be killed. I don't give you that power over me and that would be the only way you or anyone else could assume it. Your fictional god only has that power over those who give it him as well.
Today, if there was a wild nation of people like zombies that would run at you with a knife and anyone that came within their sphere of influence, it is quite possible they may need to be annihilated, but no such thing even comes close to happening.

Israel did not want to kill off nations, but it was God's requirement. Since Israel failed in fully doing so, they had lost their land of Israel and went into exile of Babylonian captivity.

Do you see the mistake you are making? You are comparing some unknown situation today to back then, but I know of no such situation today that we can compare to as like zombies running at you with knives ready to cut your throat and teaching their children to do the same. If a suicide mass murderer from Islam runs at you ready to blow themselves up and you, then you got to take them out if you have the ability to do so.

So there is no situation to compare to today, unless of course you have children, and you all run at me with bombs packed to your side and I happen to be able to defend myself. I would take you out whether you run at me or someone else, because what you would be doing is evil. This is not assumed. If you are reallying doing this, then the response would be deemed appropriate.

Since God of the Bible is proven in the 4 Step Proof for God, then to do His will is most appropriate and to His good pleasure. Hence, if you got some evil nations that will never cease what they are doing, then back then, it was necessary to take them out, even children if the nation was that evil and that relentless generation after generation, because those children would continue to grow up and do the same thing. That's all they know how to do because they are surrounded by a child sacrifice system.

It may help you to understand this by thinking of the flood in Noah's day. It was a local flood that killed many people, because those people were so utterly corrupted. Similarly, Gen. 1.2 we see God made the earth desolate and waste because of the sin of the inhabitants of earth's earliest ages. Again, God wiped them out completely. Those included in the desolation are what we refer to as demons today because they are now, as a result, disembodied spirits. The demons and fallen angels will never repent, so they must go to hell which for mankind is called the second death. You may accuse God of being too harsh, but His response is perfectly righteous. How can they and those like yourself be allowed to be with the saved in the new city and new earth? It would make God unholy if he allowed you to go where we are going.

It can be hard to understand this, but it becomes easier to understand when you realize how utterly deprave these people were. That's why I use the zombie analogy, even young children zombies. Though young children if they did not reach the age of accountability (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Household.htm), they would be saved the Bible says.

Since these things that happened were not my decision, nor Israel's, and they did come to pass, and the results are in, the findings remain that it was necessary, because after 2500 years, Israel has reclaimed her homeland as prophesied (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3913#post3913). The prophecy has been fulfilled! Your child sacrificing nations lost and you lose along with them in your defending them.

Ezekiel 36:8-10, the prophet Ezekiel said that the people of Israel would return, rebuild and repopulate their fallen cities. Ezekiel, according to the Bible, lived about 2600 years ago during the time of the Babylonian Captivity, when many Jews, including Ezekiel, were taken as captives to Babylon. After the Babylonian Captivity ended, many Jews returned to their homeland. But about 1900 years ago, the Jews again were forced into exile, this time by the Romans. However, since the late 1800s, millions of Jews have returned to their ancient homeland. And, once again, they have been rebuilding and repopulating their ancient cities. In 1948, there were about 600,000 Jews living in Israel. Today there are about 6,000,000.

Ezekiel 36:8-10
"`But you, O mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, and I will multiply the number of people upon you, even the whole house of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.

Therefore, we must conclude based on the above reasoning your god of hostility to God of the Bible is a fictional god.

"The net result is those several nations do not exist today, nor their child sacrificing, whereas Israel remains and more than 20,000 souls."

You're deluded into thinking that the Bible is history. It is not.
Since you can't find anything historically wrong with the Bible and there is more than ample archaeological, secular and other Christian sources corroborating the historical Jesus, it i quite obvious, therefore, to conclude that you are just being belligerent and obstinate. God cuts off the conversation when you leave the body of flesh and blood and await to be resurrected in hades to be eternally separated in hell away from God and His people. How sad for you.

I have to give you an infraction for mindless self-declarations. When you post at least try to back it up with something instead of sitting on your prideful pedestal.

"...to their homeland after 2500 years as prophesied. When they do this spells the time of end-times."

Most resemblance to Christian 'end-time' teachings and current events is contrived but it is largely due to current events being cast to resemble prophecy not the other way around. There is no supernatural. The 'end-times' have been the day after tomorrow since the story was first told.

Israel really has returned to her homeland. However much you think this is contrived you have to consider this quite an amazing feat. Just look at Israel on the map smothered by Islamic countries, yet there it remains like a light in this dark world. As Israel is continually attacked it will gain more and more land. You know the principle of Islam is to wipe Israel off the land into the Mediterranean then from the face of the earth. This is not unlike the evil nations in Canaan long ago, except this time Israel does not have the ability nor the calling from God to kill every last soul in Islam because as much as this is the goal of Islam against Jewish people, they are not as vile as were those nations long ago partaking in child sacrifices. This continues to speak of the exponential progression of conscience.

End-times have never been perceived as the day after tomorrow, but right perspective is to feel and believe that Christ could return any day now and to believe this even more so than ever before because of this amazing prophecy fulfilled that Israel has returned to her homeland after 2500 years.

"Such response by God ..."

Nothing you have said could possibly justify the killing of children and entire peoples. And because you can't understand that you're a morally bankrupt religious fanatic. Only the unbalanced see the deaths of children and genocide as 'permissible' under any circumstances.

I'm sorry that you can't see that. It isn't that I'm concerned that it is bad for you but rather how bad it is for people you come in contact with who need genuine help.
As was explained in rare cases even the killing of children and entire peoples was necessary, because they were like knife wielding zombies that would not cease their onslaughts as they came in hoards to attack Israel. I believe you are morally bankrupt for using this as a lame excuse to reject God of the Bible when you still can't find anything wrong with the 4 Step Proof of God of the Bible, nor appreciate God's desire for the survival of good nations. What about present day examples? There are others. USA had to nuke Japan in WWII, because they had this quality of never ceasing their lust for world domination militarily. And I think many Japanese are radically changed to not think in those terms anymore, because of what they went through. Many infants died in those two nuclear explosions. Thank God World War II did not continue on for years and possible decades longer.

You are fanatically religious in your hatred of God of the Bible. That makes no difference; you won't be able to avoid hell no matter how much your anger and despising increases. God made you, so you can't circumvent Him with your imagination and fantasies to misrepresent reality.

Nobody wants the death of children such as in WWII, but there is the unfortunate fallout from having to do something that is the only option. We would not be where we are today in flourish democracies if some of the hard choices were not made.

Now, I have given you an example, even from recent times, of infants dying in the fallout of stopping evil. Since you are unable to show otherwise with explanation, realize that you are morally bankrupt and corrupted in your reasoning. Please do not respond with repetition of your idea without anything to back it up, for the burden of the proof is on you now, so you will need to bring in some evidence for your side. Of course it doesn't exist.

Of course it is wrong to kill children. Nobody disputes that, but I have given you examples where children died on the process of war as an unfortunate consequence of battling evil. Evil people will use children as human shields too. I am glad what happened before does not happen anymore, because child sacrifices have ceased to exist. Though I am sure your father Satan will try to reinstate child sacrifices in some form or another.

As I had said in my previous message to you...Such response by God through Israel would no longer be needed ever again of course, because firstly, Israel rejects God, and secondly, there are no nations performing child sacrifices except in Islam, but it is a form of sacrifice that is not directly putting them on an altar and slitting their throats or throwing them in the fire of the god of Molech, so the response is not the same. Today, Islam's child sacrifices however brainwashed are willing participants in their hostility to God of the Bible and in calling Jesus a liar, just like you. Do you share their same racism against white people in a religion of non-whites?

[trainedobserver]

Well like I said. You wouldn't get it. Your ideas of what is 'moral' and 'right' are contrary to basic human morality.
Number one on the list of forbidden acts in a civilized community is, "Don't kill or otherwise harm innocent children".
Another is, "Individuals pay for their crimes, not their children."

[Churchwork]

I have more than proven the immorality of the Jewish God in calling for the killing of children for land.

What the parents of the children may or may not were doing has no bearing on it.

The whole business began in Egypt and it was about inheriting the promised land, not going to Canaan to kill bad guys. To say otherwise is an obvious rationalization to cover up the horrible truth.

Your inability to see this is not my fault.

You may take your 'infractions' and insert them where the sun doesn't shine and rotate vigorously.
You're applying Satan's rationalization to your heart, for it is not about land, but a nation of people, the first nation, that was willing to listen to God. Forced child sacrifices have since stopped. Praise the Lord! You're sinning one of the worst sins known to mankind which is placed right next to the other worst ones: "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Matt. 15.19). Coyly, you're still defending child sacrifices.

Notice how you overlooked the scenario provided for you. Therefore, you're shutting your mind down. Not so trained or observing correctly.

Again, if your next door neighbor was practicing child sacrifice rituals and killing a child each month, but the police could not find the evidence and nobody was willing to do anything about it, what would you do?

Now suppose generation after generation your household killed off the parents and let the children live, but as they grew older they performed the same act of child sacrifice on their own children. This happened enough times, generation after generation, to realize the only solution is to kill the children (a very rare case). Not only this, but they continued to break into your own house and kill your family in your sleep at younger and younger ages as this is the trend, generation after generation. You begin to realize the rule, "Individuals pay for their crimes, not their children", does not depict this situation, because the children are guilty. Hence, you have sinned bearing false witness. Satan is a tricky one isn't he?

Since there is no known cases where this is the thing to do today, you can't compare then to now. The exponential progression in conscience is such that mankind doesn't perform child sacrifices except in a new form by child suicide mass murderers in Islam, though not on an altar unwillingly.

Perhaps this is the sickest rationalization known to mankind.

Since the other rule, "Don't kill or otherwise harm innocent children" also does not apply, because these murderous children with hearts intent on child sacrifices are not innocent unless otherwise shown.

I certainly don't get your idea of what is 'moral' and 'right' as being in agreement with basic human morality. In every society I am aware of when an evil person is attempting to murder someone else, a person has a right to defend themselves.

Try to not repeat yourself mindlessly, but respond to what I actually said. Again, this warrants an infraction, because you are being belligerent and obstinate.

The obvious prediction is this: you will continue to repeat yourself and overlook the scenario because this has been the trend you willingly and seemingly can't escape, for you like being possessed by the demonic spirit that is behind this deception. This is intellectually dishonest and unethically disingenuous. My prayer though is the prediction is wrong eventually and you repent to Christ by coming to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Only then will you be born anew as God's new creation having died with your old man in the old creation on the cross with Christ and resurrected with new life.


Don't pray for me. It has been shown that far from 'positive' results, pray often makes things worse. Google 'Mayo Clinic Prayer Study'.

There is no god or gods. There is no supernatural. There is no need for salvation from death much less the need for a ghastly 'human sacrifice'.

All living things die and remain dead. You have one life to live and then nothing. You can waste it wrapped up in the fantasy world of Christianity like I did for over 30 years or you can deal with the world as it really is and works, which is much more interesting and wonderful than the 'supernatural'.

Being honest with myself had two major benefits as I saw it. One, I was no longer wasting time and energy on a fruitless enterprise and two, I was no longer leading others into error.

Faith is by its very nature an exercise in Intellectual Dishonesty. Having come to an understanding of that myself I was no longer able to employ it. My unbelief is not volitional. I do not believe any longer because the evidence I possess suggests those beliefs were false.

A 'seeker' must above all things be honest with himself. If he is not, then he has no real hope at all. I am being honest with myself. There is no evidence that the supernatural exists and quite a mountain to the contrary. To ignore that is plainly dishonest and self-delusional. The worst offense of course is that one would lead others into self-delusion and self-dishonesty. I shutter to think of the number of Christian's I had a hand in making.

Your pride in lording over your board is pretty obvious. Your religion is of no effect in your life in the most fundamental areas. Honesty and due diligence being just a couple. Before you can 'believe' the right things you have to learn how to 'think' about them correctly. You need a great deal of work in that area. It won't magically be bestowed on you, you'll have to work for it. It is worth it however. When you realize what you've allowed to be done to you, you'll see how important proper critical thinking, logic, reason, and knowledge of logical fallacies are. I wish you luck.
I can't respond to some unspecified claim you make about prayer, but the evidence is quite strong for prayer. If there are miracles at present, this moves the playing field up further as well to open us up to other things and let go of self. There was a double-blind experiment done of 400 cardiac patients. Half were prayed for and the other half were not prayed for. They monitored these patience in 26 categories. The ones that were prayed for were statistically better: "A study of 400 cardiac patients found that in 21 out of 26 categories were better as a result of prayer" (Southern Journal of Medicine). Scientists and the medical community have established this is medically significant. Other evidences are well documented by Gary R. Habermas.

Since nothing in nature happens all by itself, you know nature didn't cause itself. Since there has been this exponential progression of conscience it would not take an eternity to reach sinlessness. Therefore, there was not an eternity of the past of cause and effects, and logic concludes the uncaused or uncreated caused and created. The Bible deems gods as merely idols like wood or stone. Since it is not the natural that is the cause, then it is the supernatural that caused. Salvation is not from death preeminently, but it is salvation from sin and self. You were born into sin for no man has never not sinned. Since sin and selfishness leads to death, death is also overcome to receive life. Because your soul can't be annihilated, it shall be resurrected. You're intrinsic value to God, not instrumental value: means to an end. May you see how God is personal. Because all sin needs to be judged and punished, and you can't overcome sin yourself because your flesh is utterly corrupted and can't be refined, fixed or changed, therefore, a ransom must be paid to redeem you from yourself. This is my prayer for you to receive God's saving grace.

You said you were wrapped up in Christianity for 30 years, but know you were never born-again in any one of those thirty years, because you reject Christ now. This is a proof that you are going to hell. The real world is Satan is god of this world, and you are under him, because you don't accept reality. Perhaps you are financially tied to the world, or through sex, or friendships, family, and activities. It makes no difference. No matter how hard you cling to the "good self", it ain't so good, because you still call Jesus a liar without just cause for doing so after He fully proves Himself to you. Your preference is to remain a bad person bound for hell even though in your spirit you have God-consciousness and know God has told you the truth through His only begotten Son. As they say it is better to reign in hell than be obedient to God in heaven. I would disagree based on the evidence.

It is fantasy to think you will just cease to exist. You may think this is your escape, but it is really your excuse to remain in sin. Look around you. Know that human beings are so distinctively unique from all other known creatures. It is not difficult at all to see God has great plans in store for those who love him; for those who don't, conscious awareness in hell forever for their wrong choice is their undoing. Take an extreme example. If somebody builds 10 nuclear bombs and blows up 10 cities because someone pays him 10 billion dollars to do it, then he builds himself an island and lives on it protected for the rest of his life on earth with no real great consequences, then where is the consequence of his sin? It is in the after life. In other words, you don't get away with anything, no matter how small or big. No matter how lame your tiny excuse is, to God it is just as independent to Him as any other sin.

Often times the world can SEEM more interesting than one who is in Christ, but perceptions are deceiving, for the mind is darkened and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit.

Are you really being honest with yourself? Since nothing in nature happens all by itself, why believe in puff the magic dragon it happened all by itself? or an eternity of the past of cause and effects, when there would not still be sin now due to the exponential progression in conscience? Consequently, you continue to engage in fruitless endeavors of trying to disprove God when He is proven, and you continue to try to maintain people in deception and lost as unregenerates.

Notice how you profess intellectual honestly, but have not supplied anywhere here any reason for rejecting your creator. That is intellectually dishonest . our choice is volitional to continue as you have always done to reject our Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing has changed. You remain the same bad person bound for hell, so John 3.18 says you're already condemned. By volition. Don't self-declare you have proof against God of the Bible, but it is incumbent upon you to show it, for the burden of the proof is on you to respond to the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm) of the Bible specifically.

Faith by its very nature if true is grounded in the evidence for the need for it and God of the Bible who gives it by making you in His image to have it. Your faith though is false, since it has no basis except hostility, disobedience and independence to God and the proof of God in the 4 Steps.

If you are a 'seeker' and reject God of the Bible, then you would need to show at least one thing to disprove God of the Bible; alas, you do not, you only say you can. I do fret at how many people you tried to lead to some false Christ when you thought you were a Christian, but were not. The Bible accounts for this condition by referring to you as the 'tares' that are unsaved, but try to look like the saved wheat. Study in Matthew 13 about the tares who are in the kingdom of heaven (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_13.htm) (it's outward appearance), but were never in the church-body of Christ. That must have been tough on you to pretend for 30 years, but you did it to yourself. Now you hope to lead Christians away from Christ, but that is impossible as any thing could be, because once-saved-always-saved. God makes no mistakes in saving people with eternal life. When He gives His uncreated life, it remains forever, for His foreknowledge is infinite! He is all-knowing.

There is no lording over Biblocality Forums in giving you infractions when you mindlessly repeat yourself without responding to the answers given. I would expect someone to treat me the same if I behaved as you do. In the most fundamental area of life you're an abject failure, because you don't have God's life, but cling to your own selfish desires apart from God who created you. What an empty existence that must be. I was once unsaved too remember, so I can easily always compare what it is to be like you to what I am now. Ask yourself why I never go back to being unsaved as you are now. What is in the sense of my spirit that keeps me where I am? The Holy Spirit. In your spirit remains the evil spirit and it is born out every time you speak. A saved person without even mentioning Christ can sense your spirit is dead to God in your words and actions. It is not difficult. If you were in a coffee shop and I was overhearing your conversation, I could likely within just a few minutes know you were going to hell. How you respond to Christ today is how God will treat you in eternity.

There is no luck at play here. It is your volitional choice to remain an unregenerate. When you realize all these words you use about logic and reason, where is the reason and logic in rejecting the proof for God of the Bible, when you don't supply a reason? So Jesus says He will make a liar out of you. It is coming to bear already. Just know you don't have to remain as you are. You can change by the grace of God.