This is Essentially God's Proof of Himself

[Churchwork]

It is not that you don't have a spirit of God-consciousness and to have the choice in being made in God's image, for obviously even you know you have such a choice. You are not a robot preprogrammed to reject God of the Bible. Rather, it is that you have shut your mind down to the 4 Step Perfect Proof (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm) if you still reject it. It is not that proof is even perfect in God's eyes for in God's eyes a thing can always be improved usually, but according to human standards it is as perfect as anything there is. That is, it is 99.99% perfect so close to being perfect, that is why you can't find anything wrong with it, nor can I. For example, in the Guinness book of records the lawyer who won the most legal cases in a row (245) has said that the case for the deity, death and resurrection of Jesus is the best case he has ever seen. I would agree, and he has more credibility than you, since you don't provide anything substantial. Again here is the 4 Step Proof as you seem to get away from it so easily in your head (speaking to someone who still has trouble accepting). Even most scholars (both Christian and non-Christian) are agreed on some basic things: that Jesus thought He was uniquely uncreated from everlasting the Son of God in the Godhead as One Being with the Father, definitely died on the cross, was buried in the tomb, the apostles thought they truly saw the risen Jesus as did Paul, and that they were martyred for proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus.

Let's review the 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm) again:

1) If you propose an eternity of the past of cause and effects, we can say this is not possible, because obviously you would have had an eternity of the past to be perfected, yet you still sin, so this is not possible, and therefore, you had to have been created by the uncreated at some point. Given the exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years it won't take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved. This is the law of calculus. Now considering Christ to all others we see He is unique, so unique in fact, none can usurp Him in all His qualities and attributes, therefore one would be blessed for receiving His atonement to receive eternal life.

2) The non-believer then says why can't it have started at the big bang or singularity all by itself? Because nothing in nature happens all by itself. Everything has a cause, so therefore, the uncaused must be the ultimate cause of all things, and none fit that description by comparison more than God of the Bible. You will find any discussion that ever takes place, the Christian always wins because we have the foundation of proof of the apostles in agreement they saw Jesus resurrected. Powerful stuff!

3) Ok fine, but I would like to argue against certain qualities of your god. Sure, you may do that but please don't argue against things of God of the Bible that are not His qualities because then you would be arguing against some other god, and that would be disingenuous.

4) Fine, but why can't there be gods creating gods in the eternity of the past so your God is created? Again, go back to step #3 because then you would be arguing against some other god who is created, and you would not be arguing against the uncreated God of the Bible which is His quality. Plus, the same rule of step #1 applies too that if there was an eternity of the past of gods creating gods then you would have had an eternity to be without sin. Yet you still sin.

Praise the Lord for this discernment!

[Churchwork]

fstdt: For instance, we could imagine that planets have come into existence at all different points of time across the timeline of the universe, and that each of those civilizations has existed for only a finite amount of time in the infinitely existing universe; that would certainly explain the existing sin in the infinite universe. In this way, an infinitely existing universe is consistent with civilizations that have only existed for a finite amount of time.

My response: you totally missed the point. The point is that anything that is created from an infinity of the past would have approximated to infinity itself, therefore anything would have had an infinity to be perfected without sin. This is what calculus teaches, that anything approximating infinity is deemed itself infinity. You're slow eh? Anyway, you can see I can do this with everyone of your comments, but should I? If you have been wrong more than 100 times in a row, should I correct your thousands of mistakes too? Humility says you are wrong and would prefer to go to hell. Should I cast what is holy unto dogs? Probably not, for the Bible says not to. By the way, the Bible does say if you search God with all your heart, yes, you will find him.

"And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart" (Jer. 29.13). Since you are still unsaved, it is because you have not searched him with all your heart, but hold back for yourself your selfish desires to keep yourself independent from him.

fstdt: We could also imagine a universe which has recurring Bangs and Crunches, which cycle for eternity. So that, the reason why sin still exists is because no civilization has ever had a chance to evolve for an infinite period of time; each Bang and Crunch causes everything in the universe to start all over again.

My response: This recycling process, if it exists is also bound by the same law of eternity of the past of cause and effects, such that you would have had an eternity to be perfected, so therefore, it is not possible there is an eternity of recyclings. And to assume recycling is just assuming it for its own sake without evidence; quite unlike the evidence that exists for the fact that we have seen an exponential progression in the conscience of the saved these past 6000 years so it will not take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved. Do not take such a small sample of a few generations, for that would be disingenuous. If sin is going to percolate down to 10 generations, then this time must pass before further progress is made.

fstdt: Finally, we can say that the presumption that humans evolve into a "sinless" state is unfounded. Obviously, if Brooks believes in things such as original sin, then he cannot believe by definition that humans could evolve into a sinless state; he can say that we may come closer and closer to a sinless state, but never achieve it no matter if they’ve existed for eternity or not.

My response: Where did I say humans evolved into a sinless state? I know of no such thing, since it has not happened yet. But those who are saved are being perfected to sinlessness and not by evolution, for evolution is the physical development since the amoeba and itself has no explanation of what came before the first celled creature. It is merely the body from "dust" (Gen 2.7). And we are also more than physical, we are also soulical and spiritual; that is we have a mind, will and emotion that is unique in creation and an intuition, conscience and communion with our creator that is also unique. Based on the exponential progression of our conscience these past 6000 years seeing the improvement towards perfection is not presumed, but this constitutes a proof. What proof do you have to suggest otherwise? Amen.