Not Believing In Rapture Due To Unsalvation

[Churchwork]

If You Don't Believe in the Rapture, You are Probably Not a Christian

If you don't believe in the rapture, the Holy Spirit never revealed it to you because you are probably not a Christian. If you don't know about the rapture soon after being saved, then I dare say you probably were not saved to begin with, for Jesus was raptured: "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven" (Mark 16.19). "And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven" (Luke 24.51; Acts 1.11 and Rev. 1.7 confirm this).

How do the saints get to the throne in 3rd heaven? Not by magic, but by rapture: "stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands" (Rev. 7.9). Many do not have faith to believe this, so they reject the rapture. There are lots of false Christians out there. Be careful! Don't let them deceive you.

At the last trumpet, all who are alive and left will be "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4.17). This is rapture.

"Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world" (Rev. 3.10). This keeping can not be promised by escaping death, but must be a rapture for those Christians who keep the word of His patience. If a Christian is on Earth, he can not be promised no martyrdom. Therefore, the only way God can make this promise is to rapture.

[Jonah]

Where did you learn of a rapture from?
I can't find it in the bible. :nah:
Harpazo does not mean rapture.
Harpazo means snatched away from what ever place that is mentioned and delivered to the other place that is mentioned. In the Scripture of 1 Thessalonians 4 They are snatched away from death and the ground of earth. Then delivered into Life and the Clouds in the Sky of earth to appear to be coming with Christ at His return. Then in 1 Corinthians 1 and Matthew 24 we learn that it will only take an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, in a moment. As the Lightning that flashes.
Then we Go to Joel 2 and Matthew for the Scriptures that tells what happens next.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Corinthians 151 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Joel 2
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand:
2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.
3 A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them.
4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like swift steeds, so they run. 5 With a noise like chariots Over mountaintops they leap, Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble, Like a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before them the people writhe in pain; All faces are drained of color.
7 They run like mighty men, They climb the wall like men of war; Every one marches in formation, And they do not break ranks.
8 They do not push one another; Every one marches in his own column. Though they lunge between the weapons, They are not cut down.
9 They run to and fro in the city, They run on the wall; They climb into the houses, They enter at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.
11 The Lord gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

Matthew 13
41 The Son of Man will send out His Messengers, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

[Churchwork]

How do those in Rev. 7.9 get to the throne in heaven if they are not raptured? How do those in 1 Thess. 4.15-17 at the last trumpet meet the Lord in the air if they are not raptured?

1 Cor. 15 speaks of resurrection and change (not rapture), that is, we shall all finally be changed by a final point in the blink of an eye; whereas 1 Thess. 4 talks of resurrection and rapture.

Just think of rapture as the process God uses to get from point A to point B, and resurrection as being given newly clothed spiritual bodies, because none can come before the High Priest Naked.

In Matt. 24.40,41, those "taken" are raptured, but those "left" are also raptured at the start of the last trumpet. First rapture is according to readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.42) and last trumpet resurrection and rapture is the final harvest (1 Cor. 15.23).

What makes me believe the final harvest rapture is not at the end of the 84 months, but is at the start of the last trumpet (3rd and last woe) of 24 months (84 months of the 7 year Trib LESS 42 months of first half of the Trib LESS 5 months of first woe LESS 13 months of 2nd woe)? It's because of this verse which is pre-wrath, before the 7 bowls of the last trumpet are poured,

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11.15). In the twinkling of an eye. It is with the 7th angel of the 7th trumpet that begins the bowls pouring out for 24 months. The final harvest will be raptured before that occurs.

[Jonah]

How do those in Rev. 7.9 get to the throne in heaven if they are not raptured? How do those in 1 Thess. 4.15-17 at the last trumpet meet the Lord in the air if they are not raptured?

1 Cor. 15 speaks of resurrection and change (not rapture), that is, we shall all finally be changed by a final point in the blink of an eye; whereas 1 Thess. 4 talks of resurrection and rapture.

Just think of rapture as the process God uses to get from point A to point B, and resurrection as being given newly clothed spiritual bodies, because none can come before the High Priest Naked.

In Matt. 24.40,41, those "taken" are raptured, but those "left" are also raptured at the start of the last trumpet. First rapture is according to readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.42) and last trumpet resurrection and rapture is the final harvest (1 Cor. 15.23).

What makes me believe the final harvest rapture is not at the end of the 84 months, but is at the start of the last trumpet (3rd and last woe) of 24 months (84 months of the 7 year Trib LESS 42 months of first half of the Trib LESS 5 months of first woe LESS 13 months of 2nd woe)? It's because of this verse which is pre-wrath, before the 7 bowls of the last trumpet are poured,

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11.15). In the twinkling of an eye. It is with the 7th angel of the 7th trumpet that begins the bowls pouring out for 24 months. The final harvest will be raptured before that occurs.

The throne comes to earth when Christ returns.:yes: That is how those in revelation get before the throne. If you notice it does not say the throne is in heaven.

Where is the throne of heaven in this scripture?

Matthew 25
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy Messengers with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Where does the origin of "the rapture", that you speak of, come from? You have not showed any scripture that says anything about a rapture. :nah:

[Churchwork]

As I already said, you can interpolate the rapture by one instance being raised up to the throne from whence you were not. We call this rapture. God is well pleased with this word as He calls us to overcometh by being ready. How can we be accounted worthy according to readiness? Keep the word of His patience, be watchful and prayerful so that you may escape all these things that shall come upon the whole earth in the hour of trial (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.42).

Matthew 25.31 does refer to the throne on earth in Jerusalem, but the throne of God is in heaven right now, and today the Son sits on His Father's throne.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" (Rev. 3.21).

To my knowledge, Biblocality Forums is the only forums that promotes accurately salvation at new birth and salvation in overcoming in Christ unto rewards. Everyone else it seems is arguing between salvation by works or salvation redemption by what Jesus did in shedding His blood.

"Standing before the throne and before the Lamb"—Since Rev. 4.2 reads that "there was a throne set in heaven", those who now stand before the throne here must have arrived in heaven.

Please note that 7.9-17 narrates the period from the rapture (the first rapture) to eternity (the new heaven and the new earth). What is described in 7.15-17 depicts the same scene as is found in 21.3-7.

Note also that 7.9-17 only deals with rapture generally, not exclusively; and neither does it speak exclusively of the scene of eternal blessing. Consequently, we must not conclude that what is given here is indicative of the rapture of the whole church once and for all; for nothing is said as to how this vast multitude got there, it only states that they are there.

7.9 "After these things . . . , standing before the throne and before the Lamb"—This word implies that before the opening of the seventh seal there must be a rapture. Jesus does not return on His figurative white horse until Rev. 19 which gives the details of the end of Rev. 11).

Did Jesus teach the rapture? See the You Tube videos by Dave Hunt: (1) Did Jesus Teach The Rapture? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeOQWgWZp-E) and (2) Do You Still Believe in the Rapture? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeOQWgWZp-E)

Jesus said He is going away to heaven to His Father's house to prepare a place for His disciples. There is no way this can happen unless He catches people unto Himself. 1 Thess. 4 says the dead in Christ will rise first. To be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air is rapture. We Christians do not know what Bible those who deny this are reading. Paul says in 1 Cor. 15 we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. Who are these who do not sleep? Those who are are "alive" and "left" (1 Thess. 4.15,17).

There is a judgment seat in heaven that Christians go to before returning to earth to reign in the kingdom. And Zech 14 clearly says His feet touch the mount of olives and brings the saints with Him. (see also Jude 14,15). We are not Messianic Kingdom. The Messianic Kingdom does not get raptured, but Israel receives her covenant promise to be the center of all nations. Don't confuse this promise with the promise for overcomer believers to reign on earth in returning with Christ.

Are you a Roman Catholic or some other persuasion denominationally? The Catholic Church would be out of business if it taught the rapture. The Reformers carried with them the same false teaching of no rapture, and they taught the false teaching of calvinism. In the second video by Dave Hunt, Dave is wrong about something, that the whole church is raptured at one instant and that there is no loss of rewards ("outer darkness") for believers who do not receive the reward of reigning with Christ in the 1000 years (they are not included in the "first resurrection" Rev. 20.4). He cites the reason the RC is wrong is because if people go to purgatory when they die, they are not raptured at once together. That is faulty reasoning, because he assumes the church is raptured all at once. But as we have seen, there is a rapture before the Tribulation as well as a rapture at the end of the Tribulation. There is even rapture of the Two Witnesses at a different time, martyrs in Christ through the rapture are raptured individually, and rapture of the gleanings, that is, any who were not rapture at the start of the last trumpet, shall be raptured individually through the last trumpet. The reason you should reject purgatory is because first rapture does not take place until the start of the Tribulation and because paying for indulgences is silly.

Dave Hunt is also wrong in the price paid by Jesus to reject loss of rewards. This is antinomian, but in God's design He has set up consequences in the time of recompense, so it is true, some believers, though they cannot lose lose eternal life, shall not return with Christ in the 1000 years. Do all Christians fit into the three categories of Revelation 20.4? Of course not. Do all Christians keep the Word of His patience? Of course not. Three times the phrase "outer darkness" is given which has no fire or furnace about it which points to loss of rewards. Wait and see. Dave Hunt though saved will be surprised I am sure. He will lose the reward of reigning during the 1000 years. Jesus saved us which gives us eternal life and can never be lost, but there is still the side of the cross in co-death identification to accept we have died with Christ and bear our crosses daily.

[Jonah]

I am self taught. I knew nothing of what anyone else in the world believed before I had read the bible many times in many translations in many languages. I only studied the bible i don't know why I never read any other books for the first seven years But I did not. From the time I started paying attention to what other believed I have found that there are few who have not been bastardized by the Catholic doctrines of Angels, Heaven, Hell, i have found none to date that have not perverted the Gospel of Christ by having Christ founded on the Catholics false beliefs.
For instance "The third Heaven" There is one scripture that mentions "third Heaven". There is no other explanation in scripture any where.
Now the catholics have conjured up three levels of heaven out of one vague scripture and every one else has fallen into the catholic pit of lies.

Paul mentions a third heaven. Then John mentions The first heaven passing away before the new heaven is created.

In revelation 4:2 John was in the Spirit And saw things in heaven and earth. Was the lamb and the 144,000 also in heaven or were they on Mount zion on the farthest parts of the north?
Rev
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
psalms
2 Beautiful in elevation, The joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, The city of the great King.

[Churchwork]

Don't think the Roman Church is always wrong. Probably because you did not consult with 2 or 3 in agreement, and only read the Bible for 7 years, you misread the Bible. It is possible to read the Bible with your flesh and not by the spirit. Reading other books is finding agreement with others. Don't take pride in misreading the Bible for 7 years.

There is definitely a Third Heaven because the Bible says so. Accept it, even if there is only one verse. If it can be explained, then it is true. Ergo, there is a Second Heaven and a First Heaven. When the Bible speaks of the Heavens it is referring to all three heavens.

Third heaven is where Christ is on His Father's throne with the angels. It is the highest. Lucifer fell from third heaven, but you don't see him walking on earth, so you know the place he fell to was Second Heaven. The universe with earth is the First Heaven.

Don't reject the Roman Church for its correct teachings. Reject it for its false teachings.

The First Heaven passing away is Earth being burnt up and being unable to view the starry universe from Old Earth. New Earth can view the starry universe of the First Heaven.

This is a very simple issue, but many misunderstand the 3 heavens.

[Jonah]

Don't think the Roman Church is always wrong. Probably because you did not consult with 2 or 3 in agreement, and only read the Bible for 7 years, you misread the Bible. It is possible to read the Bible with your flesh and not by the spirit. Reading other books is finding agreement with others. Don't take pride in misreading the Bible for 7 years.

There is definitely a Third Heaven because the Bible says so. Accept it, even if there is only one verse. If it can be explained, then it is true. Ergo, there is a Second Heaven and a First Heaven. When the Bible speaks of the Heavens it is referring to all three heavens.

Third heaven is where Christ is on His Father's throne with the angels. It is the highest. Lucifer fell from third heaven, but you don't see him walking on earth, so you know the place he fell to was Second Heaven. The universe with earth is the First Heaven.

Don't reject the Roman Church for its correct teachings. Reject it for its false teachings.

The First Heaven passing away is Earth being burnt up and being unable to view the starry universe from Old Earth. New Earth can view the starry universe of the First Heaven.

This is a very simple issue, but many misunderstand the 3 heavens.


You just quoted all of the beliefs of the catholics. Why am I not surprised, again.

Lucifer is "the son of the morning". "A man" The scripture is to and about a type of man.


Angel simply means "messenger" and nothing else. It is stipulated where ever it is used, as to who the messenger is from.

Here is a scripture where Christ calls John the Baptist an Angel.

Matthew 11
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my "Angel" "messenger" (a[ggelo� , Aggelos, ang'-el-os) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Heaven is Gods throne and earth is His footstool. But God is Spirit. So what does a throne where a spirit that rests his feet on the ground, look like?

John 4
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Acts 7
49 ' Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest?


The rain, dew, water, snow come from heaven. The storm and tempest also gather there. Elijah and the Lord ascended up into into that very same heaven. That is where heaven is. God and Christ are right here they always have been. They are hiding their face from everyone because of their vanity.

Isaiah 55
10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater,
Deuteronomy 32
20 And He said: 'I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, Children in whom is no faith.

But then I don't suppose that you are ready to give up your roman catholic doctrines and I have read them all and recognize the serpents writings.
Sometimes it is best to throw the filthy baby out with the wash like the Lord did with the children of Sodom and Gomorrah. But how will any of the children learn if you are all defiled by the lies of the serpent. Serpent begets serpent.


6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

[Churchwork]

I pointed out what was right and wrong about the Roman Church. Why does that offend you if you can't show otherwise? Is it not because you have a false teaching you can't defend? Your false teaching of their being no rapture and no accountability for believers for the 1000 years is so you can sin more without consequence, so you think. This false teaching you present is called antinomianism and is rejected by the Church-body of Christ.

Lucifer is not a man, but a fallen angel. I hope you weren't saying he is a man. He was the most beautiful angel. He was one of the 24 archangels. He was replaced probably by Michael (the only archangel mentioned in the Bible). Men were made after angels made. There is no record of a man called Lucifer being made before Adam and Eve.

An angel is a spirit being while men are soulical beings with a spirit. The Bible says we all have a guardian angel. We don't have a person standing next to us. How silly.

An angel can be, depending on the scenario, either a messenger or a spirit being. For example the angel unto the churches in Rev. 1.20 were human messengers, not spirit angels.

There is also two kinds of evil spirits. There are the fallen angels and the disembodied demonic spirits.

We are told nobody is in 3rd heaven yet, not even Elijah, David or Enoch. Elijah will return with Enoch to be the Two Witnesses who shall die as martyrs.

The heaven spoken of in Is. 55.10 is the air above, not the 2nd heaven or 3rd heaven. That's why Isaiah says in the next verse to make a comparison, "...so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth"; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it" (v.11). Acts 7.49 is 3rd heaven. You need to discern the different usages of heaven, for Elijah is not in 3rd heaven, nor is he caught up to the air (part of 1st heaven). Perhaps he is in 2nd heaven or somewhere else waiting to return. Nobody can enter 3rd heaven naked without there resurrected spiritual bodies. Enoch and Elijah do not have those bodies yet, because they have not yet died. Not that you have to die, but we know in their case they have yet to die. Some will be translated alive like those at the first rapture and those who are "alive" and who are "left" at the last trumpet rapture according to 1 Thess. 4.15,17.

God the Father is spirit, the 2nd Person of the Godhead is spirit and so is the 3rd Person. The Father is not on earth as a man. I hope you were not saying that I pray.

It is the serpent's writing to include all believers in the 1000 year reign with Christ in Revelation 20.4, but this verse is clear it would not include all believers. This is your sin before God which denies the accountability of believers which some receive the reward of reigning while some do not.

What I have show you is the proof not only are there 1st, 2nd and 3rd heaven, but there is also rapture, and there is also loss of rewards for non-overcomer believers. Notice in Rev. 2 & 3 some overcometh, but some do not. The ratio is about 1 in 7 because only the Philadelphia of seven churches was an overcomer church.

The 5 wise virgins filled up their vessels with oil of the Holy Spirit, while the 5 unwise virgins though saved because they are of the same class also, did not fill up their vessels so they could not enter the marriage feast of the Lamb which is the 1000 year reign on earth.

These are several key truths you reject but you give nothing to support your dissension, so may that be a testimony to God for these truths.

Praise the Lord!