Churchwork
12-25-2006, 05:30 PM
Silly Arguments Against Atonement
Steven Carr,
Here is Acts 10:43, showing that Christians have great difficulty reading and comprehending the Bible.
Acts 10:43 'All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Nothing whatever in that verse about any 'Messiah' let alone a Messiah dying.
"He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter...he was cut off out of the land of the living..he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death" (Is. 53.7,8,9;
Acts 10.43 was shown to you to show someone is the sacrifice for sin. It does not require legalistically the word "Messiah" be used. "He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (Is. 53.12).
Here is Acts 13:38-39 "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Again, nothing whatever in that verse about death or dying for sins.
This verse refers to the believing in Jesus for forgiveness of sins. That Jesus died in that same quote was given in this verse: "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly" (Rom. 5.6).
I think you are funny how you are disingenuously trying to find fault when you think I am trying to show a verse says a certain something, even though I never did. If I did, you could have quoted me saying that.
It is well known that Luke/Acts systematically removes all notion of Jesus dying for our sins.
You are funny with your self-declarations which are obviously wrong. Jesus said in Luke 24, "'When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true.' Then he opened their minds to understand these many Scriptures. "Yes it was written long ago that the Messiah must SUFFER AND DIE AND RISE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD on the third day. With my authority, take this message of repentance to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: 'There is forgiveness of sins for all who turn to me.' You are witnesses of these things.
And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my Father promised" (vv.44-49).
Maybe Luke removed any mention of the notion of Jesus dying for our sins in Acts. Let's see. "During the 40 days after his crucifixion, he appeared to the apostles...This is the same Jesus who you handed over to be rejected...You killed the author of life, but God raised him to life. And we are witnesses of this fact!
The name of Jesus healed this man...Faith in Jesus' name has caused this healing...God was fulfilling what all the prophets had declared about the Messiah beforehand-that he must suffer all these things. Now turn from your sins and turn to God, so you can be cleansed of your sins...he will send Jesus your Messiah to you again" (Acts 1,3; 3.13,15,16,18,19,20)
For Luke/Acts , killing Jesus was a sin, and people repent and are forgiven of sins when they realise the enormity of what they did in killing Jesus.
In Luke/Acts, Jesus was the first martyr, and not somebody who died as a vicarious atonement.
All Christians believe killing Jesus was a sin. Did the man who was healed try to kill Jesus? No. He was cleansed of his sins because of belief, just like Acts says, Jesus "must suffer all these things" as the Messiah to die for your sins to provide salvation to everyone who would receive it. Some turn from their sins to believe, others do not. That is their choice. There were lots of martyrs before Jesus died. Jesus death was an atonement as Is. 53 showed: "he hath borne our griefs...he was wounded for our transgressions...and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (vv.4,12). And the NT agrees: "Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13.38,39).
I am always awestruck how a person can just say one thing that is completely contradictory to these verses, but that is the power of the flesh to be able to shut the mind down.
Freewill simply cannot understand his own Bible, probably because he is so quagmired in modern Christian beliefs about what the Bible should say, rather than what it does say.
For Mark and John, Jesus dies as a vicarious atonement.
But not for Luke/Acts. Jesus died as a martyr, not as a sacrifice. It is a big contradiction in the Bible.
Yes, for Luke and Acts as was shown, Jesus died as the perfect sacrifice for sins. No contradiction in the Word.
Even when Acts speaks about Jesus blood, in Acts 20:28, it is about Jesus blood setting up the church, rather than Jesus blood cleansing sin in some way
Acts 20:28 'Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.'
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood...I know full well that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you...not sparing the flock. Even some will distort the truth in order to draw a following. Watch out!" (Acts 20.28,29,30). To enter into the church you must believe in Christ, so "by him all that believe are justified" (Acts 13.39).
Ergo, we see complete harmony with Mark and John and Luke. I trust this will convince you how you have misread God's loving Word.
Steven Carr,
Here is Acts 10:43, showing that Christians have great difficulty reading and comprehending the Bible.
Acts 10:43 'All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Nothing whatever in that verse about any 'Messiah' let alone a Messiah dying.
"He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter...he was cut off out of the land of the living..he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death" (Is. 53.7,8,9;
Acts 10.43 was shown to you to show someone is the sacrifice for sin. It does not require legalistically the word "Messiah" be used. "He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (Is. 53.12).
Here is Acts 13:38-39 "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Again, nothing whatever in that verse about death or dying for sins.
This verse refers to the believing in Jesus for forgiveness of sins. That Jesus died in that same quote was given in this verse: "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly" (Rom. 5.6).
I think you are funny how you are disingenuously trying to find fault when you think I am trying to show a verse says a certain something, even though I never did. If I did, you could have quoted me saying that.
It is well known that Luke/Acts systematically removes all notion of Jesus dying for our sins.
You are funny with your self-declarations which are obviously wrong. Jesus said in Luke 24, "'When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true.' Then he opened their minds to understand these many Scriptures. "Yes it was written long ago that the Messiah must SUFFER AND DIE AND RISE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD on the third day. With my authority, take this message of repentance to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: 'There is forgiveness of sins for all who turn to me.' You are witnesses of these things.
And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my Father promised" (vv.44-49).
Maybe Luke removed any mention of the notion of Jesus dying for our sins in Acts. Let's see. "During the 40 days after his crucifixion, he appeared to the apostles...This is the same Jesus who you handed over to be rejected...You killed the author of life, but God raised him to life. And we are witnesses of this fact!
The name of Jesus healed this man...Faith in Jesus' name has caused this healing...God was fulfilling what all the prophets had declared about the Messiah beforehand-that he must suffer all these things. Now turn from your sins and turn to God, so you can be cleansed of your sins...he will send Jesus your Messiah to you again" (Acts 1,3; 3.13,15,16,18,19,20)
For Luke/Acts , killing Jesus was a sin, and people repent and are forgiven of sins when they realise the enormity of what they did in killing Jesus.
In Luke/Acts, Jesus was the first martyr, and not somebody who died as a vicarious atonement.
All Christians believe killing Jesus was a sin. Did the man who was healed try to kill Jesus? No. He was cleansed of his sins because of belief, just like Acts says, Jesus "must suffer all these things" as the Messiah to die for your sins to provide salvation to everyone who would receive it. Some turn from their sins to believe, others do not. That is their choice. There were lots of martyrs before Jesus died. Jesus death was an atonement as Is. 53 showed: "he hath borne our griefs...he was wounded for our transgressions...and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (vv.4,12). And the NT agrees: "Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13.38,39).
I am always awestruck how a person can just say one thing that is completely contradictory to these verses, but that is the power of the flesh to be able to shut the mind down.
Freewill simply cannot understand his own Bible, probably because he is so quagmired in modern Christian beliefs about what the Bible should say, rather than what it does say.
For Mark and John, Jesus dies as a vicarious atonement.
But not for Luke/Acts. Jesus died as a martyr, not as a sacrifice. It is a big contradiction in the Bible.
Yes, for Luke and Acts as was shown, Jesus died as the perfect sacrifice for sins. No contradiction in the Word.
Even when Acts speaks about Jesus blood, in Acts 20:28, it is about Jesus blood setting up the church, rather than Jesus blood cleansing sin in some way
Acts 20:28 'Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.'
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood...I know full well that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you...not sparing the flock. Even some will distort the truth in order to draw a following. Watch out!" (Acts 20.28,29,30). To enter into the church you must believe in Christ, so "by him all that believe are justified" (Acts 13.39).
Ergo, we see complete harmony with Mark and John and Luke. I trust this will convince you how you have misread God's loving Word.