Lying, Deceptive, Selfish (LDS) Mormon Doug Yancey

[Churchwork]

Doug,

If you had the Holy Spirit in your spirit:

1) You would no longer be a Mormon
2) You would no longer think God is gods
3) You would no longer thing God is different substances
4) You would no longer accept Joseph Smith’s grand cult or think Smith was saved in his Satanic encounter.
5) You would no longer believe that the 3 Persons of the Godhead are separate.

This is why according to the Scriptures you are unregenerated. No more, no less. You believe in something, but it is not of the 66 books of the Bible. You believe something else and what you believe is incongruent with the God’s life, that is eternal life and His Holy Spirit.

I can only give you the truth of your heart condition and your dead spirit (an intuitive conscience insensitive to things of God). You still have to make the choice for Christ Doug.

[Churchwork]

I tried again to help Doug Yancey give his life to Christ, but still he refuses to do so as he always ends up shutting his mind down to the facts and the need for evidence. This is actually a glory to God, because God will not coerce Himself on Doug (showing how righteous and holy God is in all His dealings). He treats Doug with respect made in His image to give him the free-choice. He will not treat him as instrumental value, but is intrinsically valuable to God, even if God has to put Doug into hell for all eternity for refusing the Trinity of One Substance. Here are the claims he makes which he refuses to try show evidence for, which after all this time, we can be fairly certain, he can't because his beliefs are false. God has released me from this burden of the Holy Spirit, because I have done all I can to help lead him to Christ.

Doug's sins:
1. Since your self-declaration John 17 says that Jesus is of another substance than the Father is never shown, and no Christian that I know of reads it that way and certainly no Christian scholar, then you are living a lie in the vagaries of your self-declaration, and following after an evil man Joseph Smith who is just one guy all by himself who claimed something like Mohammed in a cave started his own religion. You have nothing you can find in the Bible to help your claim that God is gods or different beings of different substances; nor do you address how these beings came into being. Obviously your Satanic puff the magic dragon approach will not do.

Christians read John 17 as the humility of Christ showing perfect obedience. The Father, Son and Spirit of the Trinity agreed the Son would enter into creation to show that perfect obedience unto the Father. This is the complex of God's Triune Being of one Substance.

2. Your claim of subordinationism (see chart (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/mormonism.htm)) is not true at all. For in the eternity of the past, the Father was co-equal with the Son and the Spirit, and co-inherent. Just because the Father and the Son agreed that the Son would be the one who entered into creation to be the atoning sacrifice and erect obedience unto mankind, does not mean subordinationism. For remember what Rev. 22.1,3,4 says that God and the Lamb will the center of the new city, and you shall see His one face. Yes! His one face of the Father and the Son. Remember in all our discussions (over a thousand email exchanges) this is where you faltered the most and had the most doubt in your ideas when I told you about this in Rev. 22.1,3,4. This is where you are potentially open to having a change of mind. Let this be your doorway of truth in the Scriptures that helps lead you to Christ. Don't be embarrassed at your late stage in life, that you would be just now saved! God glories in such miracles! And Christians will rejoice.

3. Your claim that the Father is the Word and so is Jesus goes, but this goes against what John 1.1 says and is modalistically doubletongued, considering you are a tritheist polytheist mormon. It says In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Further along we discover Jesus is the Word, the person on earth Whom the 66 books of the Bible (the Word) embody just as Jesus in the form of God is the Godhead bodily when He is in His creation. Never ever will you find the Bible saying the Father is the Word. Silly. This shows how way off you are!

The negative consequences of this are not too hard to see. Once you let the idea in your head that God is different beings (when it was never revealed in the Word), then you open up pandora's box. You excite your flesh and your imagination goes wild about what these different beings in God are doing. You would be trying to be like God by mistakenly assuming He is different beings. Satan tried to get into God's head too, but obviously he failed. Eve wanted to be like God too, and Adam fell with the same attitude. You can never be saved by trying to save yourself your own way. Where is the humility in NOT accepting some things God won't reveal to you such as what is underneath the Father, Son and Spirit. It's like a person who programmed a computer game. The character in the game cannot know more than what the designer reveals.

Besides, all of this silliness is based on one guy who said he saw something, but then he lost it, so he had to make it up. He fabricated it on gold plates, and got people to look at those gold plates so he could have eyewitnesses. Plus, they didn't even see the contents. Then some of those eyewitnesses left mormonism.

Some people don't want to be saved. So many failed prophecies...
http://members.aol.com/DiaLogos3/prophecies.htm

[Churchwork]

I have wrestled with the matter of whether or not to put these pages on-line. LDS are pretty defensive about this approach, which seems like a direct attack. But the Bible does warn us to “beware” of false prophets. This info is useful in obeying that command. Further, everyone knows the standard “testimony” of Mormons relates to their confidence in the church, the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith. Yet, none of those who tell me these things have ever put Smith to God’s Biblical test for a prophet. We are told in Deut. 18:20-22 how to test a prophet. It says that if “the thing” prophesied does not come to pass, then we are not to fear (or revere as a prophet) such a person. Note that it doesn’t say “the things”...but limits the test to any ONE prophecy. With that in mind, let us look at SEVERAL of the prophecies of Joseph Smith.
The fact is that a list of over 55 (false) prophecies of Joseph Smith has been compiled by former LDS Elder, Dick Baer, who printed it up to demonstrate to his friends and family why he was leaving the church. Here are some of them:

July 1831, Doctrine & Covenants 51:1-3 names Independence, Missouri as the center place of Zion. And D & C 62:1, 6 and 9 say the saints would be preserved and rejoice together in the land of Missouri. But they were not preserved in the land of Missouri (they were driven out) and did not rejoice. While this was a promise to the FAITHFUL, the fact that no one was able to be preserved and rejoice in Missouri(their being driven out was a catastrophe) would indicate that all the Mormons had become unfaithful. So even if we make this conditional it would suggest a TOTAL apostasy in this new church. That would throw a question on the whole authority/priesthood issue, would it not?
D & C 84:2-5, 31 and 114-115 say a new Jerusalem temple was to be built IN JOSEPH SMITH’S GENERATION in Zion (Missouri) on the temple lot. It was not built.
D & C 87 (Civil War Prophecy) It is interesting to me that this is a prophecy LDS claim was fulfilled. South Carolina had already rebelled when Smith wrote of “the rebellion of South Carolina”, but that rebellion did NOT spark the civil war (1833) - the war began in 1860. Though Great Britain was called on, it did NOT get involved in the war, and contrary to the prophecy, war was not poured out on all the nation. Nor did the slaves rise up against their masters as a major part of the war... it was primarily a war of white men against white men, North against South.
Doc. & Cov. 103:13-25 speaks to the men of Zion's camp, who were organized to march to Missouri and RESCUE the Mormons there (see vs. 24). Verse 25 promises they (those men of Zion's camp) would avenge God's
enemies. But in the History of the Church, Vol. 3, pages XXXIX and following is described the utter FAILURE of Zion's camp to avenge anyone of anything! God's OWN presence (vs. 19) supposedly went with them...but the
whole thing failed!
D & C 111:1-11 (August 6, 1836). Regarding Salem, Massachusetts: “I have much treasure in this city for you... I will give this city into your hands... and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.” There is no record that either the city or any of its wealth ever came to Smith. While this promise was supposed to happen "in due time" (so it has been suggested that it may happen later), Smith and his men were IN SALEM when the revelation came, and left there
very disappointed at not having gotten any treasure, as they did not interpret the use of the word "you" in the revelation to mean some OTHER people in some OTHER century.
D & C 112 is a “revelation given through Joseph Smith to Thomas B. Marsh at Kirtland, Ohio, July 23, 1837.” It says God knows Thomas’ heart and he has a great work for him to do; he was chosen to hold the keys of the kingdom. Marsh was president of the 12 at that time, but apostatized 15 months later (Doct. Hist. of the Church III, pp. 155-167).
D & C 114, dated April 17, 1838, says, “Verily, thus saith the Lord: it is wisdom in my servant, David W. Patten, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring...” But Patten died October 15, 1838 (D.H.C. III, pp. 170-171).
D & C 115:1-12. The saints were commanded to build a house to the Lord in Far West, Missouri, “until it is finished, from the cornerstone unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished.” Though the foundation was laid, the temple was never built (there was a move on to Nauvoo).
D & C 124:56-60 says the “Nauvoo House” was to be built and belong to the Smith family forever, and was to be a place of refreshment for visitors. But the house never was completed; that area is now owned by the Reorganized LDS church. In verse 63 of this section it gives instructions on issuing stock for the house that was never built. Why would a God who knew the future command such a deception to be told to his own people?
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 302: “I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri...that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left.” The wrongs were never redressed.
D & C 124:16-17 speaks of God’s acceptance of the work of John C. Bennett. But D H C, V, page 42, reveals that 3 months before this revelation and beyond, Bennett was involved in adultery.
History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182. Joseph Smith said that the coming of the Lord was “nigh — even 56 years should wind up the scene.” (Given in 1835)
Church History, Vol. 2, pp. 380-381. Joseph Smith said he saw in a vision of the CELESTIAL kingdom “the 12 apostles of the Lamb who are now upon the earth.” But the History of the Church later records the apostasy and final excommunication of 5 of the 12 apostles referred to in this vision: Lyman Johnson Vol. 3:20
Luke Johnson - Vol. 2:528
William McLellin - Vol. 3:31
William Smith - Vol. 7:483
Thomas Marsh - Vol. 4:284
I wish to acknowledge that Joseph Smith did give one true prophecy as follows: “For although a man may have many revelations and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he BOASTS in his own strength and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must FALL and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.” (D & C 3:4, emphasis added)
Joseph Smith did boast in his own strength - that he had done more than even Jesus Christ (D H C 6:408-409). This boast was made in May of 1844. In June of 1844 Joseph Smith did fall (dead), not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he killed two and wounded one (Comprehensive History of the Church, pp. 284-285). He died not as a sheep going to slaughter, but as a wolf in sheep’s clothing.


“Beware of false prophets”

by Sharon Doty

[Churchwork]

LDS in Trouble Because of DNA Evidence



There is a big problem for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to deal with...somehow. To summarize it, the Book of Mormon teaches as historical fact that the Indian tribes in the Americas are descendents of Israelites who came across the Atlantic mainly about 600 BC. BUT... studies of 150 plus Indian tribes' DNA has revealed a total lack of any Semite (Israelite) genetic markers in the Indians in the Americas. The logical conclusion is that the Book of Mormon story is fiction, not fact. The Book of Mormon is allegedly the whole foundation of Mormonism, so it is a bombshell issue. For further details about the DNA research, CLICK HERE (http://www.mormonsinshock.com/DNABOM.htm). I'm sure other info can be found through a search of the internet as well. This information has been out now for over two years, and is appearing in tracts, videos and newspaper articles. An article on this subject that appeared in USA Today can be read at http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-07-26-dna-lds_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-07-26-dna-lds_x.htm). For more information connect to: http://www.exmormons.org/ (http://www.exmormons.org/). Mormons are having mixed reactions; shock, disbelief, denial, and disillusionment. My heart goes out to this group of people.
So what is my interest? I am a Christian and I've been a student of LDS teachings for over 35 years and have felt God called me 17 years ago to WARN Mormons that they have been deceived about SOME of the things they have believed. This would be one of them.
My message at this point is this: Can we talk? I would plead with the LDS reader, as you reevaluate what is true and what is not, to consider the following thoughts:
1. The Bible has not been disproved--you can safely believe in it.
2. Jesus Christ has not been discredited in any way. PLEASE do not throw out the baby with the bath water.
3. Do not make the false assumption that "If the LDS Church is not true, then no church is true." That assumption is based on a false premise--the "TOTAL APOSTASY" premise. Please read the truth about this! (Click here: Apostasy and Restoration (http://www.mormonsinshock.com/apostasy.htm))
4. The heart of my warning to Mormons over the years has focused on the LDS plan of salvation. PLEASE, PLEASE study this out because it involves the destiny of your soul! (click here: Mormons in Shock (http://www.mormonsinshock.com/mormons_in_shock.htm)). I'd be so pleased to discuss any of these four points with you as well as other topics discussed in my site (Article Index: click here (http://www.mormonsinshock.com/article_index.htm)).
My testimony to you is that God and Christ are real and worthy of your trust. I have trusted Christ as my Savior and He has made Himself real to me and to literally millions of others who have trusted in Him, through changed lives, answered prayers, and other miracles. I stake my life on these statements. Salvation CAN be found outside the walls of the LDS Church. I would love to discuss Biblical salvation with you. It is even BETTER than what you have been told in the LDS Church. Can we talk?

http://www.mormonsinshock.com/

[Churchwork]

It is better for you Doug to speak with your own words, because none of the hundreds of articles you cut and past arbitrarily that you send me actually address my points. Plus, it is very impersonal like the impersonability of God being a social collective of created beings.

There is some basic things that ought to be agreed on. Reason with me.

1) In the eternity of the past there was not multiple gods, since you would have to ask who or where did this god or that god come from, which is a never ending question, just like atheists believe there is an eternity of the past of causes and effects. Therefore, there must be one source of one substance in the eternity of the past. We know atheists believe ultimately in Lucifer, and by comparison, then so would mormons. God the Father was never a man, and He was not created from another being. You should reject this reincarnated effect. He is uncreated.

2) The Son of God also has to be uncreated, otherwise you are receiving an atonement from a created being which is less than the God I believe in, so my God trumps your God. You lose and I win in Christ.

3) It stands to reason that if God the Father is uncreated and God the Son is uncreated, so too is God the Spirit uncreated since God the Spirit is the life of the Father and the Son. And if all 3 Persons of the Godhead (the Trinity) are thus co-equal and co-inherent, then the Triune Being must be all of one substance.

Ultimately what you are doing is shutting your mind down to proper reasoning, because you want to go to hell and get as many people to go there with you. By your desire to want to go to hell, you have to shut your mind down to this proper reasoning. :wacko:

[evan]

Let's examine some of these, shall we?



There is some basic things that ought to be agreed on. Reason with me.

1) In the eternity of the past there was not multiple gods, since you would have to ask who or where did this god or that god come from, which is a never ending question, just like atheists believe there is an eternity of the past of causes and effects. Therefore, there must be one source of one substance in the eternity of the past. We know atheists believe ultimately in Lucifer, and by comparison, then so would mormons. God the Father was never a man, and He was not created from another being. You should reject this reincarnated effect. He is uncreated.

As far as reasoning goes, you face the same problem: where did God come from? He is 'uncreated'? He must have come from somewhere. You really can't use your argument against the LDS when current Christian theology faces a comparable *problem*.


2) The Son of God also has to be uncreated, otherwise you are receiving an atonement from a created being which is less than the God I believe in, so my God trumps your God. You lose and I win in Christ.

I am not a particularly good arguer/debater, but this is the worst argument I have seen. "I think my God is better than yours so you lose"

????????


3) It stands to reason that if God the Father is uncreated and God the Son is uncreated, so too is God the Spirit uncreated since God the Spirit is the life of the Father and the Son. And if all 3 Persons of the Godhead (the Trinity) are thus co-equal and co-inherent, then the Triune Being must be all of one substance.

It most certainly does not stand to reason that God is 'uncreated'. Neither does it stand to reason that the Son is uncreated. And even if those things are true, it certainly does not make sense that they are the same 'substance'. They can be co-equal without sharing any 'substance'.

[Churchwork]

Christians do not face the mormon and atheist problem of wanting an eternity of the past of cause and effects of gods creating gods, because we observe what God says. God says look at the mountains and the stars to know God did it, and that since nothing in nature happens all by itself, therefore, the uncreated must have created. The created could not have been the ultimate creator.

It is the faith that can't accept the uncreated and uncaused created that is an evidence your beliefs reveal your unsalvation. The Holy Spirit reveals this fact as the proof that since obviously an uncreated God would have more power than a created god, this is why you lose and have hell waiting for you. Your beliefs are a reflection of your unsalvation, so God says we shall know them by their fruit. You don't want to be saved by the uncreated Savior, but want a lesser salvation so you can remain in sin through a created being.

Further, it remains true that since there can only be one uncreated in the eternity of the past and not multiple uncreated beings, since you would have to ask where these other beings come from, then you know that the uncreated nature of the Triune Godhead requires all 3 Persons of the Trinity to be uncreated and of one substance as Christianity has always taught. You are not a Christian, but someone who gets off on your cultic idea that puffs you up. You would need to learn the difference between your soul and spirit (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm) to allow God to break this bondage you are under.

The Holy Spirit has shown me in no uncertain terms through this explanation and revelation is why you are going to hell. This is a shield of protection against you as you aim to deceive in your ego. You are a bad person who wants to remain in sin and has found a way to rationalize it to yourself. God values so much the preservation of His Word against such things as polytheism.

What I have said here was already said. Since it needs be repeated, it shows that you don't care to address it. In other words, you are stuck on your assumed stance of the atheist idea of beings creating beings in the eternity of the past as a moron-mormon. I also believe you know you are willingly deceiving, but don't care. You do have a spirit of God-consciousness so you are aware of your uncreated creator God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit, but you don't care as you choose to alter His very Being as Satan tries to exalt himself too. Your conscience is dead to God that you presume darkness in Christianity the past 1800 years after the cross even though Jesus said "It is finished". That is to say, all the power of the cross by the Holy Spirit is available to all so as to maintain spiritual Christianity, even though there may be many faults in greater Christendom. What you try to teach is a diabolical alteration which is cunning and couth, ugly and unholy.

Satan lives by self-declarations, and that is how you live. Your self-declaration is that God is different beings who are created beings, so you have no personal relationship with the uncreated creator. How sad for you.

[Churchwork]

We don't 'in_sert into God different beings'. We believe there are three separate and distinct divine Persons within the one Godhead. They are composed of the same type of substance, but are not the same Being.
This is why you are not a Christian, because the Church in Scripture or in subsequent Creeds, never taught God was several beings. Don't you know many evil things develop from claiming multiple uncreated beings? Scripture only ever allows for one uncreated Being, and logically, only one uncreated Being exists, otherwise, you have to ask where these others come from. By uncreated means one Being always existing. Think about it. If many uncreated beings always existed, how could you be any more polytheistic? That's worse than Hinduism. Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion man has ever created to reject God. You do in_sert into God different beings. You said they "are not the same Being," then you in_sert into God different beings, which contradicts what you said, you "don't 'in_sert into God different beings'." The Bible says, be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Your don't have a regenerated conscience in Christ to realize how wrong this is and mistaken assumption of multiple uncreated beings. Who is to say the religion down the block with its different number of uncreated beings is the right one? There is no standard. The only standard is one uncreated Being, God Almighty, the One True God. For eternity you are going to live this lie unless you give your life to Christ.


I'm already in the 'body of Christ'. It's called the Church of Jesus Christ.
You mean the Mormon church. There is nothing in God's word Jesus would go to North America. You're delusional. The Church wherever two or three are gathered in His name have never called themselves Mormons. So you are not a member of the body of Christ. Just know that you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, that you yet can come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as your Savior.


I don't believe in having one's seat 'locked up' in heaven. Do you believe you can be saved and live any way you want? See: 1Peter 4:17-18.
That is a strange faith as Dave Hunt says, that you could be saved, lose salvation tomorrow, gain it back the next day, lose it next week and next month get saved again. Would God be so fickle? Don't you have faith to believe in God who can once-save-always-saved by His infinite foreknowledge? What you may not understand that once-saved a person can lose rewards in reigning with Christ during the 1000 years, which is a very long time, but he doesn't forfeit his place as a pillar in the New City and New Earth. In the eternity of the future in the New City rewards are done away.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Pet. 4.17) This verse doesn't say you can lose eternal life if you are born-again. It would though apply to loss of rewards for the millennial kingdom. You're not persuaded. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39). 1 Pet. 4.18 confirms this: "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" To be "scarcely saved" is still saved, just like the 5 unwise virgins who did not fill their vessels with the oil of the Holy Spirit still had oil in their lamps, but they were not allowed to enter the marriage feast of the millennial kingdom.


"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29).

Are you sure He is talking about one's life on earth rather than at the Day of Judgement? Do you believe you are saved in your sins? See: Rev 20:12-15
They shall never perish does not refer to earthly things, but eternity. Judgement seat for believers before the 1000 years commences is not to determine whether you are saved or not, but to enact discipline and rewards for the saved. A Christian is saved in Christ, not our sins. Our sins can cause us to lose rewards, but not life. Salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast. You're an arrogant man who thinks he can save himself, lose his salvation and work to get it back. Don't you know you are a sinner? A sinner can't save himself, nor can he lose salvation once-received.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even] the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20.12-15).

Great White Throne takes place after the 1000 years. One perishes because of his evil works (not because of lack of good works). Mormonism is evil for it alters God into different beings. And those who are saved are saved because their names are written in the book of life ('locked up' and foreknown), again, not because of their good works. You can't save yourself. All religions of the world are based on works just like Mormonism. Only Christianity is different: "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9).


I and all Mormons don't rely on our 'works' to save us. We rely on the grace of God to fulfill the covenant we make with Him. That means we commit to be His disciple and He promises to 'bring us home' to His Father's house. So, nothing we can do--without His grace--will 'save' us. But, everything we do can affect our salvation if we break our covenant. See: Matt 7:21, 19:17.
You're contradicting yourself. You said, "Mormons don't rely on our 'works' to save us," but you do for you said, "everything we do can affect our salvation" to even lose eternal life. If God chose you for initial salvation, He does it for life; if you can lose salvation, it's because you never had it to begin with, since to lose salvation is based on works. We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16). Works can neither get you saved, nor can they cause you to lose salvation. This is true salvation.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7.21-22).

Matthew 7.21 lays down the general conditions for entering the kingdom of heaven. 7.22 illustrates the special exclusion from the kingdom. And 7.23 tells of the special consequence thereof for such people.

The word "knew" in verse 23 is the past tense for the same Greek word translated "know" in Romans 7.15. In the original it means to recognize or to understand. "I never knew you" may therefore be translated as "I never recognized you"—which means "I never recognized what you did as right."

Now the people in question here are definitely Christians, for the following reasons:

(1) The context in which these words of Jesus are found is the so-called Sermon on the Mount, which, as we have continually seen, is primarily spoken to believers.
(2) The teaching of the mount from beginning to end never instructs us as to how we can be saved since it is obviously addressed to those who are already saved.
(3) This small section from verse 21 to verse 23 does not deal with the question of faith; rather, it treats of the matter of conduct. We know we are saved through faith and not by work. Hence what is said here has nothing do with eternal perdition of the unsaved.
(4) "In that day" (v.22)—What day is "that day"? These words refer to the day of judgment at the judgment-seat of Christ before which the saved alone will appear. This is not the judgment before the Great White Throne.
(5) The people in question here have called on the name of the Lord; therefore they are the Lord’s.
(6) Notice the works they perform: they prophesy by the name of the Lord, and by the same Name they cast out demons and do many mighty works.

"That day" is a specific term in the Bible. As today is the day of man (see 1 Cor. 4.3: "or of man’s judgment" which in the original is "of man’s day") when man judges, so "that day" is the day of the judgment-seat of Christ when all the saved—and no one but the saved—shall be judged (see 2 Tim. 1.12,18; 4.8). Obviously, Paul is not talking about losing eternal life, but receiving or losing rewards.

v.22 "Many" shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. "Lord, Lord . . ."—They call on His name once again.

"Prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works"—All these are considered to be great gifts in the church: to prophesy is to do the work of a prophet; to cast out demons is to bring in the kingdom of heaven; and to do mighty works is to exercise the power of the age to come. Those who perform such acts specifically cite these things because they think by these things they are most qualified to enter the kingdom. Yet they are missing something unbeknownst to them, which God will reveal at the Bema Judgement Seat of Christ.

v.23 The word "confess" in Matthew 10.32-33 points to the saved ones. If we do not confess the Lord before men now we will be denied the glory of the kingdom of heaven. Similarly, the passage here rendered as "then will I profess unto them, I never knew you" is better to be translated as "I never recognized or approved of you"; and the reason for His disapproval is given in the words "ye that work iniquity"—wherein "iniquity" in Greek actually means "lawlessness" and means not working according to the rules of the kingdom of heaven.

"Depart from me" simply denotes that they have no part in the glory, a glory which is very different from what is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1.9.

Hence the general conditions for entering the kingdom of heaven (millennial reign with Christ) are a being saved plus doing the will of God.

The Holy Spirit who dwells in man is the Person of the Holy Spirit, and therefore He is there to rule over man. But the Holy Spirit that falls upon man is without personality, and hence it obeys man: "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (1 Cor. 14.32). The Holy Spirit dwells only in the saved ones, but His power may fall upon the unsaved such as Balaam.

It is possible to be lawless even in prophesying, in casting out demons, and in doing mighty works. There is the danger of not doing the will of God in all these things. We need to ask the Lord to deliver us from the iniquity of the sanctuary (see Num. 18.1). Let us realize that in the last days these same things shall be greatly increased.

"And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. 19.17).

v.17 The Lord answers the young man according to the latter’s background and status. Neither does He tacitly acknowledge here that doing some good thing will obtain eternal life (for to one who believes that doing a good thing is the way to eternal life, the most natural answer would be to say, Why not do good? But this is not the reply given by the Lord.).

"One there is who is good"—The Lord helps the young man to know himself. Only one is good (God), and there is none else.

"Keep the commandments"—for "he that doeth them shall live in them" (Gal. 3.12). Unfortunately there is no one who keeps the commandments and thus may be justified before God. If one stumbles on the smallest point of the law, he is guilty of all the laws (James 2.10). Law was originally a ministration of the Lord God, yet it has become the ministration of death; so says Paul (2 Cor. 3.7-9). Just as the dumb cannot ask how to sing hymns to please God, nor can the cripple ask how to dance so as to be welcomed, even so, no man is able to ask how to do good so as to gain eternal life. Nevertheless, sinners today keep on asking this question. Remind you of anyone?


Our 'assurance' of salvation is dependent on our staying in the covenant of grace and our obedience (Heb. 5:9). That does not mean we 'earn' our salvation. It just means we must continue to have faith in Christ. Faith is a principle of action. It implies more than just a simple, passive belief. We cannot be save without repentance. See: Matt 25:31-46
The Lord Jesus (John 5.24), Paul (Romans 8.38-39), and John (1 John 5.11-13) have no qualms about offering absolute, objective assurance of salvation. Furthermore, works are never included as a requirement of assurance. So why do you?

Once saved, forever saved. "Having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation" (Heb. 5.9). The salvation which the Lord has accomplished for us is eternal, therefore our salvation is also eternal. Your faith is the kind of faith with the option not to have tomorrow, whereas the Christian faith is a choice for forever. Yours is selfish, with an out-clause so you did not genuinely enter in. You still held some reservation for self. Initial salvation requires your repentance and true authentic belief in Christ, but after initial salvation, repentance or no repentance, work or now work, can't cause you to lose salvation. Faith is not a principle of action, but a principle of choice. Works is a principle of action. A choice to believe in the One True God is not passive, but vital for salvation, for faith and works contrasted as opposites: "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5); so, Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37). Satan will cast you out, but not God. Works afterward are not passive, but active towards receiving the reward of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. Repentance is a change of mind, not a work either. Therefore, if you repent and come to the cross as a helpless sinner the Lord Jesus will surely save you and give you eternal life which can never be lost. That is the God you can have too. Matt. 25.31-46 pertains to the dividing of the nations (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_25#sheepandgoats), not about initial salvation and eternal life.

As regards the security of our salvation—that is to say, we will never perish once we are saved—we can find at least twelve different areas of evidence in the Scriptures.

(1) According to God’s will—God foreordained us to be His children and to have sonship given to us, yet not according to our conditions but according to the good pleasure of His will (Eph. 1.5). He saves us and calls us with a holy calling, yet not according to our works but according to His own purpose (2 Tim. 1.9). For our conditions may change, but God’s will never changes (Heb. 6.17). In eternity He has formed a will which wills to save us that none of us should be lost (John 6.39). How then can we be saved and later be unsaved? Our salvation is forever secured in the unchangeable will of God.

(2) According to God’s election—God’s choosing us is neither accidental nor temporary. He has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1.4). His election is not according to our works but according to His will (Rom. 9.11). For we have not chosen the Lord; the Lord has chosen us (John 15.16). Just as the Lord never changes, so His election knows no repentance (Rom. 11.29). Hence our salvation is eternally secured and will never be moved.

(3) According to God’s love—Our salvation is based on God’s love for us and not our love for God (1 John 4.10). Our love changes easily, but God’s love is deeper than a mother’s (Is. 49.15). It is eternal (Jer. 31.1), to the end (John 13.1), and changeless. This everlasting love of God has made His salvation eternally secured to us.

(4) According to God’s grace—We are saved, not by ourselves nor by our own works but by the grace of God (Eph. 2.8,9). We ourselves with our works often change, but the grace of God is firm and sure. For this reason our salvation is eternally secured. Furthermore, this saving grace is given to us in Christ Jesus even before the foundation of the world (2 Tim. 1.9), and we have our redemption according to the riches of God’s grace (Eph. 1.7). His grace is always sufficient and more than sufficient. His grace is able to bear all our burdens, supply all our needs, and save us to the uttermost.

(5) According to God’s righteousness—God saves us not only by His love and grace but also according to His righteousness. He cannot help but save us, because the Lord Jesus on our behalf has already suffered on the cross the righteous judgment of God and has satisfied God’s righteous demands. Therefore, if God will not save us He will fall into unrighteousness. In saving us He reveals that He is righteous (Rom. 1.16,17), for righteousness is the foundation of His throne (Ps. 89.14). His righteousness is immovable. Since our justification is founded on the righteousness of God, it is eternal and immovable.

(6) According to God’s covenant—God has made a covenant with us to save us (Matt. 26.28; Heb. 8.8-12), and a covenant can suffer no alteration (Ps. 89.34). And hence our salvation cannot be changed.

(7) According to God’s power—"My Father who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand" (John 10.29). God is supreme and His power is the greatest; none can snatch us out of His mighty hand. So that according to His power our salvation is also secured.

(8) According to God’s life—God’s life is eternal. God has given this eternal life to us that we may become His children and have an everlasting life relationship with Him (John 3.16; 1 John 3.1). Life relationship can never be dissolved. His eternal life in us will not allow us to perish (John 10.28).

(9) According to God himself—There is no variation nor shadow of turning with God (James 1.17; Mal. 3.6). How can our salvation ever waver then, since it comes from such a God?

(10) According to the redemption of Christ—The Lord has become to us the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5.9). We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb. 10.14). Since what the Lord has done is eternal, our salvation must also be eternal. Because of this, "who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us" (Rom. 8.34). None can abrogate the redemption which the Lord through His death and resurrection has accomplished for us. None can condemn us for our sins. Hence our salvation is eternally secured.

(11) According to the power of Christ—"No one shall snatch them out of my hand" (John 10.28). The Lord and God are one. He is equal with God, therefore His hand is as strong as God’s hand. No one can snatch us out of His hand. His almighty hand makes our salvation eternally secured.

(12) According to the promise of Christ—"Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37). The Lord has promised that He will never cast out any of us who come to Him. Such a promise of His likewise guarantees our eternal salvation.


What is your definition of faith? Is your faith alive or dead without works? See: Luke 6:46-49, John 5:28-29.
Faith is belief and good works flow from true faith, whereas dead works flow from what you said you received, a "passive" faith.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Every one that cometh unto me, and heareth my words, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who digged and went deep, and laid a foundation upon the rock: and when a flood arose, the stream brake against that house, and could not shake it: because it had been well builded. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that built a house upon the earth without a foundation; against which the stream brake, and straightway it fell in; and the ruin of that house was great" (Luke 6.46-49).

Compare to Matt. 7.24-27. The Lord adopts the use of parables here to reinforce what has been spoken before. The problem cited in this verse is not a matter of hearing but doing. We have already heard; whether or not we do depends on each individual. "These words"—Broadly speaking, they have reference to the entire teaching on the mount. In a more restricted sense, they refer to the emphasis previously laid down above of doing the will of God. "Rock" signifies doing the will of God. Here it does not point to the Lord himself. Foolish does not mean "wicked"; it instead agrees with the thought of the foolish virgins spoken of in Matthew 25.2. Neither does it refer to the unsaved, since the entire subject here is building. The rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house—not a beating upon the person but only a beating upon his work is in view here. Hence he must be a saved person.

Who built his house upon the rock—the man in question thus built, not because he was good but because he was wise. This is in parallel with the wise virgins cited in Matthew 25.2. Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them—that is, a doing according to the Lord’s words. The foolish person is not one who does nothing, since he too goes and builds; but he does things according to his own will instead of according to God’s words. One pathetic trait among believers is their inclination to imitate the world.

What is the difference between the wise and the foolish? They both spend the same time and they are all engaged in building. Yet what a pity that the foolish builds upon the sand. The wise, though, has his eyes on the judgment-seat of Christ. Rain and floods and winds speak of great tribulation. The rain comes from above, and so it beats upon the head. The winds blow in all directions, and the floods strike against the foundation. Rain" refers to the works of the evil spirits, winds allude to the leadings of the evil spirits (see Eph. 4.14), and floods signify the power of the evil spirits.

It would be quite strange to read this passage as threatening a person could lose eternal life.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment" (John. 5.28-29).

I am quite certain you misunderstood the passage. It is not saying those who have done good get saved even though they may not believe in Christ or because they did good they can remain saved. Naturally, the unsaved will do evil and the saved will be constrained by the Holy Spirit from doing evil. It's shallow to make this verse about losing salvation. How dull. Try to understand what this verse is actually talking about.

This passage is about those who think they can escape judgment. Some may try to conceive a way to escape judgment. It is a rather foolish thought, but some may try. Why not hide in hades, after death, to avoid judgment? "They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment" (John 5.29). If, by hiding in hades, one is not resurrected, will he not escape judgment? But this is altogether useless. Listen to the word of God: "Though they dig into Sheol, thence shall my hand take them" (Amos 9.2a; cf. Ps. 139.8). Do you think you can hide in hades and seal up its entrance, thus escaping judgment? The hand of God will take you out of it. No matter how deep you dig into Sheol, His hand will remove you.

There is another group of people, possibly modem scientists or aviators, who fancy they can fly into space and escape the judgment. But this is also futile. Listen: "Though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down" (Amos 9.2b). You may climb up, but God will bring you down. It is hard for you to climb up, but it is easy for Him to bring you down.

Perhaps some will consider fleeing to the mountains and the forests where they cannot be found. Yet the word of God says: "Though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence" (Amos 9.3a). You speculate that by hiding in the depth of the mountains or among the many trees you may escape judgment, but God will search and take you out.

Others might say that if neither hades nor heaven nor the mountains can hide them, why not try the bottom of the sea? Here, too, the word of God warns: "Though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and it shall bite them" (Amos 9.3b). As you hide in the bottom of the sea, you will be bitten by a serpent and find no escape.

The above are various pictorial representations of your futile efforts. In hades, in heaven, in the mountains, or at the bottom of the sea you may escape the hand of men, but you cannot escape the hand of God. According to the Bible, there is absolutely no way of escape. You can't even escape salvation if it were possible if you were truly saved.


So, your 'grace' is cheap? See: John 8:31, Acts 10:34-35.
It's God's grace, not my grace. Why do you make salvation your grace? My assurance is in His promise and keeping power, not in my efforts or performance. Whereas rewards is based on my efforts and performance of abiding in the works God has set for me.

"Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples" (John 8.31).

My Apologetics Study Bible notes say, "Much of the belief attested to in verse 30 was probably superficial." So they were not saved to begin with. You'll find lots of people saying they believed in Jesus, coming so close to Him, but then turning back for another gospel. The audience was narrowing: "The Jews responded to Him, 'Aren't we right in saying that You're a Samaritan and have a demon?'" (v.48).

"And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him" (Acts 10.34-35).

This verse is about God showing no partiality. So why in_sert that a person can lose salvation? This verse is referring to "every nation" not to individual salvation. Is your grace cheap? Apparently, because it is your grace, not God's grace. Your grace says you can lose salvation. God's grace says once-saved-always-saved. That is a salvation you can trust.


So, you believe once you are 'saved', you no longer have any choice to reject it? I don't believe the Bible teaches such a notion. See: Romans 2:6-13, 1Tim 4:16, Heb 12:14.
The choice to believe in Christ is a choice for forever, not for a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, but for forever. You didn't address these verses. He said, "I give unto them my sheep eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

"Who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: for there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Rom. 2.6-13).

The Bible mentions obedience as well as faith, for we are not only sinners but additionally sons of disobedience. What Romans 10.16 means by "believed our report" in Isaiah 53.1 is "obeyed the glad tidings" (Darby). The nature of believing the gospel is obeying it. "Rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2 Thess. 1.8). Those who do not obey are the rebellious: "Unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth . . . shall be wrath and indignation" (Rom. 2.8). The disobedient are the rebellious ones. "Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth" (1 Peter 1.22). This clearly indicates that purification is by obedience to the truth. Faith is obedience.

Believers would best be called "obeyers," for they are to be subject to the authority of the Lord as well as to believe in Him. After Paul had been enlightened he asked: "What shall I do, Lord?" (Acts 22.10) He not only believed, he in addition submitted to the Lord. His repentance was caused both by understanding grace and by obedience to authority. When he was moved by the Holy Spirit to see the authority of the gospel, he addressed Jesus as Lord.

God calls us not only to receive His life through faith but also to maintain His authority through obedience. He counsels us who are in the church to obey the authorities He has established—in home, school, society, and church—as well as to obey His direct authority. It is not necessary to point out specifically which person you should obey. It simply means that whenever you encounter God’s authority, directly or indirectly, you should learn obedience.

Many are able to hearken to and obey only a certain person. This shows that they have not seen authority. It is vain to obey man; it is authority that we must obey. To those who know authority, even a slight disobedience will make them feel that they have been rebellious. But those who have not seen authority have no idea how rebellious they are. Before being enlightened, Paul kicked against the goads without realizing what he was doing. After enlightenment, however, the first thing which happens is that the eyes of Paul are opened to see authority, and this seeing continues to increase thereafter. Though Paul met only a little brother by the name of Ananias, he never questioned what kind of man Ananias was—whether learned or illiterate—because he was not looking at man. Paul recognized that Ananias was sent by God and he accordingly subjected himself to that delegated authority. How easy it is to obey after one has learned authority.

We should not assume a person can lose salvation by this passage. That is in_serting into the text. Paul is not contradicting his previous statements that salvation comes by faith alone: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith" (Rom. 1.16,17). Our good deeds are a grateful response. Again, you can take these words to mean those who are saved can lose rewards, but not life; and those who are not saved no matter what good works they do, they still will not be saved because they do not live by faith.

"Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee" (1 Tim. 4.16).

There are different aspects of salvation: salvation of new birth and salvation of overcoming. The salvation of overcoming is referred to here.

"Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12.14).

The sanctified position before God. Every Christian, at the time he receives the Lord, not only has had his sins forgiven and has become justified but also has been sanctified before God. God is holy; without holiness no man can see Him, commune with Him, or pray before Him. As righteousness is God’s way of doing things, so holiness is His nature. Sins are forgiven according to righteousness. Without forgiveness of sins no one can be saved. And without holiness none may see God (Heb. 12.14). Holiness is not a matter relating to sins, it relates to our being set apart to God. Because every Christian is sanctified in Christ, he therefore may come to God.

Let us see that the fruit of sanctification is not only a matter of our conduct but also a matter of our experience in nearness to and communion with God. "Follow after . . . sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12.14). No doubt we are sanctified positionally and we may boldly enter the holiest place so as to have intimate fellowship with God, but if we do not stand on the sanctified position with a true heart in fullness of faith, we seemingly will not be able to touch Him. Hence we must seek after holiness, since without it no man can see the Lord.

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it" (1 Thess. 5.23,24).

Rev. 22.4 "And they shall see his face"—In the millennial kingdom only the overcomers shall see God’s face (Heb. 12.14), since to see the face of God constantly is a special privilege.

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12).


'Keep' them against their will? See: Matt 10:22.
"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12).

They are kept in that initial choice, for their choice was a choice for eternity. Christians were saved by that choice through faith, whereas your faith has an out-clause. You can lose your faith, but Christians can never lose our faith.

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 10.22).

Again, this passage refers to the overcomers salvation, not losing eternal life.



"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [perfect] it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.6). "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39).

Except for the free will of the one so 'loved'.

Where does it say "except" your will? It doesn't say that. Just know your free will choice was did not enter into a relationship with God but the evil spirit, because you have an out-clause whereas Christians don't. Our choice was for forever.


"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God...

Led against their will?

It was their will, my will, but not your will, because remember, you said yours was "passive." Such passivity can easily be manipulated, tangled and confused by the evil spirit.



Ye have received the Spirit of adoption.... The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8.14-17). "If we are faithless, He remains faithful" (2 Tim. 2.13).

If one is 'faithless', that means one has no faith in Christ. How can one be 'saved' without faith? And, how can faith be 'alive' (not dead) without works? See: James 2:19-26, 1Peter 1:3-5.

God has the desire to do. God is not only able to perform that which He has promised, He also has the heart to do so. Having the ability but not the desire will make a promise null and void. But God has both the power and the heart to do what He promises: "he is faithful that promised" (Heb. 10.23); "if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself" (2 Tim. 2.13). As to what He has promised, God will perform to the letter towards His children. He does what He says. Otherwise, it would affect His deity, because God cannot deny himself. He is forever trustworthy. Should His promise be vain, we naturally could not commit ourselves and our affairs to Him. But God is faithful. He never swallows His word: He has promised, and where, then, is there any room for doubt?

Please do therefore learn this lesson today. You yourself are not the source of faith. Never ask yourself, "Do I have faith?", "Is my faith adequate?" These questions are useless. The more you ask, the less faith you have. Please go to God and ask Him what He has promised on this or that matter. Inquire of Him: Has Your love for me changed? Will You repent concerning Your word? Do You have the power to perform Your promise? Are You trustworthy? Are You dependable? If you think more upon God, your faith will spontaneously rise up without the need of manufacturing it. Do always remember this, that you yourself are not faithful, nor is your own faith trustworthy. God alone is the source of faith! And He is faithful!

Even a Christian who if it were possible to have no good works, yet still had faith, would still be saved, but lose rewards. His faith would certainly lose rewards. His faith would be dead like the faith of the unsaved, but since God is the one who gave Him the gift of faith, even if he is faithless, God will preserve Him in the faith.

"Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead" (James 2.19-26).

This justification here is not the justification for new birth, but is the justification unto rewards. We ought not to assume more than that. As we are justified by faith for initial salvation, we are justified by works for rewards of the millennial kingdom.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

"Guarded through faith," not through works.


He cannot deny Himself" (2 Tim. 2.13). "But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God" (John 1.12).

Yes! One must make a *choice* to believe and receive. Choice implies action. It requires repentance and discipleship. Without that, how can one be saved? See: Matt 5:20, 1John 2:17, Rev 22:14.

Choice does not imply action, for action is a work. Choice implies belief. First you must believe before you can act. To repent is not a work either, but it is part of believing. How can you believe if you don't repent? It does not require discipleship, for discipleship is a work. Discipleship is required for rewards, not for initial salvation. You can be saved in a false salvation if you require these works, but what does God say? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5.20).

Righteous is unto rewards, not to gain or maintain eternal life. None are righteous but God. There are 3 aspects of the kingdom of heaven. The aspect referred to hear is the reigning in the 1000 years. The New City and the New Earth come after that.

God places two considerations before men: first, He presents eternal life to sinners; and second, He presents the kingdom to all who already have eternal life. All who believe have eternal life; nevertheless, as Jesus said to His believing disciples, "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5.20). The Lord Jesus also declared this: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7.21). Thus we are shown that to have eternal life one need only believe, but to enter the kingdom one is required to fulfill another condition.

Soon after a person is saved he is set by God on a specific course that lies ahead of him. The entire life of a Christian can be likened to running a race. Yet this is not a racing towards the goal of eternal life. It does not mean that he who wins this race will have as his prize eternal life; on the contrary, only the person who has eternal life is qualified to run. No, the result of this race is that some of the participants are to be crowned while others will not be (see 1 Cor. 9.24-25).

When you teach non-OSAS you are hard in your own grace which is not God's grace.

"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" (1 John 2.17).

What is the will of God? Believe on Christ. And once in Christ work for His good pleasure. All dead works will be burnt up; that is not to say, because of some work you do you could lose eternal life if you were saved.

"Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and my enter in by the gates into the city" (Rev. 22.14).

All believers in Christ wash their robes. It is just a matter of timing when they do. So effectively, this verse is saying all those who repent and believe in Christ.


How could one have eternal life without choosing, accepting, believing and repenting? If an adulterer accepts salvation, does that mean he can continue commiting adultery?
The problem is not that one has eternal life by choosing to repent, accept and believe to receive Christ, but men who would say that is not enough, that you must also include works for initial salvation or works to keep that initial salvation, otherwise they will go to Hell. What love is this? This is how man controls men, like Joseph Smith tried, but God's ways are higher than his ways. What makes you think an adulterer who claims to have giving his life to Christ actually did when he still commits adultery? You need a conscience in Christ to see this.

"These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). How could a man know he had eternal life, passed out of death into life, if he had not been justified by faith which could never be lost? He couldn't.

What you are telling me is you don't know if your salvation is secure. Indeed, it is not! That can't be a good feeling Satan instills.


I would never presume to speak authoritatively on Catholicism or any other religious faith or tradition--except my own. If I want to learn about Catholicism, I will go to a priest for correct information. Why don't you try that sometimes?
I have, and they have reported the same teaching you have that you can lose salvation after new birth. By slight of hand you are trying to get out of the fact you have the same false teaching of salvation by works as the Roman Church-religious Rome! The great harlot that sits on the beast of nations that makes them drunk with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8). How is your cult any different?


"He wants you to keep His commandments. To practice discipleship. To repent of sins. To strive for perfection (Matt 5:48), although knowing we cannot achieve such in this life. But, through the grace of Christ, we can accomplish all things--eventually. We must endure to the end (Matt 10:22, 24:13 & Mark 13:13).
We don't endure to the end because we could lose salvation tomorrow. We endure to the end because there is the matter of rewards and loss of rewards of the coming millennial kingdom. Of course, if you alter God's word and you don't believe in the millennial reign of Christ on earth, and are all busy thinking about what planet you are going to rule over, that would explain some of your confusion. Christians never taught planet rulership. You're deceived as deceived can be. See Matt. 10.22, 24.13, Mark 13.13. To "endureth to the end" is to receive that reward, just as Paul thought; never did he think he could lose eternal life. So you, as a Mormon, must have a false faith.


What's the rush?

You'll understand when you get older.
I don't work for Satan, but you do. God prefers you learn to wait on the Lord, stop trying to move ahead of Him. That was the problem at the fall of Adam and Eve. It is not that God didn't want them to have knowledge, but all in good time. Patience. "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10).

The problem has nothing to do with age, but the fact that you don't want to be saved God's way. Like William Lane Craig you work so hard for your salvation? Why? Because you don't really know if you are saved. See my video I did here explain this (http://www.youtube.com/user/Parture#grid/user/CF4B548E1CC29D7F).


Wait on the Lord and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, I do! But, I thought you don't believe in subjective feelings?
Why is waiting on the Lord and following the leading of the Holy Spirit subjective feelings? The Holy Spirit works in man's spirit; there is where you follow His leading, not in your outerman's feelings. Only then will what you received in your spirit communicate to the feelings and mind and will the renewal of your soul. I believe you wait on that "passive" will for the evil spirit to enter and guide in you Mormonism because you worship multiple uncreated gods, which is logistically impossible. As you said before, you will is "passive" for entrance and strongholds to be gained by that nefarious working of Satan. There can only be one uncreated Creator. Neither were you intelligence in eternity past. You did not always exist. God created you. God is the Intelligent Designer.

An unsaved person's views seem to take on the particular predisposition of his flesh. The holder of the non-OSAS view naturally tends to be strong-willed, but the Bible says not by the will of man nor the will of the flesh is one saved. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13).


Jesus taught: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16).
But you don't believeth, for you worship multiple uncreated beings, not one uncreated Being, God of the Bible. Christians and ancient Israel were monotheist, not tritheist or polytheist. Therefore, we can conclude confidently, you were baptized by the evil spirit and entered into Satanic grace by Joseph Smith who if he didn't lie to you was certainly deceived and wanted to worship that evil spirit because that was his choice to try to alter God's word. He failed.

An unsaved person's views seem to take on the particular predisposition of his flesh. The holder of the non-OSAS view naturally tends to be strong-willed, but the Bible says not by the will of man nor the will of the flesh is one saved. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13).

This becomes your point of pride. But it is not spiritual reality. We are saved by faith, not by works, lest any man should boast. You're boasting of your will, even though it is under "passivity." You have a strong will to will works, but it is passive, because this is not God's will to passively receive salvation, but you must receive Christ for life, not for a few years later with the possibility you could lose it after. That is not true salvation.

[Churchwork]

I have assurance of my salvation--if I stay within the gospel covenant provided by the grace of Jesus.

Yes, that is the Roman Church's teaching of non-OSAS, but it is false because Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37).


There is only one redeemer of mankind, and that is Jesus Christ. So, these verses are saying that there is only one savior, Jesus Christ.

God is not only saying He is Redeemer but One Being: "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me...besides me there is no saviour" (Is. 43.9-10). "Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any" (Is. 44.8).


I believe in repentance, therefore I know I am a sinner.

But your repentance is not to Christ but to Satan, because Satan tells you that you can lose salvation tomorrow and that you always existed or that God is gods. God is One Being. You were created. There was a time before when you never existed. If you are saved, you will be resurrected for the New City in the New Earth with all God's sons and daughters. If you are not saved, you will go to Hell. If you overcome in Christ, you will return to reign with Him on Earth for the 1000 years: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev. 20.4). If you are fleshly Christian, you will lose that reward in outer darkness: "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 25.30); once that time has passed, then you will be ready for the New City.


Where do you get the notion that Mormons believe we can 'save' ourselves?
I realize from your perspective you don't think you are saving yourself, but from a conscience in Christ quickened by the Holy Spirit that Christians have, you show yourself trying to save yourself, because salvation is by works, that is to say, if your works are not up to par, you can lose salvation. But the Bible says eternal life is not by works: "by grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).


You fail to mention verse 22 in that same chapter.
The temptation "you will become just like God" (Gen. 3.5) did not happen at the fall nor is it ever going to happen. That is not the same thing as verse 22: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." To know good and evil is not the same thing to become like God in the way the serpent suggested. The kind that the serpent proposed was more than just knowing good and evil. Unless and "except ye repent" of all to do with Mormonism, "ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13.5).

Same old problems that separates you from Christians:

1) Neither can you be born-again by works nor lose the new life by works. You can lose rewards, but you can't lose life. Therefore, your salvation is false, because it is by works. Works are for overcoming, not to determine eternal life. You don't have the comfort Christians have, because you can never really know if you will end up unsaved, thus you really don't know if you are saved now. Naturally, a false salvation will be unsettling. That's why non-OSASers work so hard for their salvation, because they really don't know. They are trying to compensate for the regeneration of the spirit.

2) Claiming God is gods. There is only One uncreated Creator. If you want another being in the Godhead, you will have to find it unequivocally in Scripture, otherwise, the humble position to take without reading into the text is God is One uncreated Being. By being humble and repenting before God, unassuming, He will receive you into His fold.

3) Claiming you always existed in spirit form or intelligence is impossible since you are a created being. Scripture never allows for you always existing. Moreover, the universe was created, so the only One that was always existing was God, not man.

4) Denying the millennial kingdom (Rev. 20.2-7), which is accountability for believers, the time of recompense. And you deny the New City and New Earth for other worlds.

5) Claiming Jesus is the brother of the Devil. God has no brother. God is uncreated. Satan use to be Lucifer and Lucifer is a created being. Jesus is uncreated with the Father because they are One Being with the Spirit.

[Churchwork]

Re: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan (http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan)

"As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind." (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "Answering Media Questions About Jesus and Satan," Press release: 12 December 2007.)

If Jesus was created by God, then He is not God. Yet Mormons call Jesus God. Isn't that a contradiction? Christians believe that Jesus is both uncreated God and the Son of God. Son of God is the form Jesus took on when He entered His creation, born of a virgin. The Bible says, "Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God" (Phil. 2.6 NLT) or "who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped" (ASV). To be equal with God is to be God, not created.

I was begotten of the flesh as all humans are, so how is Jesus who is a created being according to Mormonism, the only begotten of the flesh? He is the only begotten of the flesh in Christianity because He is uncreated in the Trinity, entering into creation, but I don't see how Jesus can be the only begotten in the flesh, for humans are born in the flesh too. The Father was not begotten of the flesh, nor was the Spirit. Only the Son. And I really don't consider myself a spirit child, for I am not a spirit. I am a "living soul" with a spirit and body (Gen. 2.7; Heb. 4.12;1 Thess. 5.23). Angels are spirits.

There is nothing but logical fallacies in Mormonism. You can read the Bible without the Holy Spirit and make it into anything you like. Obviously, that is why there are so many denomination, sects and cults.

[Churchwork]

A Mormon said in the eternity of the past "the raw components of our spirit existed eternally and we were formed there"; but God said, "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me...besides me there is no saviour. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any" (Is. 43.9-10; 44.8). When making the claim you were intelligence always existing alongside God you share in His everlasting uncreatedness. Therefore, you are making yourself a god beside God which violates what God just said, there are no gods beside Him.

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god" (Is. 44.6).

The serpent lied: "God knows that your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will become just like God" (Gen. 3.5).

"Son of man, give the prince of Tyre this message from the Sovereign LORD: In your great pride you claim, `I am a god! I sit on a divine throne in the heart of the sea.' But you are only a man and not a god, though you boast that you are like a god." (Ez. 28.2)

[Churchwork]

Have you ever heard of Arminianism?
Yes, Jacob Arminius believed in once-saved-always-saved. It would be a strange faith if you were saved, then lost your salvation tomorrow, got back next Thursday, then lost it again in three months only to retrieve several years later. God is not fickle. When He gives His life its life eternal. He has the foreknowledge to do this. Unless of course you don't believe in God with this ability, who can say you are saved? The Roman Church teaches what you teach that you can lose salvation, but true salvation can never be lost as the Bible says. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29), just like Arminius taught. He said, never once did he profess a person could lose salvation. Scriptures allows for no exceptions of our will or otherwise. Eternal life received and kept is not by works, lest any man should boast: ""Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9). We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16).


Unrepented sin can cause one to lose his or her salvation. The Bible is very clear that our behavior (repentance, obedience, works) determines whether we are saved.
Nope. Whoever believes on Him shall be judged no more, because he "hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5.24). How can this happen more than once? It is a one-time, once-for-all transaction. Obedience and works are for rewards or loss of rewards. A sinner can not lose the initial salvation he received just as he can't save himself.


Paul said obedience is necessary (Heb 5:9). That implies action--repentance, righteous endeavor. And, baptism (Mark 16:16). And, repentance (2Cor 7:10). Enduring (Mark 13:13). Works (James 2:14).
But Paul never said lack of these things can make you go to Hell. Since works are unto rewards, one would lose the reigning in the kingdom, not eternal life.


Paul insisted that salvation could be lost: If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries . . . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:26-29)
This passage does not say a person can lose salvation.

What is meant by "no more a sacrifice for sins"? Some people will say: "If I sin willfully after I have known the truth, I will not be saved. It is true that God has caused His Son to bear my sins and die for me that I might be saved through believing in His Son; but if I sin willfully, then according to Hebrews 10.26 there does not remain anymore sacrifice for sins, and consequently I will not be saved. Furthermore, the next verse states that there remains ‘a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries’ (v.27). So if I sin willfully, I can only wait for two things: one is judgment, the other is the fire which shall devour the adversaries, which is hell or perdition." In the view of these people this passage of the Scriptures is directed at Christians; so that if a Christian sins willfully he cannot be saved. Let us now see whether "if we sin wilfully" has reference to Christians or to another class of people. We shall also want to see if "sin wilfully" points to ordinary sin or rather to some specific sin.

According to the statement of the Bible, those people who "sin wilfully after that [they] have received the knowledge of the truth" have "a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries". Therefore, these cannot be that class of persons, mentioned in Hebrews 6, "who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift". The "truth" mentioned here is that truth spoken of in the first part of Hebrews 10, which is the redemption accomplished once and for all by the Lord Jesus Christ. Such people know of the death of the Lord Jesus, of His shed blood and broken body. They even know that they can enter the holy place boldly through the blood of the Lord Jesus and be accepted by God, and that the sacrifice for sins has been offered once and for all, so that the work of redemption is forever completed. Now if these people should sin willfully after they have had such knowledge of the truth as this, then there remains no more a sacrifice for sins.

We need to see that if the above verses could be applied to a Christian, that is, if a Christian is tempted to lie and steal, to frequent places he ought not to go, or do things he knows he should not do, and is thereby considered as sinning willfully and is therefore not saved, who then shall be saved? Even Paul and Peter would probably not qualify for being saved! Has not Paul the believer confessed: "For not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do. . . . For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. . . . Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?" (Rom. 7.15,19,24) Does not Paul practice the evil he knows he should not do and does not do the good he knows he should do? And has not the believing Peter denied the Lord thrice before a maid? Does he not know that he is lying and that lying is sin? From all this we can know that the phrase "sin wilfully" must mean something special and not just committing a sin that one knows.

Yet this can be proven even in another way. To do so, we need to read the text of this Scripture passage all in one breath from verse 26 through 29:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
What is really meant by "sin wilfully" in verse 26? It points to the three things in verse 29; namely, (1) trodden underfoot the Son of God, (2) counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified as an unholy thing, and (3) done despite to the Spirit of grace. In sum, it means to reject the gospel of salvation. He has heard the word of God which states that Jesus is the Son of God, yet he answers by saying that Jesus is a bastard. He has heard God’s word which says that Jesus has shed His blood for the remission of sins and that His blood is most precious—even as the blood of a pure spotless lamb, but he replies by saying that the death of Jesus is a martyr’s death and that the blood Jesus shed is common just like anybody else’s. He has heard the word of God which says that the Holy Spirit brings repentance and gives eternal life, nevertheless he retorts by declaring that he does not believe God will impart to him what Jesus has accomplished nor does he believe in new birth. Because of this kind of reaction, the Bible’s word is that there remains to him no more sacrifice for sins.

What is meant by "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins"? "No more" indicates that there once was. We must pay particular attention to this word "more". In this connection please note the following passages of the Scriptures:

"Who needeth not daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people: for this he did once for all, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7.27).

"Nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb. 9.12).

"Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own; else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . . So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many . . ." (Heb. 9.25-28).

"Else would they not have ceased to be offered? because the worshippers, having been once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins" (Heb. 10.2).

"By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" (Heb. 10.10-12).

Why do all the above passages indicate that the Lord Jesus has not offered himself many times but only once? It is because, beginning from Chapter 7, the book of Hebrews dwells on the comparison between the sacrifice which the Lord Jesus has offered and the sacrifices offered in the Old Testament period. The Lord Jesus Christ has offered himself only once and has forever accomplished eternal redemption; whereas the sacrifices mentioned in the Old Testament were in the form of bulls and goats which were offered year by year. Individually speaking, anyone living in the dispensation of the Old Testament had to bring and offer a bullock or a goat or a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons as a sin-offering each time he sinned. Corporately speaking, the whole congregation of Israel had to offer yearly, on the day of atonement, the sin-offering.

Why must they offer bulls and goats as sacrifices year after year? Because the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins. People had to offer sacrifice for the sins of this year as well as the sins of last year. Only Jesus Christ through the eternal Spirit has offered himself to God, and by so doing has obtained eternal redemption so that He has perfected forever us who are sanctified (Heb. 9.14,12; 10.14).

Consequently, Hebrews 10 follows this up by saying that anyone who has heard the truth and yet has sinned willfully has rejected the Holy Spirit as well as the blood of the Son of God. For such a person who has despised the Son of God there remains no more sacrifice for sins. For people in the Old Testament time, if they missed the opportunity for atonement one year they still might have it the following year. But today, if any man should reject Jesus Christ, there does not remain anymore sacrifice for sins, since even the sin-offering of the Old Testament dispensation has passed and is therefore no longer effective. Whoever has the knowledge of the truth but rejects it has no more sacrifice for sins available to him. For "in none other is there salvation" (Acts 4.12). God had done His uttermost when He sent the Lord Jesus Christ to this world to accomplish the work of redemption so that we might be saved. There is therefore nothing more He can add. Accordingly, the Bible tells us that if any man should sin willfully, that is, reject the gospel which he has heard and known, it is finished and done with for him. His end is nothing but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 6.1-8 says that the end of the class of people therein mentioned is "nigh to a curse"; but Hebrews 10.26-29 says that the result for its group of people is to be burned with the "fire which shall devour the adversaries"; how then can this latter group ever point to Christians? This passage can mean none but those who have knowingly rejected the gospel, therefore there is no other salvation. Otherwise, why should the word "more" be used in saying "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins"? Why should the word "once" be used repeatedly in the preceding verses? By joining these words within their context, we can easily discern the meaning of the words "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins".


If we are 'chosen' and 'elected' without our choosing or repentance, why is there much preaching, commanding and instructing in the New Testament?
We are chosen by repenting and believing in Christ, but God doesn't change His mind: "For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn" (Rom. 11.29).


You're a Calvinist.
No, I don't believe in Calvinism. I believe in OSAS Arminian.


For this reason our salvation is eternally secured-You mean forced against our will?
No. It really is a choice for eternity. An authentic choice. Not a choice with a get-out clause.


Even if we don't accept it? Are we 'elected' and have no say in the matter?
No. That's Calvinism. If you don't accept it, after claiming you were saved, in reality, you were never saved to begin with. You keep talking about how you can lose salvation. It makes one think you are not saved to begin with. Where you have inserted to passages you can lose salvation if you are born-again, the verses don't actually say that.


Through our own free will. That is the classic debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. It has been going on since about the 4th Century. Calvinists are in the minority in this debate. Mormons are not part of it. We get our soteriology from God through His prophets--ancient and modern. That's the real issue.
You've actually misconstrued this debate. The debate is not about whether you can lose salvation because Arminians are OSAS. Rather, the debate is about how to get saved in the first place.


Our salvation must also be eternal-It is--once we receive it. The big question that has been debated for hundreds of years is whether that comes at the beginning of the 'journey', or at the end. I believe it comes at the end when we stand before God on the Day of Judgement.

What is eternal life? "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17.3). This tells me you are not born-again, you don't know Jesus Christ, because you admit you don't have eternal life.


"He is equal with God, therefore His hand is as strong as God’s hand." - See: John 10:29 and 14:28.
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all..." (John 10.29). You're misreading this verse. It is not saying God the Father created the Son, but rather in terms of authority before the foundations of the world, the Son agreed with the Father the Son would be the perfect obedience unto the Father to show mankind how to be. "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" (John 14.28). Same principle. You know full well this is how Christians read these verses, so you are seeking to change the times and the ways. That's what cults do.


So, you admit works and faith are linked? You can't have one without the other. It doesn't matter which comes first, they are both necessary.
They are both necessary, but not for the same purposes. Repentance and faith unto regeneration get you in the door, but works get you to the mansion. We who are saved are all going to overcometh one day, but some of us will do so sooner and thus receive reward for the 1000 years.


Can faith only save you without works? See James 2:14.
Yes, faith can save you without works; in fact, works can't make you a new creation of God. "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

In James 2.14, we see a man who claims salvation, but when you see his fruit you know his faith is superficial, not real, so not saved: "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" It does not mean he can lose salvation if he is really saved or that works are required for salvation as we have seen in the above verses salvation is by faith not by works, lest anyone should boast.


There is no 'threatening'. Only the person himself can 'threaten his own salvation by rejecting Jesus and His gospel.
You may feel threatened, but the fact remains the 5 unwise virgins are the same class of people as the 5 wise virgins with oil in their lamps, except the 5 unwise don't fill up with oil in their vessels. There are consequences for Christians, not loss of life, but loss of rewards. That's what the 1000 years is all about: the time of recompense without which this world would hardly be just. It is accountability which you are threatened by.


You believe in force. I believe in free will. That is the classic, ancient debate. In any case, salvation is always linked to behavior. You even admit it in your above comments. The difference is your use of the word: *constrain*, which implies force. I believe the Holy Spirit witnesses to the believer to persuade him to stay away from evil, but does not force him.
What you construe as force, I construe as God's love that we chose to enter into for the promise of God's keeping us and no man can pluck us out of His hand. Your god is either unwilling or unable to do this. Satan loves to cast doubt and give you a salvation of doubt and can fall out of which can only lead to death. The salvation of overcoming is always linked to behavior and works, but never is the free gift of salvation that all we need do is repent and believe in Christ to receive eternal life at new birth. Eternal life is an ability to know God and enter into a relationship with Christ. Previously, you said you don't have this life. Constrain is a pleasantly reigning in when we may backslide. That is the kind of Protector that you would want. Such persuasion is most convincing like a loving parent that doesn't let her child cross a busy street. Your god though lets you cross even that street which you may perish. That is not comforting.

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead" (2 Cor. 5.14). "For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me" (Job 32.18).


I agree that one cannot escape the 'hand of God'. But, I don't agree with 'irresitible grace'. I'm not a Calvinist.
I don't believe in irresistible grace either. I am an OSAS Arminian.


Salvation is a personal choice. Not an irresistible mandate.
Salvation is a personal choice, not a choice to enter in getting saved, then the sad choice to leave it. Not at all. God won't waste His time saving you in the first place then. Hence, you are not saved, since you could leave any minute. Nor is it irresistible grace.


Because God respects free will. He does not force anyone to heaven.
I don't think God is respecting free will if a person can lose salvation, because salvation is a free will choice for eternity with God not a choice to enter in and then get out in a couple years. That is a vain and superficial salvation, the one you have. In such a case God would be forcing a false salvation on you. Whereas true salvation is once-saved always. God's love will constrain your authentic choice, because you know you don't have the strength to keep it, but trusting in God, He keeps you. You're trying to save yourself, but you can't do it. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13). You're only deceiving yourself and letting a cult control you on that basis like the Roman Church controls its adherents with fear of not keeping up works you could lose their organization's salvation.


Only in your Calvinistic mind.
You are misconstruing Calvinism. I reject all 5 points of Calvinism. The 5th point of OSAS Arminian is not the same thing as the 5th point of Calvinism. The 5th point of OSAS is as was said before a choice for life, but in Calvinism it is forced, because it wasn't the person's choice to enter in in the first place.


"I give unto them my sheep eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28)-That verse does not say or imply that they have no choice to turn away. That is a Calvinistic assumption.
This verse says "they shall never perish." That's the plain reading of the text. Calvinists misuse this verse to say God forces them and pride themselves on that basis, for a Calvinist didn't enter into salvation with the choice afforded to him. But an OSAS Arminian did receive the choice and made the choice for forever, so God does His part so "they shall never perish." And your salvation is false also because you assume eternal life is by works, so it doesn't matter what the text says. After all, Mormons say some of the Bible is wrong. You're not distinguishing between what Arminius and Calvin taught, so I can see how you are confused.


Paul said obedience is necessary for salvation (Heb 5:9).
Such kind of salvation is eternal. Once saved, forever saved. "Having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation" (Heb. 5.9). The salvation which the Lord has accomplished for us is eternal, therefore our salvation is also eternal. Once you are born-again, you tend to obey Him.


Interesting interpretation. But, I still disagree.
I could sense some crumbling there. Let me repeat that point. "Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee" (1 Tim. 4.16). There are different aspects of salvation: salvation of new birth and salvation of overcoming. The salvation of overcoming is referred to here. Read Rev. chapters 2 & 3 about the "overcometh" warning to each church period.


The real issue is whether any unclean or unrighteous person can live with God forever.
Exactly, so you have to ask yourself how you can maintain yourself by works, whereas a Christian is kept by God even though he may falter here or there. "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12). This was a choice for life with no Mormon out-clause.


There has to be an 'out-clause' in order to preserve free will. I am not a Calvinist.
No, there doesn't have to be an out-clause for God to preserve free will if it is true salvation, for God keeps as 2 Tim. 1.12 the choice "committed" which is a choice for forever. You're not a Calvinist, but neither are you an Arminian. You're a non-OSASer.


Then, why doesn't it say 'overcomers salvation'? You are just interpreting that passage to fit your Calvinistic assumptions. You are wrong!
It doesn't have to always say overcomers to mean overcoming. Look. The Bible is not about mostly salvation and unsalvation, but overcoming salvation for believers. It is a book for believers: "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 10.22). Read it as intended and it will come alive to you like never before.

I am persuaded by God you are not saved because your faith is not on solid rock: once-saved-always-saved.


I have never said my will was 'passive'. You have not answered whether that word 'led' means against their will.

You said "It implies more than just a simple, passive belief." Belief is not passive. But it is real and authentic, requiring no works to make it as you say, impassive. You are unwilling to repent to the cross of salvation to receive Christ once-saved-always-saved. That lacking repentance is why you have an out-clause, because it is not solid and real. What you construe as non-passive is adding in man's works to keep the eternal life you haven't even got yet, according to your theory. Yuck! I have something right now you don't have. Eternal life! Praise God!

Your god takes away from you your free will to have the choice for forever in a keeping God. This free will option is not available to you according to the god of Mormonism. Please go to God and ask Him what He has promised. Inquire of Him: Has Your love for me changed? Will You repent concerning Your word? Do You have the power to perform Your promise? Are You trustworthy? Are You dependable? If you think more upon God, your faith will spontaneously rise up without the need of manufacturing it. Do always remember this, that you yourself are not faithful, nor is your own faith trustworthy. God alone is the source of faith! And He is faithful!


Doesn't say we can't reject what we have.
If you can reject it, it only means you didn't enter into salvation to receive eternal life immediately upon being born-again. You're unwilling to repent and believe in the True Christ for that kind of salvation. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5). My faith is guarded and can never fade away, whereas yours can. God keeps me from rejecting Him, because that was my choice to enter into. Whereas you entered into one where you could get out. You didn't read your marriage vows.

Faith without works is dead just false faith with works is dead.


Choice certainly does imply action.
Choice is a choice; action is a work. To be saved you will need to choose the God who can keep you and will never let you go. Right now you worship a fickle god who will let you go.


Faith is much stronger than belief. And, faith without works is dead.
Faith is belief. Faith without works is not real faith, just as works without real faith are dead.


restitution is part of the process. If a thief steals something from you, part of his repentance would be to return what he stole. That is a 'work'.
Sometimes you don't have the means to pay back, so does that mean you can't be saved? Of course not. Faith is a free gift that anyone can be saved. Not paying back what you can pay back after being saved may lose rewards, but it can't lose you life.


Yes, and what's wrong with that? Why are you so negative toward 'works'? You have acknowledged it is part of the salvation process. Certainly part of true faith.
I am positive towards work. You are negative towards work, because you think work can lose you salvation. Not at all. Salvation is a free gift of God, not by works, lest any man should boast. Therefore, works is unto rewards, not loss of life. Since you admit I "have acknowledged it is part of the salvation process. Certainly part of truth faith" then why do you think that is negative? Paul never thought he could lose eternal life. Alas, you claim you don't have eternal life, and I agree, you don't.


I disagree. You can argue that works follow initial salvation, but you must admit that if works don't follow, there is no real salvation.
I said, "Discipleship is required for rewards, not for initial salvation" which you disagree. Why do you think discipleship is not required for rewards? Don't you believe in accountability? You think discipleship is for initial salvation!? That is works. Man can't save himself. He is a sinner. You even admit if works don't follow, the person was not really saved to begin with. Therefore, it is not that he lost salvation, but was never saved to begin with.


I don't believe God extends grace to unrepentant sinners. The unrighteous are not saved.
Then you should admit that you are not saved, because you are unwilling to repent and believe in Jesus Christ who saves to the uttermost, once-saved-always-saved. You would rather believe in something lesser, that can only save you if you are a good worker. You are unrighteous, for this false teaching.


To become a disciple of Christ, to be saved, is a choice that implies action, direction, decision and commitment. Without all that, how can you be saved?
Becoming a new creation in a choice+works is you saving yourself, but you can't do that, you are a sinner. Sinners can't save themselves. That's why salvation is a free gift to anyone who believes in God. A choice for Christ knows nothing of what actions to even take, so it is not faith plus works, but God will lead us into the works He has apportioned for us if we are diligent in Him. What you need to concern yourself with is the problem of your faith implying opportunity for losing faith which is not true faith.


Paul mentions three heavens (2Cor 12:2).
3rd Heaven is Paradise above. The angels are in 3rd Heaven. The fallen angels have fallen down to 2nd heaven. The earth and the natural universe we see is 1st heaven.


Why do you call it 'kingdom of heaven' when you are talking about earth? I believe the Kingdom of God ison the earth and the kingdom of heaven is, well, in heaven.

There are 3 aspects of the kingdom of heaven and 3 aspects of the Kingdom of God. Try to understand.

After the birth of Christ, there comes one who prepares the way for Him. His name is John, and he proclaims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The Lord, together with the apostles whom He sends forth, announce the same news. What does it mean? Later on, as noted in chapters 8 and 9, we see that the Lord heals the sick and casts out demons, and that all these are closely related to the nearness of the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5-7 speaks of the nature of the kingdom of heaven: which is, that those who belong to this kingdom are absolutely righteous towards themselves, absolutely gracious towards others, and absolutely pure towards God. In Matthew 10 we learn that the Lord sends out His apostles. And in Matthew 11-12 we see that a great transition begins occurring, as though the kingdom of heaven is now being taken away from the Jews. Now with regard to the kingdom of heaven found spoken of in Matthew 13, some interpreters have asserted that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are the kingdom of heaven in mystery. Such an assertion is logically unsound when it is held up against all the things which we have just seen: how that both John and the Lord as well as His disciples proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, how that the Lord then announces the nature or character of this kingdom, and how after He is rejected by the children of Israel He in the thirteenth chapter is found declaring only the outward boundary of this kingdom (what we see in this age being but the outward appearance). So that chapter 13 does not deal with the character or nature of the kingdom of heaven, for this has already been described in Matthew 5-7.
Some, on the other hand, contend that all who desire to enter the kingdom of heaven mentioned in chapter 13 must possess the character of the kingdom of heaven as laid down in chapters 5-7. This interpretation again is impossible to accept, since in chapter 13 we have presented the tares, the leaven, and so forth as being in the kingdom of heaven. So that this chapter presents to us nothing but the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven.
The kingdom of heaven is not the millennial kingdom; it is the reigning in the millennial kingdom. Let us see that the kingdom of heaven has three different aspects.

(1)An outward appearance, boundary, or scope as is shown to us in Matthew 13.
(2)A spiritual reality, that is to say, a kind of spiritual conduct which is formed as a result of learning righteousness and grace progressively under the authority of God and which is elucidated for us in Matthew 5-7; and
(3)A reigning with Christ in the future millennial kingdom as revealed in the fact of our future reward as told to us in Matthew 5-7.

Accordingly, we must first of all enter into the sphere or boundary of this kingdom of heaven by being sons of the kingdom; then secondly, we need to have the kind of conduct described for us in Matthew 5-7 – which is to have real spiritual conduct; and lastly, as a consequence we may reign with the Lord.

Today there are three different kinds of people:
(1)those who have entered within the sphere of the kingdom of heaven and yet unsaved; these are represented by tares.
(2)those who have been saved and are in the domain of the kingdom of heaven, ye they fail to keep the teaching of Matthew 5-7.
(3) those who are saved and also keep the teaching of Matthew 5-7; they truly overcome, and therefore in the future they shall reign with the Lord in the third stage or aspect of the kingdom of heaven.

A Comparison Between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God

The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are distinguishable but are not separable. Let us consider in some detail these two descriptive phrases found in Scriptures.
(1)With certain parables Matthew employs the statement “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto . . . “; but Luke uses the words “The kingdom of God is like. . . . “ for the same parables – thus indicating that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same. Both the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven in these parallel instances refer to the outward domain of the kingdom. On this level, it can be said that the outward appearances of both the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are alike. Parables such as that of the leaven belong to this category.
(2)Yet the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not synonymous with respect to the second aspect of the kingdom of heaven, inasmuch as what is described in Matthew 5-7 speaks of actual overt behavior whereas “the kingdom of God is righteous and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14.17). The one stresses spiritual conduct; the other inner spiritual condition.
(3)Even so, in the third aspect of the kingdom of heaven is again similar to the kingdom of God since both refer to the matter of reigning during the millennial kingdom.

Though the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are similar as regards the first aspect, the kingdom of God covers also the time of which the prophets in the Old Testament speak – for whenever the sovereignty of God is present, His domain is there at the same time. But this characteristic is not applicable to the kingdom of heaven.

With regard to the third aspect, it is true that the kingdom of God is the same as the kingdom of heaven in that both refer to ruling with Christ in the millennium; yet the kingdom of God extends further on into eternity since in eternity God also reigns – but by that time the kingdom of heaven will have passed away. With respect to the third aspect, therefore, the kingdom of God exists longer than the kingdom of heaven.

In certain sense it can be said that the kingdom of God includes the kingdom of heaven, but not vic versa.

So far as the outward official history of the church on earth goes today, there can be said to be the Roman Catholic Church, the national churches, and the private churches. The Roman Catholic Church claims that the entire world is under her domain and that no national church is therefore allowed. The national church such as the Anglican Church asserts that every citizen of the nation belongs to the Church. But due to dissatisfaction with the national churches, there came into being the so-called private churches.

As regards to the outward sphere, as long as people say they are Christians, no one can drive them out of the kingdom of heaven; for the Lord has not promised to weed out the tares today. At communion or the Lord’s Table or the breaking of bread, however, the church may indeed weed out or separate the unsaved and the wicked from the saved ones. So that in the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven, such as in a national church, unbelieving people may be included therein, but in the sphere of the believing assembly an unsaved person may be excluded from fellowship. This clarifies the two totally different spheres: that of the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven and that of the church. Within the boundary of the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven there may be tares; but within the churches the body of Christ there is only wheat no tares.


Only Calvinists believe in OSAS.
I am an Arminian. Arminians are OSAS like others such as Dave Hunt and Watchman Nee. Why does this offend you?


That only makes my point that choosing, repenting, commiting and being baptized are 'works' that are connected or linked to being 'saved'. Does it really matter whether they come before or after one is saved?

The Bible says choosing is not a work. "He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him" (Heb. 7.25). Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37). Baptism follows salvation. It's called credobaptism. Repentance leads to choosing, but neither is repentance a work. Committing to a God who keeps is a salvation which you have not entered into. Works won't save you, you're just relying on your flesh.


A man can know he has eternal life as long as he stays in the covenant. He has that assurance. He also has his free will to reject or withdraw. God does force that man to stay against his will.

Before you said eternal life is in the future, not present, but the Bible disagrees with you. "These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). For you to be made to stay would be forced because you have an out-clause. But Christians have keeping-in-clause and that is true salvation. True repentance is saying to God, I don't know how to do this, all I know is I trust in you to keep me to the end, so when I falter, your promise is assured that you will not let me fall back. You were unwilling to commit to this kind of salvation, so that is why you are going to Hell, not the least of which the many other strange things you teach claiming God is gods and there were multiple intelligences always existing. What does the Bible have to say about that?

the Persons of the Godhead (http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2902789/k.446A/The_Trinity__Jesus__Apologetics.htm) are co-equal, co-inherent and uncreated One Being for Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" being (John 10.30), "one Lord" (Deut.6.4) "from everlasting to everlasting" (Ps. 90.2; 1 Chron. 16.36, 29.10; Neh. 9.5). "Believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10.38) proves that the Father and the Son are One Being" (Deut. 19.3). "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me...besides me there is no saviour. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any" (Is. 43.9-10; 44.8). It is God "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. No one has seen the Father except the one [Jesus] who is from God; only he has seen the Father" (1 Tim. 6.16; see John 1.18)-tells us only God is uncreated and Jesus is God because Jesus can see the Father. In Isaiah 9.6 the Son is our originator: "everlasting father, referring to Him being the author of existence. Isaiah 40.28 says "The Lord is the everlasting God" and in Habakkuk 1.12, the rhetorical question "O Lord, are you not from everlasting?" is asked. We don't see these words describing God's uncreated existence characterizing man as a prior intelligence. In Colossians 1.16 we are told that "All things were created by him [Jesus]," the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev. 22.13,16). This expression tells us that God existed first, none with Him or before Him. "For in him [or, by him] were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him" (Col. 1.16).


If I am not commited to Christ and His gospel, I have no such assurance. But, I am commited. So, I can rely on Christ's promises--not on His forcing me to conform. Remember, it is a two-way covenant--I and Jesus walking hand in hand in a saved condition. As long as I hold onto that Hand, I am saved. I have that assurance. Nothing can pluck me out of His hand--except my own letting go of it. If that happened, it is not Jesus' fault. That's what free will is about. Calvinism is about determinism and force. It is not biblical. Most Christians reject it.
How could you have assurance, since you worship a god who has not promised to keep you no matter what? In fact you really don't even know if you will have eternal life in the future, because you admit you might change your mind. If you are truly saved nothing can pluck you out of God's hand, not even you, because you would have entered into a permanent covenant with Him to be kept thick or thin. But you don't want that relationship. You want a works based salvation in which you can opt out at any time. You're in an uncommitted relationship which is not with Jesus Christ, but you worship a false Christ. The Mormon Jesus is just another one of those false Christs out there. Calvinism is false, but so is non-OSASism. Most Christians reject Calvinism and non-OSASism. The truth hurts when you are not in the truth.


Because I am not a Catholic and it would be presumptuous of me to do so. That does not mean I can't have opinions about Catholicism (or, any other 'ism'). But, only Catholics can speak authoritatively about their own faith--not you or me.
Your cult is very similar to the Roman Church. You both hold non-OSAS works salvation. You both have various temple rituals and much of secret at higher levels. You both deny the coming millennial reign of Christ and time of recompense (Rev. 20.2-7). You both add books to God's word in the 66 books. You have men as your idols, etc., etc. You even have your own pope as it were.


That's because Catholics are not Calvinists.
Rather, that's because they are not OSAS Arminians.


Neither are LDS Christians.
Praise the Lord at least you realize that LDS are not Christians. Christians are defined as believing in the Triune God: God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit as the On and Only uncreated Being before time began. And nothing existed then but God. And no, God is not gods.


But, many anti-Mormons like to accuse Mormons of relying on feelings when we testify of what we believe.
Since you don't solve logical contradictions you must be living in the passions of your flesh. For example, how can there be multiple uncreated beings or intelligences as some Mormons put it, without asking the question where did they all come from and why were they separate from each other? I like to use the phrase "star dust". How is star dust intelligence? Furthermore, how is God gods? He is no longer a personal Being then. Because no Mormon has ever been able to reconcile these contradictions, we know what you worship is Satan.


That is official LDS doctrine. There are hints of it in the Bible (Jeremiah 1:5). But, we get that doctrine from modern extra-biblical revelation. That's the real issue.
Intelligence implies being. That passive acceptance mindless of multiple beings that always existed has no basis, and gives no reason why down the street another cult is not just as legitimate with its differing number of different beings that always existed. That's just plain goofy. You really didn't think this out properly. Any false teaching inevitably has gaping hopes. There are many in Mormonism, but I find this to be the biggest one. There are no hints of multiple uncreated always existing different beings or intelligences. We have only ever seen One uncreated Being in Scripture. God!

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jer. 1.5). This verse is referring to God's infinite foreknowledge, not preexisting spirits or whatever you call them this decade as I get confused by all the changes in your cult. You plunge into a fantasy life with this one verse and don't read it as it was meant to be read as originally intended.


Some day you will learn that we did [always exist]
Some day you will realize this is how you keep yourself eternally separated from God and sends you to Hell, because you make yourself equal with God in always having existed. Shame on you!

"Son of man, give the prince of Tyre this message from the Sovereign LORD: In your great pride you claim, `I am a god! I sit on a divine throne in the heart of the sea.' But you are only a man and not a god, though you boast that you are like a god." (Ez. 28.2)

Some gods claim to always have existed when they didn't. "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god" (Is. 44.6). The serpent lied: "God knows that your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will become just like God" (Gen. 3.5).

God is from everlasting to everlasting. Not you. Oh how that must pain you!

It's a logical contradiction to be be created and yet always existed. You really need a new word for created. It's misleading. You're changing Biblical terms and redefining them. Cults love to do that.


Calvinism is not biblical
You're like a clanging bell. Yes, I know Calvinism is not Biblical. You missed the point. An unsaved person's views seem to take on the particular predisposition of his flesh. The holder of the non-OSAS view naturally tends to be strong-willed, but the Bible says not by the will of man nor the will of the flesh is one saved. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13). Here will of man does not refer to choice, but rather, man's planning in works. Will of the flesh here points to man's passions, emotional pursuits. And of course, of blood refers to physical. Calvinists like to misuse this verse too when they treat it as denying man the free-choice. You guys are crazy! You non-OSASers and Calvinists! May God forgive you for you know not what you do.


We have discussed this before. I have sent you evidence to the contrary. As usual, you did not rebut it. Only dismissed and gave me insulting opinions. Therefore, I will not re-visit.
I have replied to a large bulk of your material, which you hadn't responded to in kind, so the burden is on you. Your vague response is most telling. Why be coy? Address it at least in some words, and not none at all.

If you strip all the bizarre teachings away in Mormonism or LDS, I think the 3 most important proofs that you are going to Hell are these:

1) Unwilling to repent to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior who presents you to the Father who can and does keep you eternally, knowing your own will is untrustworthy to keep yourself a thousand years, 10 years or even one year. It is clear you are unsaved because you think you can save yourself by works. No you can't! You think too highly of yourself. Trust in God who keeps, not you can keep yourself saved.

2) You worship not the Christian God and you admit that LDS is not Christian. But Christianity is the 66 books written and by Textual Criticism proven without add-ons. In other words, there is only One uncreated Being and it is logically incoherent to claim an always existing whatever you call it, different intelligences, etc. without asking yourself where they all came from. Do you realize how this is henotheism and polytheism? As well as atheistic, because atheists also teach an always existing whatever that is not God.

3) The number of revisions and transformations your cult takes shows it is untrustworthy. Are we to believe the current decade teachings are the correct ones and not the originals or subsequent decades from its founder? You sugar coat things up but you can always find the holes. You ought to ask yourself why don't you adhere to the original of your leader? Contrast this with Christianity in which the NT is still the same (with consistent Creeds).

You also teach nearly universalism with few going to Hell. It does not reflect the human condition very well. Your god is just too impersonal for Christians and leave confused what is to happen after you die, as you seem to be changing from classical Mormonism which teaches you will be a god of worlds. I know you need to change the story, but being coy about it is likely due to embarrassment, rather than being an open book of the Lord. Perhaps you are embarrassed about it and think it needs to get revised like other Mormon doctrines, e.g. treatment of blacks, polygamy, etc.

My prayers go out to you to yet receive Christ, the one who saves eternally at new birth and a Father who can keep you inspite of your weakness. Amen.

[Churchwork]

You are just repeating yourself bringing up old issues we have 'discussed' and disagreed over. You have my reasons for not agreeing with you. It all comes down to our differing world religious world views and assumptions. You accept only your understand of your Bible. I accept all that God reveals today as well anciently. I accept modern prophets and the restored New Testament Church as represented by the LDS Church. That will always be the *real issue* that separates us. Some day we will both know who is 'right'. I am sure we will meet some day on that great day when the books are opened. Until then, I see no need to continue wasting each other's time with useless harangues. I will probably answer any remaining posts with very brief responses.
They may be old issues, but still they are problems which you are unable to resolve. It is not just a matter of disagreeing, but literally there is no justification for assuming multiple always having existed intelligences. A reasonable person asks where do they come from rather than just assuming they existed. In all your posts you have never given a reason for why you would assume this other than pride itself. In Christianity there are no assumptions, but your assumption is gaping wide, you can shove a galaxy through it. God doesn't reveal multiple always existing intelligences today nor yesteryear were there such things. There was just One uncreated Being and Creator. That's it. Not man or spirit children or beings or gods, but only the Trinity "from everlasting to everlasting" (Ps. 90.2; 1 Chron. 16.36, 29.10; Neh. 9.5).

So your sin is this. "Son of man, give the prince of Tyre this message from the Sovereign LORD: In your great pride you claim, `I am a god! I sit on a divine throne in the heart of the sea.' But you are only a man and not a god, though you boast that you are like a god" (Ez. 28.2). God covers all such claims whether spirit children, intelligences or gods as gods.

Anything you want to claim as being prophets for today, must still agree with God's word, and since Joseph Smith and you bring in teachings that violates God's inerrant word, then you know you and Smith are false. The Church has never taught such things and did not have to wait 18 centuries to find out. How sad that would be that for 1800 years people couldn't get saved. If Christ doesn't return I am sure in the year 2800 and 3800 there will be another fanciful cult, but since there is nothing under the sun, it will have to just rehash previous false teachings like the Mormons do which is really just Greek mythology and of pagan religions of many preexisting beings.

By claiming multiple always having existed separate intelligences you are not restoring anything anymore than John Calvin thought he was the Reformation, not realizing the Reformation is just "justification by faith".
"Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9). We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16).

We will not meet up as you think. Rather, the Bible says "But the rest of the dead [referring to the unsaved] lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. 20.5). You are going to be resurrected a thousand years after I am resurrected, and then you will be cast into Hell for all eternity. We won't meet up as you say. Remember, you worship a creator who really doesn't create out of nothing or out of Himself, because you always existed you said as a spirit child or spirit dust (like atheism) or intelligences, whatever you call it. This is your idolatry, your pet false teaching. What you worship is self, called henotheism, of a god and gods (or intelligences). But the Bible says, "God said, "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me...besides me there is no saviour. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any" (Is. 43.9-10; 44.8). There is no way around it. When making the claim you were intelligence always existing alongside God you pridefully, pompously and arrogantly share in His everlasting uncreatedness. Therefore, you are making yourself a god beside God which violates what God just said, there are no gods beside Him.

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god" (Is. 44.6).

Furthermore, your false teaching of non-OSAS is devastating to your claim. "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). It doesn't say, I will give them eternal life if they keep my commandments. It says those who are saved, the sheep, shall never perish. Period. Adding and inserting into the verse is your sin for your cult and why you are not saved, because you too selfish to repent and believe in a God who can keep you eternally; rather you worship self who thinks you can keep yourself eternally. Could there be any greater arrogant thought and pride? You really don't know your own condition very well. What a fickle god who gives life, takes it away and gives it back maybe. Wouldn't it be better to worship a God who has the foresight to give it one time. Just as you can only be born physically once, you can only be born spiritually once, always saved.

My prayers go out to you, you can repent and leave your cult.

[Churchwork]

Jesus is, indeed, God. But, He is not the only true God. See: John 17:3. See: Numbers 16:22, Acts 17:29, Heb 12:9.

That's right, Jesus is not the Father. That would be modalism. The Church rejects that teaching. The only true God is referring to the 1st Person being the only true Father, but Jesus is God too in that He always existed with the Father and Spirit and none other: no prior intelligences. If you got no evidence for it, you can't add that idea in. The Bible says nothing about God creating gods, i.e. creating Jesus. He always existed so He was not created. So the sin at the end of the day is you worship gods and claim multiple uncreated always having existed intelligences or gods or spirit children. That's polytheism or henotheism. God covers it all by saying only He is from everlasting and there are no gods beside Him.

"And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?" (Num. 16.22) This verse doesn't mean you existed as a spirit before? How absurd! It means you have a spirit in your body, for remember, when God breathed in the breath of life into the body from dust, the soul life was formed so you have a spirit, soul and body. You are a living soul with a spirit (inner man) and body (outermost man). See Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23. No Christians in the history of the Church claim this means you were a previously always having existed intelligence or whatever you call it. Ah, the pride of life!

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. " (Acts 17.29). You are fashioning the Godhead according to your own devices, plates of god or crystal gazing on stones by Joseph Smith and man's devices of sexual progenitors. That is so narrow minded. As offspring God made us in His image. To be made in His image does not imply any preexistence. Again, you in_sert into the text that which is not there. The basic meaning of being created means you never existed before in any form or matter. See the Hebrew term for created in Gen. 1.1. Same applies to Heb.12.9. God created us; nothing about a former existence of self. That can only lead to various many false teachings because it feeds pride, pride has no humility and it begets the fall. Christians would not want to spend an eternity with you, because you will still be worshiping self that you always had existed and you worship Jesus among many gods rather than as the Creator of the universe with the Father and the Spirit in the Trinity Whom existed alone before time began.

My prayers go out to you, you can have a change of mind. You can let go and become a Christian, receiving the True Christ among many false Christs. Amen.

[Churchwork]

Jesus is not a 'created' Being. I have told you before that Mormons do not believe Jesus was created. Only His physical body was created or begotten. His Spirit pre-existed His physical body.

As I said before, you really need a new word for created, because created doesn't mean just some part of your body restored any more than my resurrection when I am given a new body will I become created.

Again, the problem you face is many preexisting beings or intelligences. The Bible doesn't say any such thing. Scripture only reveals One uncreated Being: the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. You add onto that and moreover make Jesus another being than the Father and the Spirit, but the Bible treats Jesus equal with the Father, thus He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity of One substance, not separate.

I was begotten of the flesh as all humans are, so how is Jesus who is a created being according to Mormonism, the only begotten of the flesh? He is the only begotten of the flesh in Christianity because He is uncreated in the Trinity, entering into creation, but I don't see how Jesus can be the only begotten in the flesh, for humans are born in the flesh too. The Father was not begotten of the flesh, nor was the Spirit. Only the Son in the Trinity. And I really don't consider myself a spirit child, for I am not a spirit. I am a "living soul" with a spirit and body (Gen. 2.7;Heb. 4.12;1 Thess. 5.23). Angels are spirits. Men are not souls. Get use to it because it ain't going to change.

You're not being logical. In the simpliest way possible I know how, appreciate the contradiction. How can Jesus be the only begotten in the flesh if you and I are begotten in the flesh also? Obviously, Jesus would not then be the only begotten in the flesh. You worship multiple uncreated beings, whereas Christian worship One uncreated being. You are a henotheistic polytheizer, whereas Christians are Monotheistic. If God of the OT was constantly fighting those in their many pagan gods, you are God's enemy also because you have just transformed those many gods into many preexisting beings also which is really no different. God said they are in fact just idols. These are the idols of Mormonism just like the Roman Church have their idols and both of you claim you can lose salvation tomorrow, which shows you didn't have the repentance and faith in a God who can keep eternally. You guys depend on self-works to keep you saved, after all, you always existed as intelligences, so you think. What vanity!

[Churchwork]

[Alleged] Early Christian Evidence

No this is not early Christian evidence, since this is not in the Bible and the early church fathers didn't teach it either. Lactantius is on his own.



The early [Alleged] Ante-Nicene Church father Lactantius wrote:

Since God was possessed of the greatest foresight for planning, and of the greatest skill for carrying out in action, before He commenced this business of the world,--inasmuch as there was in Him, and always is, the fountain of full and most complete goodness,--in order that goodness might spring as a stream from Him, and might flow forth afar, He produced a Spirit like to Himself, who might be endowed with the perfections of God the Father... Then He made another being, in whom the disposition of the divine origin did not remain. Therefore he was infected with his own envy as with poison, and passed from good to evil; and at his own will, which had been given to him by God unfettered, he acquired for himself a contrary name. From which it appears that the source of all evils is envy.

For he envied his predecessor, who through his steadfastness is acceptable and dear to God the Father. This being, who from good became evil by his own act, is called by the Greeks diabolus: we call him accuser, because he reports to God the faults to which he himself entices us. God, therefore, when He began the fabric of the world, set over the whole work that first and greatest Son, and used Him at the same time as a counselor and artificer, in planning, arranging, and accomplishing, since He is complete both in knowledge, and judgment, and power... [4] (http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan#endnote_Lacta ntius) Many things he here taught are not considered "orthodox" by today's standards. However, Lactantius was definitely orthodox during his lifetime. Amazingly, many things here correspond to LDS doctrine precisely in those areas that are "unorthodox." For example,

Many things he taught were not normal for Christians of his day either such as claiming Jesus was a created spirit. Remember, Jesus is from everlasting with the Father and the Spirit and none other. What happened was the Triune God decided the Son would pay for the sins of mankind, that's why Jesus entered into creation.

"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11).

“As regards to the Godhead, the Son and the Father are co-equal; but His being the Lord is rewarded Him by God. The Lord Jesus Christ was made Lord only after He emptied Himself. His deity derives from who He is, for His being God is His inherent nature. His being Lord, though, issues out of what He has done. He was exalted and rewarded by God to be the Lord only after He forsook His glory and maintained the perfect role of obedience. As regards Himself, He is God; as regards reward, He is Lord. His Lordship did not exist originally in the Godhead.

The passage in Philippians 2 is most difficult to explain, for it is most controversial besides being most holy. Let's remove our shoes and stand on holy ground as we review the Scripture. It seems as though at the beginning a council was held within the Godhead. God conceived a plan to create the universe. In that plan the Godhead agreed to have authority represented by the Father. But authority cannot exist alone. God must therefore find obedience in the universe. Two living beings were to be created: angels (spirits) and men (living souls). According to His foreknowledge God foresaw the rebellion of the angels and the fall of men; hence He was unable to establish His authority in angels or in the Adamic race. Consequently, within the Godhead perfect accord was reached that authority would be reached by the obedience of the Son. From this come the distinctive operations of God the Father and God the Son. One day God the Son emptied himself, and being born in the likeness of men. He became the symbol of obedience. Inasmuch as rebellion came from the created beings, so obedience must now be established in the created being. Man sinned and rebelled; therefore the authority of God must be erected on man’s obedience. This explains why the Lord came to the world and was made as one of the created men”

What matters is evidence. False teachers abound. "Everlasting" is only applied to the 3 Persons of the Godhead, nobody else, not you nor any intelligences. Jesus created Lucifer. He is not his brother.


1. "He produced a Spirit like to Himself," namely Christ. Christ, in this sense, is not the "co-equal," "eternally begotten," "same substance" "persona" of the later creeds.
Ya, but Lactantius is wrong as we have seen. Jesus created Lucifer. My God created Lucifer. Your savior is the Devil's brother. My God is bigger than your god.


2. "Then he made another being, in whom the disposition of the divine origin did not remain." God made another spirit who rebelled and who fell from his exalted status. He is the diabolus.
Jesus created Lucifer, the beautiful angel who fell from grace.


3. Christ is the "first and greatest Son." Not the "only" son.
The Bible says Jesus is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. Mormons and LDS remove verses they don't like. See Rev. 22.18,19 for consequences.


4. Lastly, since the diabolus and Christ are both spirit sons of God, they are spirit brothers.
Since Lactantius was wrong, and Jesus said nothing that was made was made without Him, which of course, includes Lucifer, then they are not brothers. Jesus is God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity. At least admit that if salvation is only possibly by worshipping the One True God of the Trinity, then you are going to Hell.

Just know you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit. In other words, God says you can still yet be saved if you come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, not as a separate being, but as the Creator, with the Father and Spirit as One Being (Who is alone "everlasting"), in which Jesus is the Creator of "all things". ALL THINGS! Now that is a Savior you can trust in!

Praise the Lord!

[Churchwork]

I am just agreeing with the early Church fathers and Scripture. My God did not forsake the Church for 18 centuries, but yours did. Or maybe Satan is telling you that or Satan is your god then. The original intent is that Jesus and the Father are One Being from "everlasting." If there are three said to have been pre-existing and there can only be one uncreated from everlasting, then logical states they are One Being.

You're being ignorant because you misrepresent repeatedly. The Personages are not the same, but they are different, yet of One substance because of One Being. Why is that so hard to understand? If Christians can understand it, why can't you if you are saved?

Since this is proven there is no premise, why do you cling onto your false premise of multiple uncreated different beings or intelligences? The Bible only ever allows for One uncreated Being which is mathematically only logical with nothing besides the One Being. To be of "one mind" is One Being when it comes to eternity past or before time.

There is so many verses on the Trinity who can count that high? Father, Son and Spirit each shown and revealed in many different instance of which never do we find one created the other or that there were others beside them before time began. Hence, we know since Jesus is the first and the last and the great I AM, and so is the Father, we know two firsts mean co-equal.

Indeed God is incomprehensible, for He is infinitely greater than you. What pride you think you can comprehend the incomprehensible Trinity. When Jesus speaks to the Father He is not speaking to Himself, for the Father is not the Son. Why do you keep making the modalist mistake? You're not listening, but hopefully this response will open your heart to Christ in Christianity.

This takes humility to let go of self and control of ideas, and just give into the obvious conclusion 3 uncreated personages that exist solely before time requires they be One uncreated Being from everlasting; none besides.

What is insanity is this, to think you can mold God into human terms of progenation and thinking there are multiple uncreated (always having existed) intillgences when you don't ask the question: where in the heck they come from? Satan inserts assumptions of multiple uncreated beings. There is proof of One uncreated Creator, not more, in His Triune nature. Praise the Lord.

Your sin is this, the pride of thinking you always existed and that your atoner is a created spirit child rather than the uncreated highest. This is why you are going to Hell. I would not wish upon my worse enemy where you are going and if it were possible that you be saved I would go to Hell in your stead, because it is a very horrible place where you are headed.

[Churchwork]

Where is it a fact that nature can't cause itself to exist?
By the preponderance of evidence of trillions of causes in nature are so overwhelming, we can be confident nature requires a cause that is outside itself. "For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, 'even' his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse" (Rom 1.20)


How does that prove that anything/everything is uncreated?
It proves not that anything is uncreated, but that the uncreated must exist which allows for One uncreated Being, no more unless proven otherwise since the Father, Son and Spirit profess to be from everlasting, the first, the Great I AM, Alpha, none besides. We must trust this.

How is time created if God is uncreated and eternal?
Let's leave that one up to God. Some things He keeps for Himself. This takes humility to accept.


What does it mean for God to be everlasting?
For God to be from everlasting only means only God is uncreated, always existing from the past and no preexisting intelligences which would be atheistic henotheism. Since the Church has never accepted such heresies, you can be confident it is false.


Where is it proven that God is co-equal with Jesus incarnate in the flesh when that most certainly wasn't agreed upon by the earliest Christians?

It was agreed to by the Church. Why would you think otherwise? Provide evidence. Scriptures were written in the first century as well which state in Phil. 2 that Jesus believed He was equal with the Father in the form of God, though not something to be grasped since He emptied Himself.

Why is it necessary to start with one being, neither more nor less?

It's a logical necessity because then God shares in nature with other intelligences in terms of always existing, but God said there is none beside Him; only He is from everlasting. You would be making gods of intelligences, idols of gods. Ex. 20.3 says "Thou shalt have no other gods beside me." You should heed His word.


How exactly is Henotheism or Atheism a necessary derivative of anything being co-eternal with God?
Atheism is in the natural realm, but similar quality as Henotheism of always existing a priori, whether it be gods or nature. Similarly, Mormonism or LDS teach the same even if there was only +1 more elements, intelligences, anything, besides God that was also from everlasting. Only the Godhead is co-eternally existing before time: only God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. Note, the Son description only came into being when Jesus entered creation, so technically there is just the 3 Persons of the Trinity before time. God has diversity in His Unity and Unity in His Diversity. Whereas in Mormonism or LDS there is diversity in intelligences, but no Unity of Being.


If we are to assume that God has always existed, then why does that exclude everything else from being co-eternal?
First of all we are not assuming God always existed, but we know He always existed because nature can't cause itself, nor can there be an eternity of the past of cause in effects in the supernatural or natural, due the exponential progression of conscience, for mankind would not still be sinning to the extent it still does. Everything else is excluded from pre-existence because God said so in His word but also because then mathematically, you must ask where these other intelligences come from.

Why assume there are a trillion or hundred trillion different prior intelligences? Who gave you that right? Joseph Smith. Maybe the cult down the street has a better number of only 100 billion intelligences, so your cult would be wrong. There is no ethical standard other than One uncreated Being. You're just worshiping gods at the end of the day which are really just idols, even self-exalting yourself always having existed.

[Churchwork]

Doug,

All 3 Persons have One uncreated life of One Being. God's Own uncreated life is the life is from everlasting and is the life of the Spirit. God is the Only uncreated. I believe Mormonism and LDS are destroyed on this point alone easily when God said He is "from everlasting." He never said you were from everlasting. He said He is "first." He never said you were first. He said He created "all things" not that He created all things after you always existed as intelligence? How silly. Some cults are so silly, but the reality is there is great deception in such silliness, for you worship a false Christ and are going to Hell.

[Churchwork]

Facts:
1) God is uncreated and alone from everlasting.
2) God reveals Himself in 3 forms or Persons personally: Father, Son and Spirit.
3) Jesus of Christianity is a better Atoner than the atoner of Mormonism or LDS because Jesus existed alone with the Father and Spirit before time rather than alongside other beings or intelligences.

[Churchwork]

Is an intelligence a being? Or are the alleged pre-existing intelligences of Mormonism and LDS just a hodgepodge of spirit dust (or whatever) out of which supernaturalistically the Father came into being buy some supernatural happening all by itself like in atheism? That sounds like the equivalent of of atheistic naturalism, but you may call it henotheistic supernaturalism (identifying the Deity with an always pre-existing supernatural universe and its phenomena, idolized).

I don't believe there was an eternity of the past or before time existing many uncreated spirit dust particles or intelligences. There was just the uncreated Creator: the Trinity of the 3 Persons of the Godhead. To accept this fact, repentantly, is the beginning of humility, salvation and eternal life, receiving what Jesus did for you on the cross.

[Churchwork]

You are just a bigot against God (and particularly against the Church and blacks in your history of Mormons and LDS) as you worship multiple uncreated intelligences alongside God by proclaiming their pre-existence, when God said only He is "from everlasting."

When you claim these intelligences always existed alongside God you are sinning against God. How detestable is this to God?

"Let us go and worship other gods-which neither nor your fathers have known, any of the gods of people around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other-you must not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity, and do not spare him or shield him. Instead, you must kill him. Your hand is to be the first against him to put him to death, and then the hands of all the people" (Deut. 13.6-10).

"If a man or woman among you...is discovered doing evil in the sight of the LORD your God and violating His covenant and has gone to worship other gods-which I have forbidden-and if you are told or hear about it, you must investigate it thoroughly. If the report turns out to be true that this detestable thing has happened...you must bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing and stone them to death. The one condemned to die is to be executed on the testimony of two or three witnesses. The witnesses' hands are to be the first in putting him to death, and after that, the hands of all the people. You must purge this evil from you. (Deut. 17.2-7).
Mormons may call Christians bigots, but who is the real bigot?

[Churchwork]

Simplify it for yourself.

1) If you cannot explain away Scripturally God alone is "from everlasting" (Ps. 41.13) before time began, then realize you are sinning by adding to God's words with the verdict of Rev. 22.18,19.

2) If you can find no verse that clearly say you pre-existed alongside God from everlasting as an intelligence or being, then realize you are sinning, self-exalting self.

3) If you can find no verses that say a person can clearly lose salvation, then realize you don't have a salvation that can never be lost, so you are sinning entering into a false salvation. "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28), "that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God" (1 Pet. 1.4,5). Faith is a gift of God. Don't add to these verses or in_sert what is not said, otherwise you are sinning.

4) If works can save you then you boast of self. "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9). We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16). If you are unwilling to accept this, then you are sinning.

Now we all know you can twist the Scriptures anyway you like by putting into them an "except when..." and claim the Bible is not the full inerrant word of God or allege that some parts are false. But how would a child read such passages? They would take the verses at their plain understanding. To understand things of God you will need to be like children and not gods.

"And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 18.2-4).

Everyone who enters this world must pass through a period of childhood. Similarly, all who enter the kingdom of heaven must go through a kind of childhood. The kingdom of heaven presents three different aspects: (1) the sphere of Christianity or Christendom, (2) the church, and (3) the millennial kingdom. What is referred to here is the second of these aspects.

Those who are not born again cannot understand what happens to someone at regeneration. The word "as" speaks of selflessness, dependence, and humility.

Verse 3 solves the question of entry, while verse 4 resolves the matter of greatness. If having been born again one can keep himself always humble as a little child, this man is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Unfortunately, many forsake this condition. Though they are but children, they act like grownups (see 1 Cor. 3.1). To "become as little children" is the one condition for entering the kingdom of heaven, and to hold on to this condition becomes the very basis for subsequent greatness.

A little child does not look at himself, nor does he possess a competitive heart (the worst that happens to a believer is to become competitive in spiritual things). Paul acknowledges himself as being the least of the apostles (1 Cor. 15.9)—and this is not determined through comparison. He would even rather be separated from Christ if necessary, for the sake of his kinsmen’s salvation (Rom. 9.3). All this reflects how selfless he is. He does not look at himself at all. He is one of the best children in the kingdom, for as he runs the race, he casts no glance at Peter or John. He simply stretches forward for the prize from on high. Humility is having no pride, not a having no ability to preach or lead a revival campaign. Only he who humbles himself as a little child has no pride at all. And the one who humbles himself shall be exalted (Luke 18.14).

How can you have an attitude like this if you think you always had pre-existed in one form or another alongside God?

[Churchwork]

Revelation from God always trumps "various Christian writers". I sent you three other verses besides Jeremiah. You didn't comment on those. Could it be because the real issue is that we base our doctrine of pre-mortal existence of spirits on those other three and you don't recognize extra-biblical scripture? So, if LDS claims are true, your arguments and interpretations don't count and are worthless to me.
Revelation alleged to be from God does not trump various Christian writers who agree with Scripture and when that revelation does not agree with writers in God's word. The only verse you sent me (Jeremiah 1.5) shows Bible commentaries at Blue Letter Bible (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jer&c=1&v=5&t=KJV#comm/5) unanimously reject your interpretation. None of those commentaries agree with anything you say. You're on an island by yourself. I find no Christians in Church history reading verses the way you do. You must be delusional or demonically possessed by the evil spirit of LDS. Either way, you are wrong and lost.

Discern the fact that revelation from the evil spirit tries to counterfeit God's revelations, so the way to test this out is to find agreement with God's word and brothers and sisters in Christ then you know it is by the Holy Spirit of Truth. Since you are unable to do so, realize you are in a fringe cult that will send you right to Hell. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is there. Whatever we loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; whatever we bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.

Just as atheism teaches a primordial existence of nature, you teach a primordial existence of beings even your self. The reason you believe in this is because you have no faith to believe in God who alone was "from everlasting" who alone brings into creation from before time "all things" (Rev. 22.13).

"I and the Father are one" being (John 10.30), "one Lord" (Deut.6.4) "from everlasting" (Ps. 41.13, 90.2, 93.2, 103.17, 106.48, Hab. 1.12; see 1 Chron. 16.36, 29.10; Neh. 9.5). You never address this fact because it is embarrassing for your cult.

The reason underlying your heresy is pride, to self-exalt yourself next to God as always having existed. It pains you too much to worship a God who existed before time, but you must exalt yourself next him. The lie from the serpent is not coming bear for you as you would have liked: "ye shall be as gods" (Gen. 3.5), for God said "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20.3).

When Christians use the term "Scripture" specifically, we are referring to God's word, so when you want to add to God's word like the Roman Church does, you are committing their sin, producing extra-biblical material as though it is God's word. Shame on you! Extra-biblical may or may not agree with God's word, so it is not the guiding principle. You must always check back with Scripture. This is something that makes you very uncomfortable which shows your heart. Rev. 22.18,19 explicitly states the judgment that is upon you. You can have revelatory writings that give further revelation, but that revelation must agree with God's word. Your conscience if in Christ would realize this is a problem for your faith.

Your thoughts and words and comments don't matter because you are a bad man who is going to Hell. What matters is God's word which you have no reverence for. How ugly!

[Churchwork]

For future reference: http://www.mormoncurtain.com/section_forums.html

Appreciate how evil Mormonism is. It says there is a Priesthood chosen before the foundations of the world, that is to say, people born into Earth are already decided without any choice in the matter to be the Priesthood. This is very much like Calvinism in which they had no choice in the matter either. Can you sense what gargantuous pride this entails? Earth then isn't the place of free will for it is already decided in the first place in a pre-existence. Crazy huh? What this does is lower morality today on Earth. Like Hitler said there was the preexisting right of the Aryan race to rule and the Jews belonged in the gas chambers. Anybody can claim anything, but it is just pride and does not check back with Scripture of God's infinite foreknowledge.

Men like to change God's infinite foreknowledge referring to their own pre-existing self, but that is nonsense. Calvinists do the same thing with foreknowledge. They change it to mean a personal knowing only. What is truly insane about this is LDS and Mormonism seem to take from every cult. They take from reincarnation, pantheism (in terms of infinite regress), polytheism or henotheism, atheism, the Roman Church's no millennial reign, popery and non-OSAS. Can you see all those elements? I can. Plus, they add books to the Bible, claiming they are quoting Jesus in these new texts eighteen centuries later. That's like Islam. They have actually altered the meaning of free-will. Free-will was already decided in a pre-existing spirit state. However, contradictions run amok, so they also teach certain other ones can lose salvation if after being saved in their Christ. Coocoo!

Mormons say "man was in the beginning with God" but God says He alone was "from everlasting." God says He alone is "first" and the "Alpha". Before Him nothing was made that was made without Him Jesus. LDS says they have "heavenly parents." Christians say we have only One Parent, God Almighty. Mormons ask, because they don't know, "where do we come from?" since they believe in infinite regress. Christians reply, we come from God, obviously. He created us whence we did not exist before, in any shape or form. Calvinists ask the same sorta question. They ask why do some choose Christ? To reply, the Christian says, because we are made in God's image with free-choice. Similarly, LDS don't like the answer either, so they respond by saying it was decided long before Earth. That is a very Calvinistic thing to say.

At the end of the day the primary evidence is God's word, and the various many verses that speak of God's infinite foreknowledge is the revelation from God and testified by the Holy Spirit. To change those verses into something else such as preexisting beings is being dishonest with yourself and not coming to the original intent of the text. This is what these fishermen were thinking under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Why are we here? Because God made us in His image. Why? Because He wants a relationship with us. Why is that so hard to understand? Out of His glory this is what God wants. If you don't like it, it only shows your independency to God and your unsalvation. It shows you are void of humility! You don't have to make up a fantasy pre-existence, nor claim you always existed alongside God as intelligence or even God came about from preexisting intelligence(s).

May you one day accept the uncreated Creator: Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. God revealed where Christians are going. Some will receive the reward in the millennial reign of Christ and all believers will be in the New City after the 1000 years.

Apostles are for today, but not just twelve, for there are many Apostles and Prophets. Apostles work regionally to appoint Elders of a locality. Prophets are local workers, not regional workers.

[Churchwork]

The oddest rationalization of all is to think you were a spirit being who needed to come to earth to cleanse yourself or mature. If that were true then the angels, sons of God, should become men. Training to run a world in an eternal sexual orgy is the motivation, but that pride is inescapably evil. You will have no such offspring anymore than will Muslims have 72 virgins in heaven. Pride wants to run a world and rule over others, and lust wants sexual infinity.

Your independency in ideationalism, separated from God, will send you to Hell. You can be sure of it.

[Churchwork]

Re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svi8cvyv6SE (Amazing coincidence: same or similar names, of 3 pairs, and place names)


Nowhere in that video does it say: 12 Apostles have the same name as the original 12 Apostles
Doug, you sure know how to turn people off from your faith. Would Jesus act the way you are doing? You're not going to become a god with your carrying on like this in your petty obsession to avoid the fact you are polytheist going to Hell.

Who is the one who brought this issue up first? I did. I watched the video and then told you about it. You assumed then the "same name" issue (used for short) meant each side having the "same names," rather than each side having the same number of pairs with the "same name" (immediately I corrected you but you wouldn't listen). I told you many times this is not the case. You should have watched the video when I told you to so you could have seen how you were misunderstanding without carrying on like a drunken sailor. How many times did I tell you to watch the video so you could see how you were misreading? In any case, you are going to Hell Doug because you are Polytheist. You don't seem to mind. Your idolatry of gods is morally bankrupt, calling the Father God, the Son God and the Spirit God but different beings: all one and the same God but 3 different beings!? God is no longer a being then. You have totally redefine what God is. But God is not gods. There is only one way to read this: God is One Being in 3 Persons. You're not going to be a god Doug. You're going to Hell.

Just think how you misread is the same way you misread the Bible, missing the original intent. It's because your spirit is dead to God, you read with selfish intent. That's the best way I know how to explain it-what the Holy Spirit has put on my heart to say. All you can do is try diversionary tactics, focusing on some petty thing, belaboring something that was your own fault and blaming someone else for it. You redefine all the terms in the Bible and make Christianity a laughing stock. What arrogance it takes to change foundational Christianity into Mormonism. Who can have such arrogance and pride to do this but someone bound for Hell? I think deep down inside Doug you know you are going to Hell and you prefer it. It gives you immense pleasure. You're acting like you outwitted God.

God alone is "from everlasting" (Ps. 41.13). "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" (Is. 43.10, 44.8). It is God "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see" (1 Tim. 6.16). "O Lord, are you not from everlasting?" (Hab. 1.12) "For by him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers" (Col. 1.16). No infinite regress! That's atheistic. Changing to gods in infinite regress doesn't make it any better. You're covering up your atheism with polytheism, faithless towards God alone "from everlasting."

[Churchwork]

Why Doug Yancy is Going to Hell

Since God is alone from everlasting, then how can there be others from everlasting also?
God alone is "from everlasting" (Ps. 41.13). It is God "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see" (1 Tim. 6.16) and "he alone is God" (1 Tim. 1.17). Aren't you violating God's word and worshiping a false god?

The Bible says there can't be an infinite regress or future of gods, so why violate God's word?
"I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" (Is. 43.10, 44.8). You would be living a lie if you thought God the Father use to be a man and he had a God who use to be a man, and he had a God who use to be a man, so on and so on.

How can there be an infinite regress of prior intelligences and gods, if all invisible things were created by God?
"O Lord, are you not from everlasting?" (Hab. 1.12) "For by him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers" (Col. 1.16). If you can't answer this, but still avoid it, then aren't you showing you worship a false Christ? Therefore, you are going to Hell.

There is something very wrong with changing the orthodox meaning of the Christian God.
To change or redefine God into gods or 3 beings which is clearly polytheism (henotheism, tritheism) and no longer monotheism, then call yourself Christian flies in the face of "the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch" (Acts 11.26). Like "Agrippa said to Paul, 'You almost persuade me to become a Christian'" (Acts 26.28), you have the same attitude. God is not a personal Being to you, but a complex of beings which lose the personableness of the Trinity in His Three Persons. Thank you Lord for this understanding, revelation and discernment!

How can there be two God's?
How can there be two Apha's, two I AM's, two "first" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4AN2hHk7ws&feature=rec-HM-r2) from everlasting without being the Trinity? You have never been able to solve this problem of your faith. It's morally bankrupt, logically incoherent and hostile to monotheism. Just like atheists are living a lie of infinite regress you are too, to reject the Almighty where there is no God before Him, beside Him or after Him. Because you reject God of the Bible, you are going to Hell. Why not have the consideration to explain how to resolve this and talk personally with someone who is trying to understand and help you?

Please don't be offended by what God wants you to see.
He loves you and doesn't want you to perish, but you must accept Him as He is and not a counterfeit, facsimile you create in your own selfish image, because of your unwillingness to come to the God who keeps. You're a victim of your own "selfish desire to be in control (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3283)," not letting Jesus be the Lord of your life. No man can save himself or keep himself saved. It's impossible. How arrogant man is in thinking he can worship God his own way! "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8). Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29). "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9).

[Churchwork]

The Mormon Church is not the Church and you are not a Christian because you worship a false Christ. There are so many things wrong with your church and Joseph Smith, but I want you to focus on the key ones which eternally separate you from the body of Christ and Jesus Himself. Know that you are a in a cult and the reason you avoid and are unwilling to address these points time and again is because that is the only way you can remain a member of the Mormon Church. This is the nature of being in a cult shutting your mind down to the only way to be saved and who Jesus really is.

Revelation doesn't contradict itself (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3320-God-is-Simplying-Things-for-the-LDS-So-You-Will-Accept-Him&p=6611#post6611) with the final word of God (66 books of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation). Shutting your mind down is not a sign of repentance. There are consequences:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Rev. 22.18,19).

Those who believed in Christ "shall never perish" (John 10.28), but Mormons/LDS say they can perish.

"All things were made by him [Jesus]; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1.3), but Mormons/LDS say Jesus didn't create everything.

The Triune God "who alone" (1 Tim. 6.16) is "from everlasting" (Neh. 9.5), but Mormons/LDS say He is not.

Joseph Smith was a great liar as his father of lies. His purpose was to take as many people to Hell with him as as he could, "until you...are able to dwell in everlasting burnings (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6568#post6568)" (LDS President Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.305-6, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM).

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43.10).

Salvation is not by works. Works flow from true regeneration, but works done without true regeneration can't save you Doug. I am glad to see you are not into polygamy anymore, but you still fail to address a cult that starts out polygamous is no Church at all. We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16). "He said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee" (Luke 7.50, 18.42). "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8). Doug, you still by faith worship a false Christ and so shall you remain unsaved and bound for Hell under the leadership of the Mormon and LDS who will join you shortly in the Lake of Fire along with Satan, the fallen angels, demons and every unsaved soul that ever lived. No matter how good you thing you are in your "good self" the good self can't save you. It is still independent to God Almighty and your Creator Jesus Christ. Good works are way to self-exalt yourself in a false Christ while still rejecting Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith had the "spirit of the world" (1 Cor. 2.12) which is the spirit of antichrist, presenting another Christ, in claiming there was gods before God and after God. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4.1). Joseph Smith was just another false prophet like Muhammad, Charles T. Russell, Ellen G. White, and Mary Baker Eddy--all easily disproven by God's loving Word. Amen.

Seems pretty clear to me God never had a God father and we will not become gods.

Therefore, Mormonism is a lie. Accept it. Take your medicine, leave the cult and give your life to the true Jesus who created all things. Otherwise, you will spend eternity in Hell Doug.

This is the choice God has presented you. He proved Himself and you still reject Him. You leave God no choice but to put you in Hell Doug for all eternity. How truly sad for you. It makes me sad this is how you are going to depart the world. You're an old man now with not much time left. What a selfish, self-centered, egotistical, and self-exalted man you are who cares not for the plain words of Scripture, for the Bible only agrees with you insofar as you agree with it. You want to be a God one day like God: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High" (Is. 14.14). Get ready for Hell, it won't be long now.

What planet is your God on now and when was that when he was a man before? The universe is only 13.7 billion years old, so how do you figure infinite regress out of that? And Jesus didn't create Lucifer but is his brother? What Satanic teachings! Surely, you should not be surprised why Christians reject you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

God said come to Him with an honest heart, He will receive you in Christ. But you don't come to Him with an honest heart.

You really don't need to know anything else other than there is no blank spot in Christianity for 18 centuries. That's the biggest give away of all. That's Satan's accusation. Of course the Church has faltered through the centuries, but never so far as to need Mormonism and LDS. How absurd! The Christ you present is diabolically opposite to the Jesus of the Bible. If you were honest you could see that as the Holy Spirit has given you more than sufficient grace to be able to do so.

Check out this youtube video -- a dying man's last breath spoke of the Jesus of the Bible, not the Jesus of Mormonism.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPhnKu7-b_U&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

[Churchwork]

Sami writes to me,

"Doug Yancey became threatening asking why I won't give him my name or where I live. He said "what am I afraid of," and when I received another e-mail from him this morning I Googled his name which led me here (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?1281-Lying-Deceptive-Selfish-LDS-Mormon-Doug-Yancey).

I have instructed him where to find the historical facts of Smith which he refuses to acknowledge and he claims he has a litany of study resources at hand. I'm sure only what is authorized by the LDS.

I said he has been indoctrinated and he replied he had not. I pointed out that was the same as an alcoholic saying "I'm not an alcoholic" which only served to make him more angry.

I'm curious to see what your other dealings have been with him,that is a scary bunch!

I ask in the name of our glorious LORD and savior, Jesus Christ.

Thank you

[Churchwork]

"Doug Yancey became threatening asking why I won't give him my name or where I live. He said "what am I afraid of," and when I received another e-mail from him this morning I Googled his name which led me here (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?1281-Lying-Deceptive-Selfish-LDS-Mormon-Doug-Yancey).

I have instructed him where to find the historical facts of Smith which he refuses to acknowledge and he claims he has a litany of study resources at hand. I'm sure only what is authorized by the LDS.

I said he has been indoctrinated and he replied he had not. I pointed out that was the same as an alcoholic saying "I'm not an alcoholic" which only served to make him more angry.

I'm curious to see what your other dealings have been with him,that is a scary bunch!

I ask in the name of our glorious LORD and savior, Jesus Christ.

Thank you
Sami, the posts in this thread above "Why Doug Yancey is Going to Hell (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?1281-Lying-Deceptive-Selfish-LDS-Mormon-Doug-Yancey&p=6568#post6568)" and "It's Not Too Late for you Doug (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?1281-Lying-Deceptive-Selfish-LDS-Mormon-Doug-Yancey&p=6701#post6701)" sum up the problem. Basically, he avoids the central issue come hell or high water. When you discuss these specific points which is how Christians know Mormons and LDS are not Christians, he refuses to reply or says something vague in response. When discussing other issues he will send you a link very impersonally as thought that somehow solves the problem, like you said, his resources are only LDS sponsored. He doesn't know how to think outside the box.

Doug Yancey only believes the Bible insofar as it agrees with him and his cult (it is not inerrant to him). Walter Martin often stated this phrase about Mormons and LDS. This is classic cultic behavior. The Bible was not lost on us for 18 centuries. A loving God provides His word, His word never changes and does not take time off or get lost in the catacombs of history until Joseph Smith arrived.

Do not think Joseph Smith received revelation or vision from an angel. He simply made it up. There were 200 books, part of the culture of his day, that were already teaching the things Joseph Smith formed into a religion. Joseph Smith is a liar of liars, hardly new revelation, for revelation is new and doesn't disagree with previous revelation of Scripture.

Oh pride of man who loves his self-exalted special ideas and doublespeak which contradicts itself and God's word! Crazy is a crazy does.

There are 66 books of God's word. Period! 6 is the number of Satan and 6 is the number of man because man loves Satan's ways. The Bible is the redemptive design separating and breaking apart that union of Satan and man.

[Churchwork]

Aside from the Biblical contradiction the fact that I must become one of them scares me. CULT!!

He has lied so many times I can't read anything else from him but I'm in total agreement with you that the Lord desires Yancey and all to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I'm in total agreement with you that the Lord desires Yancey and all to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Continue to pray for him, but I won't be casting anymore "pearls" his way.

The maps of early NY do not line up with any ever in existence as well as the fact that every civilization including ones from thousands of years ago that have been destroyed by volcanoes, earthquakes and even sunk to the bottom of the ocean render some traces. Whether it be structures, relics or wares but no trace of any of this culture can be found.

May the Lord Jesus Christ continue to bless you but please know when to put it all in His hands.

I'll see you in Heaven!

Sincerely,Your sister in Christ
SJ

p.s. They aren't proud of it. Smith was a mason and they have these white shorts and a tank with the masonic images emrboidered on them. They believe that while you are wearing them nothing can hurt you.

I'm with you on that. Kick the dust under your feet a you leave a person or place that don't hath an ear to hear. Don't give what is holy to them once you have already done so and they remain obstinate. It seems they have made their choice for they don't care about reality and evidence, and that is that.

The Bible says there are some people we shouldn't pray for, for they are so far gone. I think we might have found one of those people in Doug Yancey.

That's funny about the magic shorts. It's a sex cult always.