144,000 & 12 Tribes of Israel

[Enoch]

The 144,000 & the twelve tribes of Israel

The 144000 is an analogy, it is not a list of the tribes of Israel. Notice that, Even though Reuben is the firstborn instead of Judah, it begins with the tribe of Judah. Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah, and was the firstborn from the dead,He is put first. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Col 1:15, 18. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Josephs is also listed along with his two sons. The Bible tells us Joseph gave his birthright (which should have been Reubens’ 1Chr 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.) to his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Even though his two sons had the same land they are often spoken of as two separate tribes. Jacob also gave Ephraim the blessing and not Manasseh, who is the eldest, but we see Manasseh here and not his brother contrary to tradition.

Priests never inherited any land; Jos 14:3. For Moses had given the inheritance of two tribes and an half tribe on the other side Jordan: but unto the Levites he gave none inheritance among them.The tribe of Levi is included here when they were never included in inheritance before; the reason is because we are a holy priesthood and a royal priesthood 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1Pe 2:9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:


This analogy does not have the tribe of Dan, probably because of the Idolatry that tribe was guilty of.
In conclusion, If God was actually giving us a list of the tribes of Israel; He would have just put them in order of birth and inheritance, and wouldn’t add or leave a Patriarch out.

It then says that each one of them was sealed. A seal is made from
wax that has been imprinted on with a signet ring. Today we use our
name as our seal. Since it is a unique way of writing our name, it is a
personal seal that we call our signature. We will only put our
signature on thing that we agree to or approve of. This is saying that
God has put his approval on them. 2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 4:30 and grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

This is how the Tribes are placed in Revelation 7:5-8
I will put the tribes’ actual placement number to where it should be it the order of their birth

The first name is Judah. #4.

The second name is Reuben. #1.

The third one is called Gad. #8.

The fourth name is Asher. #9.

The fifth name is Naphtali. #10.

The sixth name is Manasseh.

The seventh name is Simeon. #2.

The eighth name is Levi. #3.

The ninth name is Issachar. #6.

The tenth named is Zebulon. #5.

The eleventh is Joseph. #11.

Remember, there is no actually no tribe of Joseph, but there is here. He gave his inheritance to his sons. He gave his inheritance to his sons.

The twelfth is, Benjamin. #12

This is the true Israel of God Gal 6:16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (the Church and saved Israel). When the time of the gentiles is complete, God will then move His attention to Israel once again and Israel will be completed and saved. Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. 11:15-32 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? :16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bears not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou stands by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it; this tells us that it isn’t an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else. The number 12 represents 12 tribes of Israel from the Old Testament and 12 Apostles of the New Testament. The number 1000 represents from Hebrew, the sense of yoking or taming an ox or joining together, maturity and full stature.
Let’s do some math.
12 x 12 = 144. Then it multiplies 12 by 1000 in which we see above the meaning of these numbers, Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace. So we see the 144000 as the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament. The completed Israel of God.

This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

[Churchwork]

The Two Different Groups of 144,000 - (1) First Batch of Remnant Israel and (2) First Batch of Christian Virgins Firstfruits

The 144,000 is not some analogy in Rev. 7.1-8, but actually pointing to the 12 tribes of Israel. And the 144,000 in Rev. 14.1-5 are not Israel, but pointing to the first fruit virgin Christians. This is proven by comparing the details of the two passages.

The reason for the ordering of the tribes of Israel is according to the most spiritual tribes. Hence, Judah goes first.

Ephraim and Mannesah were not given the same land. The map I have of the 12 tribes of Israel place Ephraim north of Benjamin. Mannaseh is broken into West Mannessah, west of the Jordan River and East Mannesah, east of the Jordan River.

It is Judah that receives the firstborn inheritance, not Ephraim and Manasseh. Judah's land is below Benjamin. Northern Israel lost its inheritance, and thus was overrun before Southern Israel was taken over.

In 7.4-8 no name of Dan is mentioned. According to Ezekiel chapters 40-48 which predict the situation concerning the future kingdom, Dan will be located at the north end (48.1). Why then is Dan not mentioned here? This does not mean that Dan as a tribe has disappeared; it may suggest, though, the close relationship Dan has with the serpent. We will recall that as Jacob prophesied over his sons he mentioned Dan (Gen. 49.16-18). Verse 16 of that passage told of Dan’s existence and verse 17 of his conduct; but in verse 18 Jacob suddenly bursts out in prayer. He had not done this when prophesying concerning his other sons. Probably Dan’s behavior in the future would be highly dangerous. During the Great Tribulation the tribe of Dan may join itself to Antichrist in some special relationship.

Accepting the fact there is an exact ordering to the tribes listed in Rev. 7.4-8, by careful examination and comparison we may know why the tribes of Israel are ordered in this fashion for future purposes of the Tribulation and their positioning in the millennial kingdom. God wants to give spiritual meaning, and not legalize the physical chronology of the physical tribes of Israel. That would seem reasonable. Thus, Dan is not even listed and Judah goes first since Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Southern Israel, the more spiritual nation.


7.2 The Lord is here called an “angel”—which is an Old Testament denomination—thus hinting that He will soon return to His Old Testament ground.

7.3 “The servants of our God”—God begins to recognize the Jews, inasmuch as He is going to return to the position He held in the Old Testament. (During the church age there is no distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles.) Since this book centers on the throne of God the people are called servants, for they are placed in a position of responsibility rather than in that of children.

“Another angel . . . having the seal of the living God”—This seal must be put in the hand of God’s most trusted one. Besides God the Father the Lord Jesus is the first and foremost Person. As Pharaoh placed his seal in the hand of Joseph, so God put His seal in the hand of the Lord Jesus.

These people who are sealed with the seal of the living God are:

a) the Jews who will rule with Christ on earth in the future (though not as kings). Twelve thousand is the resultant number of the multiples of 12, it being 12Х10 to the power 3.

This number represents the eternal perfection of God’s government.

b) the suffering Jews who make up part of the little brother mentioned in Matthew 25.

c) the Jewish counterpart of those who endure to the end as spoken of in Matthew 24.

d) the Jews upon whom the Holy Spirit will be poured out in the coming day (the former rain has already been poured out—Acts 2, but the latter rain is yet to be poured forth—Joel 2.28-29). The blood and fire mentioned in Joel 2.30 coincide with the phenomena of the first trumpet; the pillars of smoke agree with the fifth trumpet. Thus the second outpouring of the Holy Spirit will occur between the sixth seal and the fifth trumpet.

And e) those Jews who receive the New Covenant when the Lord Jesus shall establish His New Covenant with Israel on earth (Jer. 31.31-34).

God has two classes of people as His own possession: the earthly Jewish people, and the spiritual church. This section speaks of the earthly Jewish people, among whom a number will be kept by God; but the next section (7.9-17) alludes to the situation in heaven after the church is raptured.

According to strict Biblical presentation, the Great Tribulation lasts only three years and a half, the rest is either tribulation or trial. (Possibly the fifth trumpet is the beginning of the Great Tribulation.)

7.4-8 Who are these people? More reasons are as follows they cannot be the church.

The Seventh Day Adventists consider themselves this people because they keep the law and hence they are the true Jews. But there are ten reasons to prove that the people in this passage are the Jews according to the flesh.

(a) If "the children of Israel" spoken of in 2.14 is to be explained literally, then "the children of Israel" found in 7.4 must also be literally interpreted.

(b) Since "the tribe of Judah" mentioned in 5.5 is literal, so must "the tribe of Judah" mentioned in 7.5 be literal.

(c) The names of the twelve tribes belong only to the children of Israel; who can therefore say which Christian denomination comes under the name of which tribe of Israel?

(d) Israel has twelve tribes, but the church is one. How can the church be divided into twelve tribes?

(e) 7.9 speaks of "every nation", so "Israel" spoken of in 7.4 must be a nation.

(f) The great multitude told of in 7.9 is numberless, while those mentioned in 7.3-4 who receive the seal on their foreheads are numbered as 144,000. How can anyone restrict the saved ones of the church to a group numbering only 144,000? Furthermore, this number of 144,000 is made up of 12 twelve thousands. It would thus be unreasonable not to interpret literally.

(g) "The kings" spoken of in 6.15 are taken literally; how then can "Israel" found in 7.4 not be reckoned as a nation?

(h) Because John did not know where this great multitude came from, he said to one of the elders, "Thou knowest" (7.13,14). Yet he did not ask about those told of in 7.4-8, since evidently he had already known who they were.

(i) In Joel 2.2-27 we read that God only tells Israel how to escape the locusts, and in Revelation 9.3,4 we read that only those whom God has sealed escape the hurt of the locusts. It is thus proven beyond doubt that the sealed are the Jews.

(j) The sheep mentioned in Matthew 25 treat well the little brother ("one of these my brethren, even these least"—v.40). (This little brother points to the Jews or those Christians who yet remain on earth.) This little brother—Israel—will become the test for the nations in the future.

Rev. 14.1 Is Mount Zion in heaven or on earth? It is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one, because (1) the Mount Zion on earth is at that time in the hands of the Gentiles (11.2); (2) it is clearly stated in 14.4 that “these were purchased from among men”, thus implying that they no longer stand on the earthly Mount Zion during that moment (3) by joining the last two clauses of 14.4 with Exodus 23.19 we learn that the first fruits are not left in the field since as soon as they are ripened they are to be brought to the house of God (see also Ex. 34.26), and since the 144,000 are the first fruits they cannot be left in the field-which speaks of the world (Matt. 13.38)-but are placed instead on the Mount Zion in heaven which is the New Jerusalem; (4) 14.3 says “they sing . . . before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the el-ders”-thus all these are in heaven and not on the earth; (5) the people referred to in 14.1-5 are the first fruits while those alluded to in 14.14-16 are the harvest, so if the harvesting is unto the air, can the first fruits be gathered elsewhere except to heaven? and (6) there is, moreover, no reason to suggest it as being the Mount Zion on earth since the Lord Jesus will come to the earth only by the time of chapter 19.

Who are the 144,000? The 144,000 cited in Revelation 7.4 and 144,000 spoken of here in 14.1 are two different classes of people, contrasted as follows:

(1) The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.

(2) The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.

(3) The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father).

(4) Throughout the entire book of Revelation the Lord calls God as Father each time. And He always says it in connection with the church (1.6, 2.27, 3.5, 3.21). The Lord never uses it in connection with Israel.

(5) The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.

(6) The song they sing is described in 14.3 as a new song, whereas the song the people mentioned in 7.4 sing is but an old song.

(7) The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.)

(8) The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

14.1 The group of 144,000 here is a special class of people in the church; they are not all the people of the church. And the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:

(1) Since the 144,000 figure in 7.4 is taken literally, the number here should also be reckoned as literal.

(2) This group being the first fruits (14.4), it cannot be said that the entire church makes up the first fruits.

(3) There is no such fact that the people in the entire church keep their virginity.

(4) Prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion.

(5) 14.5 tells of the exceptional features of these people, concerning which it cannot be said that all the born-again ones possess such characteristics.

Consequently, the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion are the best of the overcomers of the church; that is to say, this group of 144,000 is representative of the totality of the overcomers.

14.2 “A voice from heaven”-This must be the voice of the 144,000. Their voice is as pleasant as the voice of harps, as awesome as the voice of thunders, and as majestic as the voice of many waters.

14.3 A new song which they alone can sing. All Christians are purchased Out of the earth, but these are brought home first.

14.4 Twice we find the words “these are”, thus showing that the verse describes and explains who the 144,000 are:

(1) “These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins”-We may not spiritualize the word “women” into “idols”, for the Bible does not support such an interpretation. Neither can we consider “women” as representing evil doctrines. Instead, “women” in the Bible is frequently translated “wives”; for example, the Greek word used for “wives” in Acts 21.5 is the same as used for “women” here in 14.4. The Scriptures not only mention this group of 144,000 as being undefiled with women but they also emphasize that they are virgins. This thus indicates that this portion of Scripture is not speaking of purity but of virginity. With this conclusion Matthew 19.10-12 agrees perfectly. Judging by 14.1 here, those whom God has given such a gift amount to only 144,000 (cf. Luke 20.35, 1 Cor. 7.7). At the time of Antichrist there will be one particular error: he will forbid marrying (1 Tim. 4.1-3). The book of Daniel hints at this also by saying that the future Antichrist will not be married (“Neither shall he regard . . . the desire of women”, 11.37). It is absolutely impossible that there will be only 144,000 Christians who neither worship idols nor follow evil doctrines. Since 14.4 is an explanation, it must mean simply what it clearly says and therefore needs no interpretation.

(2) “These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth”-This verse does not speak of the past, it instead points to the present and the future. They are closest to the Lord, serving Him as His bodyguard.

(3) “These were purchased from among men, to be the first-fruits unto God and unto the Lamb”-They are men, yet they are purchased from among men. In Leviticus we are told that there are three different stages in reaping: the first fruits (23.17), the harvest (23.22), and the gleaning (23.22). The farmer reaps when the wheat is ripened. He gathers into the garner what he cuts: he does not leave the wheat in the field. Thus, the time of rapture is in a sense decided by men and not by God. The reaping comes after ripening. The first fruits are Christians who mature first, hence are taken first.

14.5 The words of their mouths reveal what is in their hearts. These are the same descriptions concerning our Lord, but they are now applied also to the 144,000.

It should be pointed out, in conclusion, that this portion of Scripture does not exclude women from among the 144,000. It must be remembered that the Bible usually numbers only the men. For example, although a great number of women came out of Egypt and ate manna in the wilderness, God only counted the men but not the women. Moreover, though Dinah was Jacob’s daughter, the nation of Israel had only twelve tribes. Yet neither does this portion of the Bible mean that there are only this number of people among the first group raptured. It simply demon-strates that there will be people such as these in the first group.

The "Israel of God" spoken in Gal. 6.16 is the Church, not the nation of Israel since Israel forsook the new covenant, and will not receive it until Christ steps down on the mount of olives. Even so, each person within Israel must believe individually to be saved, even though Israel will be the center of all nations in the millennium. Israel of God is another way of saying the true Jew is the Christian. It doesn't comprise the Church and Israel. It is just the Church. The saving of Israel in the future is to be the center of all nations, not individual salvation.

John saw the 144,000 as well as heard them. Why does he hear them as well as see them? It is because they will be lost in the wilderness for 42 months. Remember, they needed to flea so he can hear their suffering in order to escape Satan and the Antichrist. They are protected, they are sealed. They are the remnant of Israel that shall enter into the Messianic Kingdom which overcomer believers will reign over the nations which is called the millennial kingdom. Do you hear people suffer or do you see their suffering? What you hear has a much greater impact than mere sight.

We should not spiritualize by the flesh that which is literal. Since there are 12 tribes, this applies to Rev. 7.1-8. Since there are 12 apostles, there would be the calculation of 12 seen again in the firstfruits virgins of believers in Rev. 14.1-5. 12 is eternal perfection. The 144,000 Christians in Rev. 14 are the firstfruits of the spiritual overcomer believers. In the future there is no procreation for those who have resurrected bodies, and the 144,000 have already attained such spiritual status for they remain virgins. The number 1000 is a literal too, otherwise the year-day theory would mean the millennial kingdom would be 365,000 years. God will not take that long to conquer sin. We know this too by the fact that there has been an exponential progression in place of an improved conscience since 6000 years ago. Sinless perfection will be attained long before 365,000 years is up.

Revelation was written in Greek, not Hebrew, so the word "chilias" for 1000 means literally 1000 years or a literal number of 1000. Therefore though there will be more than 144,000 Jews brought into the kingdom, what God is saying is that there will be at least these 144,000 souls which he will preserve by sealing them to be the center of all nations. Just as there will be more than 144,000 spiritual Christians, the first 144,000 are duly noted and virgin firstfruits in particular.

Consider these two different groups of 144,000 the first bunch if Israelites and virgin spiritual Christians.

Since Israel will be yoked as the center of all nations, there is nothing wrong with you saying that 1000 means to be yoked, but do know the primary meaning of the 144,000, for they are the first bunch. The church won't exist in the millennium for the dispensation of the church age will have passed after the Great Tribulation.

Since any person can be saved from any nation, including Israel, naturally from verse 9 on of the raptured saved would include the saved within Israel, though not all of Israel. Israel is not raptured "before the throne" but are transferred livingly into the millennial kingdom.

[Enoch]

The sections are split into parts.
The revelation Chap. 1
The Letters to the Churches in chap.' 2-3
The throne room in chaps.' 4,5
The sections are split into parts.
The revelation Chap. 1
The Letters to the Churches in chap.' 2-3
The throne room in chaps.' 4,5
The Horsemen Chapt; 6:1-8
Chapt;6: 8-17 tells about the time during the Anti-christ reign until the Rapture.
The trumpets; Chapt; 7-11 :
Then a whole new view or "sign" starts in chap. 12-14
Then another view or "sign" starts in chap. 15-16
Then the Judgment of the Harlot in chap. 17-19
Then the Millennium or the 1000 year reign of our Lord and the rebellion in chap. 20
Then Eternity in chap. 21-22
What do you mean by "the most spiritual tribes"?
I would think that the tribe of Levi would be something like the second most spiritual tribe at least.


You said, “Ephraim and Mannesah were not given the same land. The map I have of the 12 tribes of Israel place Ephraim north of Benjamin. Mannesah is broken into West Mannesah, west of the Jordan River and East Mannesah, east of the Jordan River."
Here is the proof of my statement.
Jos 17:14 And the children of Joseph spake unto Joshua, saying, Why hast thou given me but one lot and one portion to inherit, seeing I am a great people, forasmuch as the LORD hath blessed me hitherto?
Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches. (Ref. Lev 23:40,42And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days. :41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. :42 ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
Note: This is portraying the feast of booths which confirms the rapture at this time. The Feast of Trumpets is represented a time after the Rapture


You said,"(b) Since "the tribe of Judah" mentioned in 5.5 is literal, so must "the tribe of Judah" mentioned in 7.5 be literal."
I don't think this reasoning is so. Why "must the tribe of Judah" mentioned in 7.5 be literal." if Jesus calls Himself the tribe of Judah as mentioned in 5.5

You said,"(c) The names of the twelve tribes belong only to the children of Israel; who can therefore say which Christian denomination comes under the name of which tribe of Israel?
(d) Israel has twelve tribes, but the church is one. How can the church be divided into twelve tribes?"
Again, I think the reasoning here is bad, sorry
That is like saying how can something that is unified be divided?
The number #12 fits a pattern of entirety.

You said, "7.9 speaks of "every nation", so "Israel" spoken of in 7.4 must be a nation. "
Why?

You said, “(g) "The kings" spoken of in 6.15 are taken literally; how then can Israel" found in 7.4 not be reckoned as a nation?
Think of the term “Israel of God”
These Kinks are the ones in Luke 23:30
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great ones, and the rich ones, and the commanders, and the powerful ones, and every slave, and every freeman hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains.
Rev 6:16 And "they said to the mountains" and to the rocks, "Fall on us," and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, (ref. Hos. 10:8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us.Luke 23:30Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

You said, “(h) Because John did not know where this great multitude came from, he said to one of the elders, "Thou knowest" (7.13,14). Yet he did not ask about those told of in 7.4-8, since evidently he had already known who they were.”
Rev 7:9 After these things…….
What things? Rev 7:3 do not harm the earth, or the sea, or the trees, until we seal the slaves of our God on their foreheads.
Then :9…I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them

You said, ”Rev. 14.1 Is Mount Zion in heaven or on earth? It is the heavenly Jerusalem,
The heavenly Jerusalem is not yet come out of heaven from God (see Rev. 21:10).
MountZion (Hebrew: הרצִיּוֹן transliteration: Har Tziyyon = "Height") is an archaic term that originally referred to a specific mountain near Jerusalem. The term became a metaphor, allegory, allusion to the entire city of Jerusalem and the Land of Israel; it is often shortened to simply "Zion."
Rev 14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on MountZion! And with Him were a hundred and forty four thousands, with the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads.
G2476 ἵστημι =histēmi (his'-tay-mee) A prolonged form of a primary word στάωstaō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.
G1909 ἐπί = epi (ep-ee') A primary preposition properly meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], that is, over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.;
It can be read as, “And I saw, and behold, the Lamb established by being a covering over Jerusalem and the Land of Israel! And with Him were The Israel of God, having been given the Holy Spirit. (Gal 6:16, Eph 1:13,14)
I see the term “MountZion” as Jerusalem and the Land of Israel because in Chapt. 17:9 the seven heads which are seven mountains, on which the woman sits is Jerusalem after the rapture. Chapt. 14:1 is right before the Rapture, therefore HE calls the place where the 144000 are MountZion.
He is the Passover (Pesach or Pesah (http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/pessach.htm)) for Israel.

You said, it is clearly stated in 14.4 that “these were purchased from among men”, thus implying that they no longer stand on the earthly MountZion during that moment.
Thisbeing “purchased from among men” just means that they were also bought with the Blood of Christ as we were.
Being Firstfruits means that they or we will be raised first according to the order of resurrection from the dead. See Rev 20:5,6

You said, “14.3 says “they sing . . . before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the el-ders”-thus all these are in heaven and not on the earth.
I would say that in V7:9,10 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
This could be a start of a “new song”

You said, ”the people referred to in 14.1-5 are the first fruits while those alluded to in 14.14-16 are the harvest, so if the harvesting is unto the air, can the first fruits be gathered elsewhere except to heaven?
14.14-16 is after the rapture so therefore they aren’t firstfruits.
Notice: v.14:6,7 that an angel having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth and not a man. God uses people not angels to preach, but here an angel proclaims it because there is no redeemed to preach it because they were all raptured.

You said, “there is, moreover, no reason to suggest it as being the MountZion on earth since the Lord Jesus will come to the earth only by the time of chapter 19.
You forget that in Chapt. 15 starts a new sign or vision. Reread my first statement in this reply.
(1) The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.

(2) The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7:2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14:1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.
A seal is a seal, the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

(3) The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father).
Bad deduction, sorry L. They had the Lambs Fathers Name on them, not their Fathers name. Therefore they could still be servants

(4) Throughout the entire book of Revelation the Lord calls God as Father each time. And He always says it in connection with the church (1.6, 2.27, 3.5, and 3.21). The Lord never uses it in connection with Israel.
That means the Angel in V7:2 isn’t Jesus but a regular angel they don’t call God their Father.

(5) The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.
See last reply to #4

(6) The song they sing is described in 14.3 as a new song, whereas the song the people mentioned in 7.4 sing is but an old song.
There is no song in V7:4 accept the one in V7:10 which can be a new song.

(7) The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.)
The term “for they are virgins” means that they did not play the harlot as Israel did in the past by following other gods.

(8) The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.
There is no article but the word “Him” is Personal, possession, singular, neuter (pp Gen Sg n) so it could read, “lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with it a hundred forty and four thousand….
So the 144000 are with Mt.Zion and are possessed by Mt.Zion.

You said, “14.1 The group of 144,000 here is a special class of people in the church; they are not all the people of the church. And the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:”
Since I rebutted the last set of reasons you stated, I can not accept the following after this because of redundancy, accept for the ones I do reply too.

(4) Prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to MountZion.
If you mean The Great Tribulation being the time of Gods’ wrath, which is the second part of the Tribulation, I can agree to this because I see the 144000 in Chapt 14 being a key in the time line of event to what we read in this book, because this book is seen in several sign/visions. I see the 144000 being the same and representing the rapture

You said, “Consequently, the 144,000 standing on MountZion are the best of the over comers of the church; that is to say, this group of 144,000 is representative of the totality of the over comers.”
What do you mean by best of the over comers of the church?

You said, “(1) “These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins”-We may not spiritualize the word “women” into “idols”, for the Bible does not support such an interpretation. Neither can we consider “women” as representing evil doctrines. Instead, “women” in the Bible is frequently translated “wives”; for example, the Greek word used for “wives” in Acts 21.5 is the same as used for “women” here in 14.4.”
Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

This is the same word for woman that you are referring to and is used in a bad term. Therefore we may use the word woman as like the word used in Rev. 17:

You said, The Scriptures not only mention this group of 144,000 as being undefiled with women but they also emphasize that they are virgins. This thus indicates that this portion of Scripture is not speaking of purity but of virginity.”
With the last rebuttal it indicates that this portion of Scripture is speaking of purity.
those whom God has given such a gift amount to only 144,000 (cf. Luke 20.35, 1 Cor. 7.7)
and
is absolutely impossible that there will be only 144,000 Christians who neither worship idols nor follow evil doctrines
These seem contradictory. Why is it possible for 144000 to be celibate and not for 144000 to neither worship idols nor follow evil doctrines?

You said, “These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth”-This verse does not speak of the past, it instead points to the present and the future. They are closest to the Lord, serving Him as His bodyguard.
Jesus has no need for bodyguards

You said, “It should be pointed out, in conclusion, that this portion of Scripture does not exclude women from among the 144,000.”
That would make sense for the ones not defiled with women.
But, with all do respect, you just canceled out you argument that these are the ones you claim them to be.

You said, "John saw the 144,000 as well as heard them”
Where does it say that john saw them?

You said, “It is because they will be lost in the wilderness for 42 months. Remember, they needed to flea so he can hear their suffering in order to escape Satan and the Antichrist.”
If you are referring to Rev. V 12:6 for the wilderness; Rev. 12:5-10 is represented as the first seal, the white horse. This verse is telling of the Jesus’ victory on the cross. I am referring this to when the Messiah shall be cut off in the last week in Daniels seventy weeks as told in Dan. 9:25-27.

Now, the thousand two hundred and sixty days in this verse is the first half of the seven years when God will finish His dealing with Israel and graft them back into the Olive Tree and Rapture the Israel of God to Himself as read in Rev. 7: then His wrath is poured out. I will show these verses for better understanding to you.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, come and see.
:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (Ref.Zec 6:11,14And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaks the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD::13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. :14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD.

5115. τόκον toxon tox'-on from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow.
4735. στέφανος stephanos stef'-an-os from an apparently primary stepho (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, 1238), literally or figuratively:--crown.

Note:The word for white is the same word to explain Jesus on the mount of transfiguration in Matt. 17:2

The bow in his hand is like a ribbon in the form of a bow, like one would receive as a prize (blue ribbon or bow is for first place). This would make sense because He has a crown which is also a prize. This horse refers to Jesus in chapter 12: 5-10 which describes Jesus winning the battle and conquered Satan.

Or, if you are referring to Rev. V 12: to the wilderness; Rev. 12:11-17 is represented as the second seal. The red horse, being the color of blood which is the start of martyrs for Christ.
2nd Seal:
Rev 6:3 and when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
:4 and there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

4969. σfάξω sphazo sfad'-zo a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently):--kill, slay, wound.

1515. εἰrήνη eirene i-ray'-nay probably from a primary verb eiro (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication, prosperity:--one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

3162. μάχαιrα machaira makh'-ahee-rah probably feminine of a presumed derivative of 3163; a knife, i.e. dirk; figuratively, war, judicial punishment:--sword.

(Reference these verses to Chapter 12: 11-17, which represents the devils’ wrath. This is when martyrdom started to happen. Martyrs are always butchered or slaughtered, red being the color of blood. The rider on this horse also has the same kind of sword that Jesus said to have brought and the same peace that He did not come to send.

Rev. 12: 14 refers to Hos 2:14Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

If you notice that Rev. 12:6 is almost the same as 12:14
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

I see this as the same instance but with a different view, hence, the two seals or horses.

[Churchwork]

The first rapture is seen at Rev. 7.9 which occurs before the Tribulation, 8ff. Think of chapters 12-19 as additional details on the major points of 6 to 11.

You asked, "What do you mean by the most spiritual tribes?" I already said, "Judah goes first" since it is the most spiritual tribe, even the one Christ was born from.

Your thought, "I would think that the tribe of Levi would be something like the second most spiritual tribe at least." Originally, yes, but they faltered, so given what their responsibility was, they did not keep what was given to them. Each of us is given a responsibility that we ought to live up to, and more is given to those with more gifts.

You had thought Josh 17.14, Rev 7.9, Lev 23.40-42 could help defend your view that rapture is after the Tribulation. But, Rev. 7.9 occurs before the trumpets of the Tribulation in chapter 8, and the festival of shelters typify in coming out of Egypt, after the passover, a deliverance from tribulation as in the coming Great Tribulation. The trumpets explain to us the full period of the Tribulation, loud and boisterous, for last seven in the consummation of this age.

You asked, "Why must the tribe of Judah mentioned in 7.5 be literal"? I gave you 10 reasons, and you did not find any legitimate fault with any of them (see below). "If Jesus calls Himself the tribe of Judah" - Jesus does not call Himself the tribe of Judah, but "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (v.5).


That is like saying how can something that is unified be divided? The number 12 fits a pattern of entirety.
Yes, 12 represents eternal perfection, but not the church. We never see the church divided into 12 ever, so it is not like saying something unified be divided, since the point is that there are not 12 parts or tribes to the church.

You asked why Israel in 7.4 is a nation? Because it says so, "tribes of the children of Israel." Israel has its 12 tribes.

God always treats 3 groups distinctly: Israel the nation, the Church and the other nations. This is necessary because God has still His covenant promise to fulfill for His chosen nation to be the center of all nations. The other nations will receive judgment in their position with regard to the Antichrist. And the church age ends with the new dispensation of the millennial kingdom at the appearance of Christ.

The order of rapture is with a firstfruits unto readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36) to escape the hour of trial including the Christians who are to be closest Christ, those who keep their virginity (Rev. 14.1-5). Then the later harvest occurs of a rapture at the last trumpet, before the bowls of the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 15 & 16 give us the bowls of the last trumpet in their addition details supplied for us of chapter 11 when the last trumpet is blown. Think of it this way: Gen. 3 gives the details of Gen. 2. Similarly, Rev. 12-19 give the details of Rev. 6-11. Gen. 1 shows us eternity past and restoration of creation. Rev. 21 shows us eternity future and chapter 20 shows us the regeneration of the world (Matt. 19.28). This is consistency. I love that.

The seals received by them are not the same in Rev. 7 compared to 14. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church. God does not demand only one kind of seal, for there are also the 6 secretive seals of the past 20 centuries (Rev. 6). A Father's children are children, not servants to the Father.

You said "not their Fathers name," but Rev. 14.1 says, "having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

"Jesus but a regular angel they don’t call God their Father" - Not at all! Because Jesus is unique, "another angel" (Rev. 7.1), and Israel does not call God their Father anywhere in the book of Revelation, does not mean this unique angel is a regular angel. That reasoning does not follow. Christians pray to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit. Israel does not know this relationship for they have not accepted the Christ.

The old song sung in Rev. 7.4 is shown in phrase "I heard" and the chorus that follows of the tribes of earthly Israel. 7.10 is unto the raptured church as they sing, but earthly Israel is not raptured, but transferred livingly into the millennium.

"The term for they are virgins means that they did not play the harlot as Israel did in the past by following other gods" - This can't be true since no such interpretation is given. Israel still has not accepted Christ yet, so Israel is still under another god during the Tribulation. It is not until Christ's appearance in Person at the end of the Tribulation will a remnant be saved into the millennium as shall other nations.

An article is a word preceding a subject, so your idea "There is no article but the word Him" does not preclude articles such as "the" and "a". In 14.1 we read "with him a hundred and forty and four thousand" (ASV, RSV) which is to be read "a hundred" of an uncertain affinity according to the Greek, "hekaton" (KJV). The exact same principle is true of 7.4.

"I can agree to this because I see the 144000 in Chapt 14 being a key in the time line" - If you can agree then you ought to accept there is a first rapture prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion. Israel is not raptured, but only a portion of the Church is raptured before the Tribulation according to Matt. 24.40-41, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10.


What do you mean by best of the overcomers of the church?
Exactly that! There are firstfruits and harbingers in every sphere.

"Gune" used in context should be the consideration, comparing Acts 21.5, Rev. 17.3 and 14.4. Obviously, in 21.5 it is literally women or wives. 17.3 is certainly negative, but this woman is the RCC. In 14.4, it is not about the RCC, but virginity, since it is absolutely impossible that there will be only 144,000 Christians who neither worship idols nor follow evil doctrines.

Matt. 19.10 Jesus' disciples then said to him, "Then it is better not to marry!"
11 "Not everyone can accept this statement," Jesus said. "Only those whom God helps. 12 Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made that way by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone who can, accept this statement."

Since Jesus is talking about virginity, this agrees. Again, we see, "the Lamb standing" (Rev. 14.1).

Judging by 14.1 here, those whom God has given such a gift amount to only 144,000 (cf. Luke 20.35, 1 Cor. 7.7).

"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Luke 20.35).

"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that" (1 Cor. 7.7).


Why is it possible for 144000 to be celibate and not for 144000 to neither worship idols nor follow evil doctrines?
Surely, more than 144,000 Christians do not worship idols or follow evil doctrines. Therefore, the 144,000 in Rev. 14 are referring to virgins as Christ referred to.

You asked, where did John see them? "And I looked...144,000" (14.1) Christian virgin firstfruits were seen. John also saw earthly Israel, "I saw..." (7.1,2). John sees the earthly Israel remnant protected and hidden for 42 months (12.6).


Rev. 12:5-10 is represented as the first seal, the white horse. This verse is telling of the Jesus’ victory on the cross. I am referring this to when the Messiah shall be cut off in the last week in Daniels seventy weeks as told in Dan. 9:25-27.
Rev. 12.5-10 does not refer to the first seal, since the first seal happened back on the cross almost 2000 years ago. There you see Christ sitting on the white horse with a bow that has shot an arrow giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross. The arrow intersected with the bow looks like a cross, and Jesus is the same Jesus on the while horse in Rev. 19 also.

Whereas the first seal is in conjunction with the Lamb that was slain in Rev. 5; then, after the major points of the past 20 centuries (Rev. 6) and the last week consummation of this age (Rev. 7-11), we find Rev. 12 expounds on the first part of the Tribulation (Rev. 12-19 give the details of 6-11).

12.5 Who is this “man child”? Some say it represents the children of Israel, but this is not possible due to the following reasons:

(1) The sun, moon and stars already represent the nation of Israel.

(2) This man child is caught up to the throne. The Bible never suggests that the nation of Israel will be raptured, for such a thought is in direct conflict with the prophecies concerning the nation of Israel.

(3) This man child trusts in the blood of the Lamb (12.11), but the nation of Israel does not. Some people have even advanced the theory that at the time of the Great Tribulation many of the children of Israel will believe in the Lord. Yet the Bible has not said this. What the Scriptures do say is that when the feet of the Lord Jesus shall touch the Mount of Olives God will open a fountain of salvation for the children of Israel, and then and there they will be saved (Zech. 13.1, 14.4, 12.10-14).

Some others advocate the interpretation of Christ being the man child, but this is also inapplicable for the following reasons:

(1) The woman represents Jerusalem, while the Lord Jesus is born in Bethlehem.

(2) This man child is not personal but corporate in character (12.10-11)-"accused them before our God day and night...they loved not their lives unto the death."

(3) Should this man child be Christ, the dragon will then be Herod, yet 12.9 states explicitly that the dragon is Satan himself.

(4) As soon as the man child is born, he is caught up to the throne, whereas the Lord Jesus is taken up to heaven only after He has lived over thirty years, died, and been raised from the dead.

(5) Because all this is a vision, the word “travail” cannot be interpreted literally.

Still others say that the man child denotes the whole church. This too is impossible since (1) the whole church is not all raptured at the same time: some will go in advance of others and some will follow afterward, but here the man child is caught up as a unit simultaneously; (2) to rule all the nations with an iron rod is not a promise given to the entire church, rather is it promised to the overcomers only (2.26-27), and not all in the church are overcomers; and (3) to reign is promised to those who suffer and endure with the Lord today (2 Tim. 2.12).

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father" (Rev. 2.26-27).

Who, then, is this man child? He must be the overcomers: for example, (1) some Christians in the church in Smyrna, since “Be thou faithful unto death” (2.10) coincides with the last clause in 12.11—“they loved not their life even unto death”; (2) some Christians in the church in Thyatira, for “he shall rule them with a rod of iron” (2.26,27) agrees with “a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (12.5); (3) some Christians in the church in Philadelphia, because they are kept out of “the hour of trial” (3.10) just as the man child is “caught up unto God” (12.5); and (4) some Christians in the church in Laodicea, since they will “sit” on the “throne” (3.21) just as the man child “is to rule all the nations” (12.5).

Accordingly, those represented by the man child are not the whole church but are the overcomers within the church. In our discussion of chapter 7 we also have eight points of similarity between the great multitude spoken of there and the man child mentioned here. Would you like to see them? For the man child represents a portion of that countless number. (Please note that chapter 7 deals with the general topic of rapture, whereas chapter 12 gives the details of some part of those raptured.)

Verse 5 “And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne”—In order to know the relationship between this man child and the woman, please read Galatians—”But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother” (4.26). Read also the last clause in the next verse: “For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” (v.27). The Jerusalem above is the New Jerusalem, which is the woman whom God has prepared to have in eternity to come.

She is none other than Eve in creation, the body of Christ in the dispensation of grace, this woman whom we see at the close of the dispensation of grace, and the New Jerusalem God will have in the eternity to come. A having many children does not suggest that the mother is separated from the children; rather does it mean that the one is divided into many, yet the many are combined into one. By adding up these many children you have the mother. It is not a case of a mother with five children making six, but a case of the five children making up the one mother. Each child is a part of the mother, who imparts a little of herself to each child. They seem as though they are begotten of her, yet actually they are but her own self. Thus the mother is not one who stands alongside her children but is the sum total of many children that are in view. This is a very special principle.

In chapter 12 the man child whom the woman delivers is subject to the same principle. This being a vision, it is symbolic in character. The word “delivered” here does not imply the idea of the child coming out and being separated from the woman, it instead implies that within the woman there is such a man child. In other words, a class of people is included in this woman. All the people of God are ordained to have a share in the eternal purpose and plan of God. Due to their failure in taking up responsibility, however, God chooses from among them a number of people. The people whom God has chosen from the many form the man child. The mother represents the whole, the man child represents the remnant.

This man child is the “brethren” mentioned in verse 10. He is not one person but is a considerable number of people—a composite of many; though in comparison with the mother, this man child is only a minority.

Nevertheless, in spite of their smallness in number as compared to the whole body, the plan and purpose of God is upon them.

“And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (v.5). Three times in the book of Revelation is this ruling with an iron rod mentioned. The first time is in 2.26,27: “And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron”—This most distinctly points to the overcomers in the church. The last time is in 19.15: “And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron”—This is in reference to the Lord Jesus.

Now then, to whom does this verse in 12.5 refer? If it is not applicable to the overcomers in the church it must have reference to the Lord Jesus.

Yet can it mean the Lord Jesus here? It is highly improbable (though not absolutely impossible, since later on we will observe that the Lord Jesus is also included). Why is it not probable? Because as soon as the man child is born he is caught up to the throne of God. It thus indicates that the man child cannot be Christ since the Lord Jesus when on the earth lived for over 33 years, died, and was raised from the dead before He ascended. Hence we believe this man child signifies the overcomers in the church. He represents a part of the church, that part which overcomes. Nonetheless, the man child also includes the Lord Jesus since He is the first overcomer and all other overcomers are included in Him.

12.6 “And the woman fled”—This is the same flight as is depicted in Matthew 24.6-20 and Luke 21.20-24. In 12.1 the woman is seen in heaven, but now in 12.6 she is in the wilderness. After the man child is born she loses her heavenly position. She is now none else but the Jerusalem on earth. A wilderness is a place both barren and uninhabited. God nourishes her as He did the children of Israel in the days of the Exodus.

In Galatians 4.21-31 we have a contrast: one is the heavenly Jerusalem, the other is the earthly Jerusalem; one represents the Christians, the other, the Jews; one is typified by Israel, the other, by Ishmael. The essential thought in all this is to prove that we Christians are free in the same way as Isaac was free.

The ordering of God's rapture and dealing with Israel is as follows: first Satan is in the process of falling from 2nd heaven (Rev. 12.4), but then, the man-child is first raptured (v. 5) who complete the removal with Michael to remove Satan from 2nd heaven (v.7). During this occasion, Israel goes through the wilderness for 42 months (after the first forty-two months) as Satan directs his attention on earthly Israel instead (v.6) as the Antichrist (9.1) breaks his promise and the second set of 42 months brings in the 3 woes.

Israel is not grafted back into the Olive Tree until Christ appears in person. You said the white horse represents Jesus, but the Bible says "he that sat on him" (Rev. 6.2) and "he that sat upon him" (19.11) is "faithful and true" (v.11).

The second seal follows the cross. The first horse (white) conquers by the bow, so it is battling at a distance. The red horse fights with the sword so it is battling in proximity. War is for the sake of war for destruction. This has been the nature of war these past 20 centuries by men wanting more power. The sword of the past 20 centuries has been the main vehicle of killing until recently.

"Rev. 12:11-17 is represented as the second seal" - No! While the second seal occurred in the past 20 centuries, Rev. 12 occurs with the first rapture of the manchild to commence the 7 year Tribulation at the end of this age.


12.10-12 “A GREAT VOICE”

12.10 Formerly God redeemed with the blood, but now He redeems with power. The authority of the kingdom of God is perfect at the throne; but before Satan is cast down, God’s will is not done in the air. After 1260 days the kingdom of God will come upon the earth, and then shall His will be done on earth also. (The casting out of demons recorded in Matthew 12.28 is a proof that the kingdom of God has come upon the earth.)

12.11 Three things are essential for overcoming the accuser: (1) The blood. (Since the accusations may not always be false, the blood is imperative for us.) We rest in the precious blood of the Lamb (Rom. 8.31-34). (2) The word of the testimony. Not only what the heart believes, but also what the mouth confesses concerning the same heart belief. As the word is spoken, Satan becomes helpless. (3) An attitude of not fearing death. The greatest of all temptations is death. If we maintain a right attitude, Satan is beaten.

12.12 In Revelation 13.1 a beast is mentioned as coming up out of the sea (Antichrist). In 13.11 it is recorded that a beast (the false prophet) comes up out of the earth. In 9.1 the Bible says that “a star” (the dragon) is fallen from heaven. When these three come upon the earth, there is “woe for the earth and the sea” as is stated here in verse 12.

The premonition of Satan (“knowing that he hath but a short time”) is comparable to the deduction that an historian might arrive at.
During the tribulation there is the wrath of God as well as the wrath of Satan.


12.13-17 “THE DRAGON . . . PERSECUTED THE WOMAN”

12.13 Many Old Testament prophets had made predictions concerning these events mentioned here and in the succeeding verses. During the time of the Great Tribulation the city of Jerusalem will be under the siege of nations. In persecuting the woman, the dragon is but carrying out his “great wrath” mentioned in the preceding verse.

12.14 Since the woman is symbolic, the wings must also be symbolic. God will give her a supernatural power to run fast. When God led the children of Israel out of Egypt He carried them as the eagle does its eaglets on its wings (Ex. 19.4; Deut. 32.11,12). The Jews at that time will receive special protection from God.

12.15 Since the “serpent” is Satan, the “water” mentioned here must mean something else too. By reading Jeremiah 46.7,8 we know that water signifies the rushing of enemy armies (cf. also Jer. 47.2,4; Is. 59.19). As the dragon casts water after the woman, so Satan will use the armies of the nations to pursue the children of Israel.

12.16 “Earth” is earth. In Exodus 15.10 we see that God uses water to overturn the Egyptian army; in Numbers 16.30 we read that He opens the earth to swallow up the rebellious; and now He uses the earth again in the same way to protect the chosen race.

12.17 The phrase “the rest of her seed” includes the faithful Jews and the Christians who are left behind. If these words refer only to the Jews it cannot be said of them that they “keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus”, since at this juncture the Lord has not yet returned to earth nor have the Jews believed in Him.

The word “saints” in 13.7 comprises in its meaning both the Jews and the Christians who are left behind. And hence they are the same people as is “the rest of the [woman’s] seed” spoken of in 12.17.

Ever since the first century there have been martyrs for Christ, so naturally the 2nd seal occurs immediately after the death of Christ on the cross in the first seal.You don't have to wait till the Tribulation for martyrs in Christ.

God accounts for the church age in Rev. 2 & 3 and the call to overcometh; gives us the picture of the universe from heaven in Rev. 4; retraces the cross in Rev. 5 and the first seal; goes over the atrocities of the past 20 centuries in Rev. 6; addresses the beginnings of remnant Israel (Rev. 7.1-8) and first rapture (Rev. 7.9) of the Saints; the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev. 8); the Great Tribulation (Rev. 9-11); details of the Tribulation (Rev. 12-19).

Conclusion: the 6 seals are the past 20 centuries. The 7th seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation. The 7th trumpet pours open the the 7 bowls of the end of the Tribulation.

Praise the Lord for this clarity!

[Churchwork]

It really would help you to understand the increasing intensity and shorter time periods.

From the 6 seals of the past 20 centuries (http://biblocality.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2445&postcount=2), to the the 7 trumpest of 7 years and to the 24 months of the 3rd woe (last trumpet), we see an increasing entensity of Satan's wrath as well as God's wrath against Satan.

[Enoch]

The first rapture is seen at Rev. 7.9 which occurs before the Tribulation, 8ff. Think of chapters 12-19 as additional details on the major points of 6 to 11.
I agree that rapture is seen at Rev. 7.9, but that is not the end.
Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour (season).
Note: This "silence in heaven about the space of half an hour" is actually 1/2 a season(3.5 yeas of the whole season of the 7 year tribulation) because He uses the term hour for the term season also in these verses, see vv.s Rev. 3:10, Rev. 17:12, Rev. 18:10, Rev. 18:17, Rev. 18:19.
This 1/2 a season is spoken of for our recognition of a division of events. First we see the rapture in chapter 7, then heaven becomes silent because of awe & reverence for what is about to happen, in other words God's wrath. The trumpets are part of Gods' wrath along with the vials. Then you, also, actually read when there is noise again in Heaven at the very end in Rev. 11:15. I will affirm that claim of this being the end when we get there.
This is when the trumpets and bowls come in.

You asked, "What do you mean by the most spiritual tribes?" I already said, "Judah goes first" since it is the most spiritual tribe, even the one Christ was born from.

Your thought, "I would think that the tribe of Levi would be something like the second most spiritual tribe at least." Originally, yes, but they faltered, so given what their responsibility was, they did not keep what was given to them. Each of us is given a responsibility that we ought to live up to, and more is given to those with more gifts.
What is your basis on how to judge for which ones are more spiritual?

You had thought Josh 17.14, Rev 7.9, Lev 23.40-42 could help defend your view that rapture is after the Tribulation.
When or where did I say this?
But, Rev. 7.9 occurs before the trumpets of the Tribulation in chapter 8,
I agree to this.

You asked, "Why must the tribe of Judah mentioned in 7.5 be literal"? I gave you 10 reasons, and you did not find any legitimate fault with any of them (see below). "If Jesus calls Himself the tribe of Judah" - Jesus does not call Himself the tribe of Judah, but "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (v.5).

I will ask another way. If something is literal an one part, Why then must it be taken literal in another?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
That is like saying how can something that is unified be divided? The number 12 fits a pattern of entirety.

Yes, 12 represents eternal perfection, but not the church. We never see the church divided into 12 ever, so it is not like saying something unified be divided, since the point is that there are not 12 parts or tribes to the church.
Why, then, does the wall of the city have twelve foundations then? Furthermore around the throne were twenty four thrones, and on the thrones was twenty four elders sitting; the 12 sons of Jacob and the twelve Apostles.

You asked why Israel in 7.4 is a nation? Because it says so, "tribes of the children of Israel." Israel has its 12 tribes.
It sais, 7:4 “hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” But ALL were not really sealed. There is minus Dan & Ephraim.

God always treats 3 groups distinctly: Israel the nation, the Church and the other nations. This is necessary because God has still His covenant promise to fulfill for His chosen nation to be the center of all nations. The other nations will receive judgment in their position with regard to the Antichrist. And the church age ends with the new dispensation of the millennial kingdom at the appearance of Christ.
Amen

The order of rapture is with a firstfruits unto readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36) to escape the hour of trial including the Christians who are to be closest Christ, those who keep their virginity (Rev. 14.1-5). Then the later harvest occurs of a rapture at the last trumpet, before the bowls of the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 15 & 16 give us the bowls of the last trumpet in their addition details supplied for us of chapter 11 when the last trumpet is blown. Think of it this way: Gen. 3 gives the details of Gen. 2. Similarly, Rev. 12-19 give the details of Rev. 6-11.
I kinda agree, but 12 – 19 is split into 2 parts 12-14 then a new sign in Chapt 15 – 19 But I like to divide 15 -19 in two as 15-16, 17-19.
Tell me how you like this outline.
The revelation Chap. 1
The Letters to the Churches in chap.' 2-3
The throne room in chaps.' 4,5
The Horsemen Chapt; 6:1-8
Chapt;6: 8-17 tells about the time during the Anti-christ reign untill the Rapture.
The trumpets; Chapt; 7-11 :
Then a whole new view or "sign" starts in chap. 12-14
Then another view or "sign" starts in chap. 15-16
Then the Judgment of the Harlot in chap. 17-19
Then the Millennium or the 1000 year reign of our Lord and the rebellion in chap. 20
Then Eternity in chap. 21-22

The seals received by them are not the same in Rev. 7 compared to 14. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church. God does not demand only one kind of seal, for there are also the 6 secretive seals of the past 20 centuries (Rev. 6). A Father's children are children, not servants to the Father.
I’m sorry, but you can’t talk me into that. A seal is a seal as the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

You said "not their Fathers name," but Rev. 14.1 says, "having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

"Jesus but a regular angel they don’t call God their Father" - Not at all! Because Jesus is unique, "another angel" (Rev. 7.1), and Israel does not call God their Father anywhere in the book of Revelation, does not mean this unique angel is a regular angel. That reasoning does not follow. Christians pray to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit. Israel does not know this relationship for they have not accepted the Christ.
Israel does have that relationship by then because they must accept Him as Saviour to receive the Seal to be raptured.

"The term for they are virgins means that they did not play the harlot as Israel did in the past by following other gods" - This can't be true since no such interpretation is given. Israel still has not accepted Christ yet, so Israel is still under another god during the Tribulation.
True, but, I see the “Israel of God” being The Christian Church and the Nation of Israel together because Israel accepted Christ as there Savior by then. The rest of Israel are part of the “Harlot” in Rev. 17. Then at the end of the Tribulation will a remnant be saved into the millennium as shall other nations.

An article is a word preceding a subject, so your idea "There is no article but the word Him" does not preclude articles such as "the" and "a". In 14.1 we read "with him a hundred and forty and four thousand" (ASV, RSV) which is to be read "a hundred" of an uncertain affinity according to the Greek, "hekaton" (KJV). The exact same principle is true of 7.4.


καὶ And μετ᾿ with αὐτοῦ Him ἑκατὸν standing τεσσεράκοντα fourty τέσσαρες four χιλιάδες, thousand…. There is no article ὁ, ἡ, τό “ha, hay, ta”

"I can agree to this because I see the 144000 in Chapt 14 being a key in the time line" - If you can agree then you ought to accept there is a first rapture prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11),
There is only one rapture and this and it the same rapture as 7:9.
The reason that an angle is proclaiming everlasting gospel in 14:6 is that there are no Christians to do it then.
these people are already raptured to Mount Zion. Israel is not raptured, but only a portion of the Church is raptured before the Tribulation according to Matt. 24.40-41, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10.
We have a different meaning of Mount Zion. People are raptured to the third Heaven.
Harlot Israel will not be raptured at all but only the ones who repent and accept Christ when He lands on Mt. Carmle to split it. They enter into the 1000 year reign of Christ along with those who do the same after the rapture.
Quote:
What do you mean by best of the overcomers of the church?

Exactly that! There are firstfruits and harbingers in every sphere.
I believe all Christians are overcomers.

"Gune" used in context should be the consideration, comparing Acts 21.5, Rev. 17.3 and 14.4. Obviously, in 21.5 it is literally women or wives.
Which 21.5?
17.3 is certainly negative, but this woman is the RCC.
God is dealing with Israel, not Rome. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is(was) married to God. After the Church and true Israel is raptured, all that is left is the whore. I believe as the church is grafted into the Olive tree with Israel, the world is grafted in to the same tree as the whore. Therefore all that is left after God takes for His own, He punishes with His wrath. However, a remnant of the Israel that is left might accept Christ when He lands on Mt Carmel.

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (Ref. Eze 16:26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbors, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.)
:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: (Ref Exo 28:5-9 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. :6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work. :7 It shall have the two shoulder pieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together. :8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen. :9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel: and 39:1-29
Jer 4:30-31And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothed thyself with crimson, though thou decked thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rented thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. 31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that brings forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewails herself, that spreads her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers 1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:)
:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (See note for v.9 Ref. Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.)
:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Ref Mat 23:34-37 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: :35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. :36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. :37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Luk 11:47-51 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. :48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchers. :49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: :50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; 51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. , Act 7:58-60 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. :59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. :60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.)
:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and ten horns.
Note: I believe that John Marveled because he was shocked as you are.
:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Note: Jesus was and is and is to come, a complete contrast to the devil.
Ref. Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season (shall ascend out of the bottomless pit). Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (and go into perdition)
And;
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? Are you become like unto us? (shall wonder)
Therefore, the beast is the devil.
:9 And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.
Note: There are really only a few choices that the seven mountains could be Babylon, Rome, or Jerusalem. I’d like to suggest that it is Jerusalem as you could tell from my scripture references through out this chapter. Jerusalem is recognized by Israel and God calls her a harlot in the book of Hosea. This is a time that God is dealing with Israel and not Rome. The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem to rule and to take his seat in the very temple of God and claim to be God. Ref, 2Thes. 2:4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God., 1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, salutes you; and so doth Marcus my son. Eze 16:36-37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; :37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.)
In 14.4, it is not about the RCC, but virginity, since it is absolutely impossible that there will be only 144,000 Christians who neither worship idols nor follow evil doctrines.
How then would it be possible for 144000 Christians to keep there virginity?

Judging by 14.1 here, those whom God has given such a gift amount to only 144,000 (cf. Luke 20.35, 1 Cor. 7.7).
Luke 20.35 is talking about glorified bodies in heaven & 1 Cor. 7.7 is talking about special circumstances that were then because of the persecution
Why is it possible for 144000 to be celibate and not for 144000 to neither worship idols nor follow evil doctrines?

Surely, more than 144,000 Christians do not worship idols or follow evil doctrines. Therefore, the 144,000 in Rev. 14 are referring to virgins as Christ referred to.
Hmmm, naw.

You asked, where did John see them? "And I looked...144,000" (14.1) Christian virgin firstfruits were seen. John also saw earthly Israel, "I saw..." (7.1,2). John sees the earthly Israel remnant protected and hidden for 42 months (12.6).
John does not se specifically the 144000 in 7:1-2, however, since he does se the Lamb and 144000 with him in14:1, of which the is no article before the number 144000.
The Greek rules are when there is no indefinite article then the word that seems to miss it is speaking of a specific and therefore refers to the 144000 in 7:5-8

Quote:
Rev. 12:5-10 is represented as the first seal, the white horse. This verse is telling of the Jesus’ victory on the cross. I am referring this to when the Messiah shall be cut off in the last week in Daniels seventy weeks as told in Dan. 9:25-27.

Rev. 12.5-10 does not refer to the first seal, since the first seal happened back on the cross almost 2000 years ago. There you see Christ sitting on the white horse with a bow that has shot an arrow giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross. The arrow intersected with the bow looks like a cross, and Jesus is the same Jesus on the while horse in Rev. 19 also.
That is what the first seal is.

Whereas the first seal is in conjunction with the Lamb that was slain in Rev. 5; then, after the major points of the past 20 centuries (Rev. 6) and the last week consummation of this age (Rev. 7-11), we find Rev. 12 expounds on the first part of the Tribulation (Rev. 12-19 give the details of 6-11).
The first four seals span from the Crucifixion to the reign of the anti-christ and the false prophet. Rev 12 spans from the birth of Israel to this present day.


Conclusion: the 6 seals are the past 20 centuries. The 7th seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation. The 7th trumpet pours open the the 7 bowls of the end of the Tribulation.

Almost correct. I see the sixth seal being part of the sixth bowl. My theory is that I believe it is possible for these two witnesses to be responsible for the seven bowls that God pours out on the earth.
The premise for this is that these two witnesses are in the same time span or sixth trumpet as the four angels who have been bound at the great river Euphrates in verse 9:14 which coincide with the sixth bowl. Also, we don’t read of the Judgment bowls in this great sign of this vision. Therefore I believe the bowls fit together into the sixth and seventh trumpet.

[Churchwork]

First rapture takes place at Rev. 7.9 and the last trumpet rapture and resurrection take place at 11.15. This is called partial rapture with the first rapture being according to readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36).


What is your basis on how to judge for which ones are more spiritual?

The ordering stipulated in Rev. 7.1-8 and the Old Testament, such as what was mentioned about Judah and Northern Israel and Dan already.

I will ask another way. If something is literal an one part, Why then must it be taken literal in another?
This is too vague a question. God deals in specifics, so if you want to ask something, ask specifically. Take the full Word into account.

Why, then, does the wall of the city have twelve foundations then? Furthermore around the throne were twenty four thrones, and on the thrones was twenty four elders sitting; the 12 sons of Jacob and the twelve Apostles.
It has 12 foundations in remembrance of the 12 Apostles who were the first Apostles. How important Apostles are for they are directly commissioned by God to appoint Elders of a locality according to Biblical locality.

Furthermore around the throne were twenty four thrones, and on the thrones was twenty four elders sitting; the 12 sons of Jacob and the twelve Apostles.
These 24 elders are 24 archangels, the eldest elders of the universe. They are seated on thrones now while Christ is standing. Would the church be seated on thrones before the Church is raptured? No one is raptured to 3rd heaven yet, not even David. You don't come before the High Priest naked. Before you can enter 3rd heaven, you need to receive a newly clothed spiritual body which we shall receive together (1 Thess. 4.15-17).

As regards the 24 elders, it is rather absurd to deem them as signifying the glorified church, Israel, 12 Apostles or 12 Patriarchs, for the following reasons:

(1) 24 is not the number of the church; only seven or multiples of seven are, such as the seven churches in Asia.
(2) Nowhere in the Scriptures does “elder” ever represent the church. There are elders in the church and among the Jews, but not all believers are elders. God first created the angels, then He chose the Jews, and finally gave grace to the church. How can the church bear the title of elders?
(3) In Revelation 4 and 5 we learn that the elders sit on thrones with crowns of gold on their heads, whereas Christ is standing there. Can the church receive glory before Christ is glorified? Thrones and crowns are symbols of kingship.
(4) The elders are clothed with white garments. Some suggest that these garments speak of Christ our righteousness for His blood has washed them white. Yet nowhere in the Scriptures is there mention made that the garments of the elders are washed with the blood. Our robes need to be washed with blood because we have sinned; but the 24 elders have never sinned.
(5) The elders never experience redemption. In chapter 4 we observe that they sing the song of creation. And we see in chapter 5 that though they sing the song of redemption, they sing not of themselves but of men who are purchased by the blood of the Lamb. “And madest them to be . ... ,,(v.10) - The word “them” here refers to the church. Now if it is the church who sings, would she use “them”?
(6) Revelation 4 deals with the universe and not with the church, the nations, or the Jews. And hence we may say that these are the elders of the universe, The church is not an elder of the universe.
(7) Revelation 5.8. The church cannot bring people’s prayers to God.
(8) Revelation 7.13 If John also represents the church, it would then be the church asking the church.
(9) John calls one of the elders “My lord” (7.14), thus indicating that his position is lower than the elders. If the 24 elders represent the church, then John who is among the first in the church, should be the elder of the elders.
(10) The number 24 should be taken literally, not symbolically. Since one of the elders speaks to John, how can one twenty-fourth of the church talk to John? The number is fixed, and hence the elders are fixed. These 24 elders are archangels who rule the universe. Even under Satan in his domain there are principalities and authorities.

It sais, 7:4 “hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” But ALL were not really sealed. There is minus Dan & Ephraim.
This has already been explained in a previous post how the OT treats Dan. Dan will have some association with the Antichrist. All 144,000 were really sealed. There are 12 tribes named, 12,000 from each tribe. In God's infinite foreknowledge, He knew to replace Dan with another for the purposes of preserving a remnant, just as Judas was replaced.

A seal is a seal as the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
The church is sealed for rapture. Israel is not sealed for rapture. Bother foreordained by the Holy Spirit, but the application is not the same. The secretive seals of the past 20 centuries also show us another application by the Holy Spirit. They are secret, because the world doesn't understand them, even many in the kingdom of heaven don't understand their application. Once the Tribulation starts, added clarity will be given to them, for example, pertaining to exactly what specific events associated to the 6th seal before the Tribulation started. I am pretty sure what events they are though. The more spiritual your walk, the more you will be accurate to the account.

Israel does have that relationship by then because they must accept Him as Saviour to receive the Seal to be raptured.
Israel is not raptured as a whole. It is a nation as are other nations. For someone to be raptured, they must come to the cross and enter into the body of Christ. The seal of Israel is the covenant promise she will be the center of all nations in which God will save a remnant of this nation. It is not for rapture.

I see the “Israel of God” being The Christian Church and the Nation of Israel together because Israel accepted Christ as there Savior by then. The rest of Israel are part of the “Harlot” in Rev. 17. Then at the end of the Tribulation will a remnant be saved into the millennium as shall other nations.
Israel did not accept Christ by then, but when Christ stepped down on the mount of olives at the end of the 84 months of the Tribulation. Israel as a nation will be the center of all nations. She won't be the Harlot spoken of in Rev. 17, for this woman who sits on the beast is religious "Rome" which is to say, the Roman Catholic Church and any marriages she makes with the gibberish babble of false tongues in Pentecostalism (called RCC Charismatics) or other large bodies dividing the body of Christ falsely with false teachings. The Antichrist though will destroy the RCC because it is in name in Christ. The RCC will be destroyed before the millennium starts, for she makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8).

The Israel of God is the Church because the true Jew is the Christian. Abraham saw God as Father. He proved Him to be the Source of all things. Isaac received the inheritance as a son. It is a blessed thing to have a gift bestowed upon us by God. Yet even what we receive we may seize upon and spoil. Jacob attempted to do this, and was only saved from the consequences by having his natural strength undone. There must be a day in our experience when this happens. The characteristic of those who truly know God is that they have no faith in their own competence, no reliance upon themselves. When Jacob learned this lesson, then in truth there began to be an Israel of God.

The salvation of a nation is not the same thing as a salvation unto eternal life. The former allows that nation to enter into the millennium. The latter receives rapture.

There is no article
The article was already given which is in the KJV, RSV and ASV, preceded by "a" in Rev. 7.4 and 14.1. Go to your Lexicon. It says "uncertain affinity" and "a hundred...". It does not say "the..."

There is only one rapture and this and it the same rapture as 7:9.
The reason that an angle is proclaiming everlasting gospel in 14:6 is that there are no Christians to do it then.
If you are a Christian, and you don't keep the Word of His patience (were unprayerful and unwatchful) God will put you through the Tribulation, even to be martyred. There will be lots of martyred Christians during the Tribulation, who were not yet ready to be received before the throne at the first rapture (Rev. 7.9).

(1) By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

(2) The places to be raptured towards are also different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air” – Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time.

(3) Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage relates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.

The rapture that occurs first at Rev. 7.9 (first rapture) takes place before the trumpets of the Tribulation. The rapture near the end of the Tribulation is at 1 Thess. 4.15-17; 1 Cor. 15.23, 50-52) of the last trumpet. God says to escape the Tribulation, you will need to keep the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10) and keep watchful and prayerful (Luke 21.36).


Rev. 14.6, 7 (cf. with v.8) “THE FIRST ANGEL”

14.6 “Another angel” - He is different from the “another angel” spoken of in 7.2 that points to the Lord.

“Eternal good tidings”-The eternal gospel or good tidings is different from the gospel of grace. From the description which follows (14.7), it can be concluded that this eternal gospel is for the purpose of inducing people to worship the Creator. The eternal gospel preaches not God’s redemption but His creation. It does not call man to worship the Lamb but to worship God. It does not proclaim the grace of God, only His judgment. It exhorts people to give glory to God.

Those meant by the phrases “them that dwell on the earth” and “every nation and tribe and tongue and people” (14.6) are not the same. The first refers to that special class of people from among the second-those who are especially related to the earth and who love worldly things most dearly. The future kingdom of Antichrist will only be as big as the Roman Empire, yet its influence will reach every nation and tribe and tongue and people. The words “them that dwell on the earth” may allude to those who dwell within the Roman Empire.

The gospel presented at this juncture is not proclaimed to cause people to believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved; instead, it is to teach them to worship God and not the image of the beast.

How do the sheep mentioned in Matthew 25.34-40 know to treat our Lord’s little brother well (see v.40)? It is due to the influence of the proclamation of the angel here.

14.7 “Fear God”-It is clear in the Old Testament that to be kind to others is indicative of the people’s fearing God. Since the hour of judgment is come, let people fear God and give glory to Him.

Heaven is damaged at the fourth trumpet. The earth is damaged at the first trumpet; the sea, at the second; and the fountains of all waters, at the third.


14.8 “A SECOND ANGEL”

To what does this city of Babylon refer? To Babylon or to Rome? The Babylon in chapter 17 is a mystery and has reference to Rome as a religious system. The Babylon here in 14.8 is also connected with the Roman religious system, for the description concerning both is the same. So that the second angel notifies the world that Babylon is fallen; that us to say, the Roman religious system is defeated. From this we can infer that the big harvest (7th trumpet rapture and resurrection) follows upon the defeat of the Roman religious system.

“The wine of the wrath of her fornication” signifies the oppression which the Roman religious system will mete out to people. To those unfaithful to the Lord will she give the wine of fornication; and to the faithful will she give the wine of wrath. Wine speaks of that which bewilders people.
The Roman religious system will be revived, but she will also be totally destroyed.


We have a different meaning of MountZion. People are raptured to the third Heaven. Harlot Israel will not be raptured at all but only the ones who repent and accept Christ when He lands on Mt.Carmle to split it. They enter into the 1000 year reign of Christ along with those who do the same after the rapture.
If you are a Christian, you should have the same meaning of Zion that I do since it holds the same principle throughout the Word of God.


The Principle of Overcomers

The way God works, as illustrated in His Holy Scriptures, is to find a few as a nucleus in order to reach the many. This was true in the patriarchal age. At that time God chose people individually: those such as Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham. Later on through Abraham (the few) God reaches the whole nation of Israel (the many)—that is to say, God reaches the dispensation of the law through the patriarchal age. Then from the dispensation of the law (the nation of Israel) God reaches to the dispensation of grace (the church out of all nations); and likewise from the dispensation of grace He will reach to the dispensation of the kingdom (the entire world), and from the dispensation of the kingdom to the new heaven and the new earth (the new creation), for the kingdom is the prologue to the new heaven and the new earth. So then, the principle of God’s operation is from the few to the many.

". . . the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increaseth with the increase of God" (Col. 2.19). The joints are for supplying, while the bands are for knitting. The Head holds the body together through these joints and bands. And these joints and bands are the overcomers.

Jerusalem typifies the whole church, whereas Zion—which is in Jerusalem—represents the overcomers in the church. Jerusalem is larger than Zion, yet Zion is the stronghold of Jerusalem. What answers to the heart of God is called Zion; that which speaks of the failure and sins of the Jews is called Jerusalem. God allows Jerusalem to be trodden down, but He usually keeps Zion intact. There will be a new Jerusalem, but there is no new Zion because Zion never grows old.

Each time the relationship between Zion and Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament we are shown that the characteristics, life, blessing and establishing of Jerusalem are invariably derived from Zion. The elders were in Jerusalem, the ark was to be in Zion (1 Kings 8.1). God does good in His good pleasure to Zion, and He builds the walls of Jerusalem (Ps. 51.18). God’s name is in Zion, while His praise is in Jerusalem (Ps. 102.21). God blesses out of Zion, and Jerusalem receives the good of it (Ps. 128.5). The Lord dwells in Jerusalem, yet He receives praises out of Zion (Ps. 135.21). God speaks first to Zion, and then the good tidings reach Jerusalem (Is. 41.27). He dwells in Zion and thus sanctifies Jerusalem (Joel 3.17).

God today is seeking, among the defeated church, 144,000 (a representative figure, to be sure) to stand on mount Zion (Rev. 14.1). Each and every time, He uses relatively few believers as channels to pour forth life into the church for her revival. As their Lord did, these few must pour forth blood in order to let life flow. The overcomers are to stand on the ground of victory for the church and instead of the church. They are to endure sufferings and shames.

Therefore, God’s overcomers must forsake all self-complacencies, pay the cost, let the cross cut off all that comes out of the old creation, and stand against the gates of Hades (Matt. 16.18).

Are you willing to hurt your own heart that you may gain God’s heart? Are you ready to let yourself be defeated so that the Lord may triumph? When your obedience is made full, God will quickly avenge all the disobedience (2 Cor. 10.6).

There is the first rapture of the overcomer believers before the Tribulation; then the rapture of the martyrs individually during the Tribulation like the Two Witnesses are raptured 3.5 days after they die; there is the last trumpet rapture which is in the first month of the last trumpet (19th month of the Great Tribulation at the 3rd woe); Christ appears at the 42nd month of Great Trib.; and there are the gleanings raptures which follow the last trumpet rapture. The gleanings are in the last 24 months of the Tribulation and may be included also from the 1260th day to the 1290th day, before Israel receives her glory.

I believe all Christians are overcomers.
All Christians are to overcome, though they do not do so at the same time. For example, some Christians don't keep the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10) so they are not accounted worthy to be received at the first rapture. Some believers do not keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7, or they are not watchful and prayerful. In each church period there are overcomers and non-overcomers in the Church as stipulated in Rev. 2 & 3, those that receive rewards to reign during the millennium and others that do not. This is called accountability. Under your teaching, there is no accountability, so you can lie on a bed of fornication without consequences, so you think. This is actually a heresy called antinomianism for those who think they can abuse Christianity and get away with it. Non-overcomers do not reign (Rev. 20.4) in the millennium, but are disciplined in outer darkness after the judgment seat for believers, which has no fire or furnace about it.

Which 21.5?
I already said.

God is dealing with Israel, not Rome.
Whereas your god is only dealing with Israel, so you think, my God is dealing with Israel and Rome, even religious Rome and political Rome. My God trumps your god.

Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is(was) married to God. After the Church and true Israel is raptured, all that is left is the whore.

The Roman Catholic Church-religious Rome, the great harlot-and all the little harlots, are indeed married to the world, as is political Rome. Only the Church is raptured which is true Israel. Israel the nation, like other nations, will not be raptured, but is grafted back into the olive tree to be the center of all nations. At first rapture of the Church, religious Rome, the woman who sits on the beast, is still operating on earth, but through the process of the Tribulation it will be dismantled by the Antichrist, for it is if only in name in Christ. This agrees with the verses you cites: Rev. 17.2, Ez. 16.26, Rev. 17.4, Ex. 28.5-9,39.1-29; Jer. 4.30-31, 1 Thess. 2.15; Rev. 17.5, 9; Isa. 1.21, Rev. 17.6, Matt. 23.34-37, Luk 11.47-51, Acts 7.58-60. Israel is subject to sin, just as anyone is. God deals with the Jews, the Gentiles and Christians. He is a respecter of no persons (Acts. 10.34).

The long section from Rev. 17.1 to 18.24 is best to be taken as one single chapter. Please note also that 18.1-3 serves as transitional words, since they conclude what has been spoken previously and commence what is next going to be said; for these verses mention the following three things:

(1) “By the wine of the wrath of her fornication all the nations are fallen”—only chapter 17 mentions this (17.2);
(2) “The merchants of the earth waxed rich by the power of her wantonness”—only chapter 18 mentions this (18.11,15); and
(3) “The kings of the earth committed fornication with her”—both chapters 17 and 18 speak about this (17.2, 18.9).

The word “Babylon” comes from “Babel”: It is recorded in Genesis 10 and 11 that Nimrod built the city of Babel in the land of Shinar. It was he who tried to protect himself by his own strength. The origin of the tower of Babel is found in Genesis 11.1-4. God confounded the language of the people and scattered them abroad upon the face of all the earth. Hence the city was called “Babel” (11.9). “Babel” or “Babylon” simply means “confusion”. Idol-worship began there, and it stood in opposition to God.

The city grew larger and larger until it reached its golden age at the time of Nebuchadnezzar. Due to the unfaithfulness of the children of Israel, God delivered them into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon.
In the days of Daniel, King Nebuchadnezzar dreamed of a huge image: and by interpretation he himself was the image’s head of gold, the most prosperous period in the history of Babylon; then Medo-Persia (the image’s arms of silver) destroyed Babylon, and the city became desolate. Later on, Greece (the image’s belly of brass) destroyed Medo-Persia; and Greece was in turn destroyed by Rome (the image’s legs of iron). Babylon was therefore the first kingdom, while Rome was the last kingdom. And these four kingdoms oppressed the Jews. Three kingdoms have already passed away, but Rome has continued on. The ten toes of the image have yet to appear. Now just as Babylon had greatly worshiped idols and deeply hated the Jews, so has Rome.

Rome was not only politically a city, it was also a center of religion. In the city of Rome were to be found many Christians, yet Rome hated Christians the most. Not until the fourth century after Christ did Constantine the Great accept Christianity and encourage his people to do the same. With the result that Christianity became the official religion of Rome. At the same time, though, the center of politics shifted from Rome to Constantinople. Rome itself became subject to the rule of Constantinople and remained that way until the sixth century. At the time of Leo a general council was held at Constantinople wherein idol-worship was condemned as heretical and illegal. Rome opposed this, and she broke with Constantinople. Thus were formed the Eastern Roman Church (the Greek Orthodox Church) and the Western Roman Church (the Roman Catholic Church). The influence of the Eastern Roman Church began to wane, but that of the Western Roman Church increased steadily. A great number of Christians suffered death at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church.

According to Revelation 17 and 18 the Roman Catholic Church will experience tremendous growth in the future, far exceeding that of the past. Her influence will be enormous. But when Antichrist shall arise and set up his image as an object of worship, he with his ten subordinate kings shall destroy the Roman Church. Nevertheless, with the passing of Rome religious, Rome political will still continue. She will make the Mediterranean Sea a center of her influence. Three and a half years later, God will destroy Rome political.

Why is it that chapters 17 and 18 do not mention Rome plainly, but use Babylon instead? Because John lived under the reign of Rome. If he should have plainly written of Rome, his writing might not have been able to be circulated—yet not that John was afraid to write explicitly, but that the Holy Spirit intended to have it hidden. Nevertheless, the same Spirit is concerned lest people take Babylon as being literal. So in Revelation 17.5 He declares:

(1) “Mystery, Babylon the Great”—Being a mystery, it must be spiritual and not literal in its interpretation. For instance, if in 11.8 Jerusalem had been plainly mentioned, the Jews would have immediately risen up in arms. So that a spiritualized form of writing is here used.
(2) By saying Babylon the Great instead of simply Babylon, it intimates that this Babylon is much greater than the actual Babylon of the past. Such a rendering thus helps the reader to know that Babylon is not to be taken as Babylon literally but is to be understood as standing for Rome.


Why Babylon Here Points to Rome

(1) Only one city in the world is built on seven hills or mountains, and that is the city of Rome. Rome historically is called the seven-hilled city (cf. 17.9).
(2) “Fallen” in 17.10 has reference, as we have indicated before, to violent death. Some were murdered, some committed suicide. At the time of John’s writing this book, the king who was then living must have been a Roman Caesar.

(3) Besides the king of Rome there was none else at that time who reigned over the kings of the earth (cf. 17.18).
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (v.18).


In What Respects Babylon Resembles Rome

(1) Babylon was the first nation which broke through to the Jewish holy land and entered the holy place. But so did Rome.

(2) Babylon, as we have said, means confusion. How very greatly confused was Rome also—and still is! She mixed up the church with the country, the church with the world, law with grace, the traditions of men with the word of God, the pagans with the Christians, Judaism with Christianity, God’s promises to the church with His promises to the Jews, the carnal with the spiritual, the earthly with the heavenly, the present rejection with the future glory. In fact, she is the center of all mixtures. How extensive is her confusion indeed!

(3) The church fathers themselves regarded Rome as Babylon. Tertullian noted that Babylon was Rome. Jerome said, “When I dwelt in Babylon and resided within the walls of the scarlet adulteress, and had the freedom of Rome, I undertook a work concerning the Holy Spirit, which I proposed to ascribe to the Bishop of that city.” And Augustine said, “Babylon is a former Rome, and Rome a later Babylon.” *

(4) Some prominent Romish writers such as Robert Bellarmine, Cesare Baronius, Jacques Bossuet, and Hug have also admitted that Babylon meant Rome. Bellarmine, for example, wrote this: “Moreover, John in the Apocalypse everywhere calls Rome Babylon.” **

* Robert Govett, The Apocalypse Expounded, London: Chas. J. Thynne, 1920, p. 442.
** Govett, Ibid., p. 442.

There is a school of thought which maintains that Babylon points only to political Rome, not to religious Rome. This concept, though, is erroneous. If Babylon only refers to political Rome, why should “fallen” be mentioned twice in 14.8 and 16.19? For the event represented by the word “fallen” in 14.8 happens before the setting up of the image of the beast; therefore it is an event occurring during the first three and a half years. But the “fallen” (“fell”) told about in 16.19 takes place at the time of the seventh bowl, that is to say, after the setting up of the image of the beast. Hence there must be two different aspects of Babylon in view. This fits in perfectly with both religious Rome (since “Babylon” means confusion, and this confusion prevails in the realm of religion) and political Rome (since “Rome” in Hebrew means “the one who exalts himself”, and how she exalts herself in opposition to God).

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14.8).

"And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath" (Rev. 16.19).
“Mystery, Babylon the Great” alludes to the religion of Rome. The reasons for this view are:

(1) “The great harlot that sitteth upon many waters” (17.1). This harlot is a city. Since the city of Rome is never built on many waters (there is only one river in the city of Rome), this harlot cannot be applied to political Rome.

(2) “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth” (17.9). As indicated earlier, Rome is built on seven mountains and she is called ‘the seven-hilled city. Since this seven-hilled city points to political Rome, the harlot here who sits on the seven mountains cannot herself be representative of political Rome but must stand for religious Rome that sits above political Rome.

(3) “And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder” (17.6). Should this woman point to political Rome, where is the wonder or surprise to be found in that? She instead must be religious Rome, and hence the amazement. It is not at all surprising for the nations to persecute Christians; but for the Roman Church to persecute Christians, this is really astounding.

(4) The “fornication” mentioned in 17.2 cannot be applied to something physical, it has to be a reference to something doctrinal in nature. A physical city is unable to commit physical fornication; so that what is meant here must have application to religious Rome.

"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication" (rev. 17.2).

(5) Political Rome controls the kings of the earth, hence it is not possible for political Rome to commit fornication with them. The great harlot in 17.2 is without doubt religious Rome.

Nevertheless, Babylon also has reference to political Rome, for the following reasons:

(1) According to 17.16 the end of the woman comes when she is burned by the beast (Antichrist) and ten horns (ten subordinate kings). But in 18.8 she is judged by God. For this reason, 17.16 has reference to the religious aspect whereas 18.8 has reference to the political aspect.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire" (Rev. 17.16).

"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18.18).

(2) In 18.7 it reads: “She saith in her heart, I sit a queen”; but by the time of 17.16 she is already dethroned by the beast and the ten kings. How, then, can it still be said in 18.7 that she sits a queen? This is possible only because one speaks of religious Rome and the other of political Rome.

(3) Chapter 17 is largely symbolic, while the latter half of chapter 18 is almost entirely literal. The angel explains to John what is shown in chapter 17 because it is allegorical; but the second part of chapter 18 needs no interpretation since it is not symbolic.

(4) After 8.13 records “Woe, woe, woe”, there in fact do come three woes shortly thereafter. Similarly, when 18.2 mentions “fallen, fallen”, there must be two fallings to come; one, the fall of political Rome; the other, the fall of religious Rome.

(5) There are two Jerusalems referred to in this book: one is on earth and one, in heaven. Likewise, there are to be found the two aspects of Rome in this book: one which is political and one religious. These two are distinguishable but not separable.

17.1 This begins the narration of the things that are to occur after the pouring out of the seven bowls. Is it not interesting that one of the seven angels who has the seven bowls signifies the New Jerusalem to John in direct contrast with what is said in 17.1? Before the harlot is judged, God cannot show forth the wife of the Lamb.

The phrase “many waters” here in 17.1 indicates “Peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues” (see 17.15). The harlot sits upon peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. In other words, the influence of Rome extends throughout the entire world. How the Romish system frequently styles itself as the mistress and mother of all churches.

Why does God call this woman a harlot? Because she communicates and commingles with the world. She has so broadened the communion of the saints as to hold inter course with the world. What she gains is worldly pleasure and earthly glory. She has become savorless salt. A harlot is one who commits fornication without the due process of marriage. An adulteress is a woman who commits fornication [I]after being married. God therefore calls her a harlot, since a harlot is a woman who commits fornication before marriage; thus signifying that God has never recognized the relationship between the Roman Church and Christ. Like a harlot, the Roman Church has not kept her virginity for Christ.

This woman is called a “great harlot”: Had the Roman Catholic Church observed Matthew 5-7, she could not be great—she could only develop into a “little flock” (Luke 12.32). Her testimony would simply be that the world is rebellious and that Christ shall come again to judge it. Her being “great” is exactly what the Lord predicted in Matthew 13.32.

"Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds [as demons] of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof" (Matt. 13.32).

In this connection we need to read Genesis 1 which states that “the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind” (v.12). Yet Matthew 13 records the Lord Jesus as saying this: “When it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becometh a tree” (v.32). A herb is not to be a tree. Hence the greatness here described in Revelation is the greatness of a harlot. Please observe that the Romish pope is greater than an emperor. An emperor can only control a man’s body, but a pope can control a man’s soul, yes, even that of the emperor’s. Now such a situation is not at all normal for the church on earth.

17.2 “With whom the kings of the earth committed fornication”—By way of explanation please consider the following:

(1) In order to please the kings of the earth, the Roman Church was willing to baptize them as long as they wished to be baptized. Thus, she auctioned away the principles of Christ and the word of God.

(2) She made the church co-extensive with the state. Christianity became the state religion of Rome. Anyone who was born a Roman could be a Christian. Normally the church was smaller than the state, but now she became equally as big.

(3) The Church joined to herself the political powers of kings and rulers. The foremost sin of fornication she can commit is to force Christianity on the people by means of the powers of kings and emperors. This was done not only by Rome but also by many other nations. The result was to make merely nominal Christians out of people.

To commit fornication with the kings of the earth is said to be, interpretively speaking, the Roman Church’s direct relationship with them. But the verse, “and they that dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her fornication”, speaks of her indirect relationship with the people on earth. Wine here signifies heresies. The Romish Church has caused people on earth to lose their self-determination and to become foolish through heretical doctrines. On the one hand she has taught that by giving a little money and by making confession to a priest a person’s sin may be forgiven, but on the other hand she has failed to instruct people how they ought to live a holy life. She allows them to indulge in worldly pleasures. Indeed, this wine of her fornication has made the whole world drunk. It is quite true that without religion no one could live on earth. For this reason, the Roman Church is most palatable to the taste of the world. She disregards spiritual reality on the one hand, yet on the other uses all sorts of religious rituals to create emotional comforts as well as glowing expectation within the hearts of the people.
So has been the Church of Rome, and so shall she be revived in the future. Once a Roman Catholic, one dies a Roman Catholic. Several big denominations in the United States had no increase during one year, whereas the Roman Catholics added several millions to their record and still by far remains the largest.

17.3 “Wilderness” may be interpreted spiritually, for the world is referred to in Scripture as a wilderness (Ps. 107.33,34); or it may be interpreted literally, since the vicinity of Rome itself has been called a “marble wilderness” by some.*

* Govett, op. cit., p. 428.

"So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns" (Rev. 17.3).

“A woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast”—This beast represents the Roman Empire, for the seven heads and ten horns are merely part of it; it also points to Antichrist, because even though he is the eighth head he nevertheless possesses all the villainy of the other seven as well as the powers of the ten horns. God looks upon Antichrist as just a wild beast. Moreover, He looks upon this woman as a harlot, for she is not as irrationally vicious as a wild beast, though she abandons her rationality and acts a harlot.

“A woman sitting upon . . . a beast”—This speaks of the union of the Roman Church with the Roman state. How this woman has made use of the state! If a local magistrate had offended a Roman Catholic priest, the pope might have issued an interdict upon the city, prohibiting the celebration of mass and thus stirring up the people against their magistrate. Or if the Roman Church had wished for any action to be taken against some people, she would not have acted directly; instead, she would have instigated the Roman state to act. The woman’s influence is as great as that of the beast, because she rides on the beast.

The color of the beast is red as that of the dragon is red. This indicates that this beast comes out of the dragon; therefore, it is the same as the dragon.

“Full of names of blasphemy”—This is different from the words of blasphemy. The words “names of blasphemy” mean calling oneself with the names used of God. How the Roman caesars were accustomed to employing divine titles!

17.4 “Purple”—This is the color adopted in the Roman Empire as the symbol of honor and power. For example, a Roman senator had a broad strip of purple on the breast, while a knight had a narrow strip of it. The emperor wore a purple robe. For the woman to be thus arrayed in purple means that she is in possession of earthly glory (note that the rich man cited in Luke 16.19 wore a robe of purple).

Purple is not a basic color since it is the combination of blue and red colors. Blue is the heavenly color, but red is the earthly (for note that the Biblical place-name Edom means red, and therefore this color denotes that which is earthly). Hence purple is the blending of heaven and earth.

Scarlet is the color of Rome—“‘I caused this inquiry to be made of an intelligent gentleman who had passed much time in Rome, without his knowing my design,’ said Barnes. ‘What would strike a stranger on visiting Rome, or what would be likely particularly to arrest his attention as remarkably there?’ And he unhesitatingly replied, ‘The scarlet color.’” *Scarlet is the special color of the ecclesiastical cardinals as well as the popes. The cardinals are so called since their dresses, their hats, their cloaks, and their stockings are always of scarlet. In the case of the pope, even the inner lining of his cloak is scarlet; and the costume of his bodyguard is also scarlet. Whenever the pope travels, he is welcomed with decorations of scarlet color.

* Govett , op. cit., p.430.

“And decked with gold and precious stone and pearls”—All these things represent the truths of God. The Roman Church, like this woman, adorns herself with these outwardly (cf. 1 Peter 3.3, 1 Tim. 2.9); yet her real condition is most abnormal in the sight of God.

"Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel" (1 Peter 3.3).

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Tim. 2.9).

“Having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations”—This woman has no crown on her head for she is not a genuine queen, neither does she hold a staff in her hand since she is not supposed to possess any earthly authority. Instead she has in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, which speaks of her seducing power. Her victory is gained not by any direct authority, but through her seductive influence.

A metal was once struck by the pope in which a woman was holding in her hand a golden cup; and the caption read: “She sits upon the universe”! Unconsciously, the Roman Church acknowledges herself as that woman.

17.5 “And upon her forehead a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great”—She is a mystery, and yet this mystery is written on her forehead for everyone to read. This implies that whoever has an eye can perceive the meaning of this mystery.

God recognized Jerusalem as the center of worship (religious) as well as the center of earthly dominion (political). The error of the Roman Church is to presume that God has established her in lieu of Jerusalem, thus making herself both a religious and political center. What Jerusalem is rightfully to be in the millennial kingdom is what the Roman Church has today already assumed. Jerusalem has suffered so much, even after 430 years in slavery to Egypt!

“The mother of the harlots”—Being herself the great harlot, all that come out of this woman are harlots. These are the state churches, since their institutional systems are similar to that of Rome. Any church group that is united with the world is a small harlot. (For example, membership is not based on regeneration, but is granted to any who pledge to give support financially; also, the qualification for taking communion or the Lord’s Supper is membership instead of salvation; and so forth).

“Mother . . . of the abominations of the earth”—Abominations in Old Testament times always pointed to idols (see Deut. 7.25,26). The Roman Church is known for her idol-worshiping. She worships Mary, angels, apostles, saints, and so forth. Her split with Constantinople was over this matter of her idol-worshiping.

"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold [that is] on them, nor take unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it [is] an abomination to the LORD thy God. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it [is] a cursed thing" (Deut. 7.25,26).

17.6 This verse tells us what this woman did prior to what she will even more intensely and cruelly do in the future. Notice carefully that this verse does not say that the woman herself shed the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus; it merely states that she was “drunken with [their] blood”: The Roman Church never slays people with her own hands, she instead uses the authority of the Roman state to kill. Whereas she is the instigator, it is the Roman state that directly persecutes the Christians.
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration" (Rev. 17.6).

She will martyr Christians in the Tribulation.

The word “saints” here includes also the Jews, for in the future not only those who have the testimony of Jesus but also those who are Jews will suffer persecution from the hand of the Roman Church.
[quote]I believe that John Marveled because he was shocked as you are.John is surprised because the persecution of Christians comes from a people who profess to believe in Christ. How can he not wonder with a great wonder? It is not so surprising a thing to me since it has already occurred in past centuries. Did I burst your bubble?

It should be noted that 17.1-6 records the vision John saw; 17.7 begins the interpretation given by the angel. Consequently, the section found in 17.7-18 should be taken literally.

17.7 The angel is going to tell John the mystery of the seven heads and ten horns.

"And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns" (Rev. 17.7).

17.8 The angel explains to John that the beast he saw has four stages of history; namely, the beast (1) was, (2) is not, (3) is about to come out of the abyss, and (4) will go into perdition.

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17.8).

In the book of Revelation this beast, as has been said, represents Antichrist as well as the Roman Empire. In this connection, though, it points to a man, not to a state. The reasons for this view are as follows:

(1) This beast “was”—How then can we say that the Roman Empire once existed earlier prior to the time of John?
(2) The beast “is not”—Yet neither can we say that the Roman Empire did not exist at John’s time.
(3) The beast “is about to come up out of the abyss”—Abyss is the place where the spirits are imprisoned. How can we therefore say that the Roman Empire is about to come out of the abyss?
(4) The beast is “to go into perdition”—How, moreover, can we say that the political entity known as the Roman Empire will go into hell in the future?

Since, from this reasoning, this beast cannot apply to the Roman Empire, it must have reference to Antichrist. “Was” shows that before the time of John there was such a person who once lived on earth.

“Is not” indicates that at John’s time this man is not in the world since he must have died. The phrase “is not” is also used in Genesis 42.36-38 to indicate death.

“Is about to come up out of the abyss” reveals that he is now in the abyss but will come out of it, that is to say, he will be resuscitated.
“Go into perdition” discloses that he will not live forever on earth, neither can he rule forever, because his destiny will be that of being cast into the lake of fire (19.20, 20.10).

His being “was, and is not, and is about to come” is a clever counterfeiting of God “who is and who was and who is to come” (cf. 1.4,8; 4.8).

“And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder”—And this wonderment will eventually lead them to worship the beast (13.12). Only those whom God has chosen will be kept. All whose names have been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be preserved by God and kept from worshiping the beast.

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed" (Rev. 13.12).

17.9 is the same as 13.18; except that in 13.18 it says that the mind that has wisdom can count the number of the beast, whereas in 17.9 it states that the mind of wisdom is to know the heads of the beast.

"And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth" (Rev. 17.9).

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six" (Rev. 13.18).

The seven heads have double meaning; they point to (1) place, and (2) person.

(1) AS A PLACE, the seven heads are seven mountains. The heads of the earth are mountains, which also give the impression of strength or power (see Num. 21.20; Jer. 22.6; Amos 1.2, 9.3).

“Rome was in John’s age usually called the seven-hilled city”, said Dr. Woodworth. Many of the ancient Roman poets in their poetry proclaimed Rome as the seven-hilled city. Someone has noticed that for about five hundred years after the time of John, the Roman poets unanimously called Rome the seven-hilled city. There was once a Roman gold metal which showed a woman sitting on seven hills. Even the coin of Emperor Vespasian, as described by Captain Smyth ([I]Roman Coins, page 310), represented “Rome seated on seven hills; at the base Romulus and Remus suckled by the wolf; in front, the Tiber personified.” *

* Robert Govett, The Apocalypse Expounded. London: Chas. J. Thynne, 1920, p. 442.

The poet Horace once said, “The gods, who look with favour on the seven hills.” And another poet Tibullus said this: “Ye bulls, feed on herbage of the seven hills.”

Now the names of the seven hills are these: Aventine, Coelian, Esquiline, Capitoline, Palatine, Quirinal, and Viminal.

(2) AS TO PERSON, these seven mountains are also seven kings, for kings are heads of the peoples. While the heads of the earth (that is, the mountains) are contemporary and continuous, the heads of the peoples are temporary and successive to one another. This double concept of head as being both of the earth and of the people may be demonstrated in one particular passage of Isaiah: “The head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin” (7.8,9).

the beast is the devil.The dragon is Satan, the Devil, the Serpent. The first beast is the Antichrist. The second beast is the False Prophet. Don't get these mixed up.

God calls her a harlot in the book of HoseaGod calls religious Rome a harlot too in Revelation 17. God will be judge you by the way you treat Israel. All I ever hear from you is how much Israel is a harlot, completely overlooking the great harlot of religious Rome. Israel is being attacked on many fronts in the middle east.

How then would it be possible for 144000 Christians to keep there virginity? Though this may be impossible for you which is why God says it is better someone such as yourself be married, there are some people who can remain virgins to devote themselves to the Lord and prefer to do so, like Paul did. Don't be offended for it gives glory to God.

Luke 20.35 is talking about glorified bodies in heaven & 1 Cor. 7.7 is talking about special circumstances that were then because of the persecution"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Luke 20.35).

Christians may have a foretaste of this today for we have resurrection life now!

"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that" (1 Cor. 7.7).

Christians are persecuted today, and those who remain to be virgins like Paul, do not do so just because of persecution, but because it gives more time for study and to do the work for the Church. That is the reason.
Judging by 14.1 here, those whom God has given such a gift amount to only 144,000 (cf. Luke 20.35, 1 Cor. 7.7).

Think of these 144,000 as the most virgin of virgins as well as Christians who will be closest to Christ.

Matt. 19.10 Jesus' disciples then said to him, "Then it is better not to marry!"
11 "Not everyone can accept this statement," Jesus said. "Only those whom God helps. 12 Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made that way by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone who can, accept this statement."

You may not be able to accept these words of Christ.

Since Jesus is talking about virginity, this agrees with the 144,000 virgins in Rev. 14. Again, we see, "the Lamb standing" (Rev. 14.1).

Hmmm, naw.In response to when I said, "Surely, more than 144,000 Christians do not worship idols or follow evil doctrines," you said "naw". Why so hostile to Christians?

John does not se specifically the 144000 in 7:1-2, however, since he does se the Lamb and 144000 with him in14:1, of which the is no article before the number 144000.
The Greek rules are when there is no indefinite article then the word that seems to miss it is speaking of a specific and therefore refers to the 144000 in 7:5-8

John specifically saw and specifically heard since he said he saw and heard, then described what he saw and what he heard, but we have been over this several times. I quoted John seeing. Why then read more into what you think he didn't see? Would it not be to promote your false teaching? Indeed. Don't let your petty self get the better of you. The article is found in KJV, RSV and ASV as was shown, so you are going against the best translations, and you are repeating yourself when the evidence pointed against your idea. The burden of the proof then is on you to show otherwise.

Your posting style is a problem because it is sinning bearing false witness. You make it difficult for people to know what you underline is your idea or if you are quoting me:

Rev. 12:5-10 is represented as the... right next to a quote of mine that you underlined... Rev. 12.5-10 does not refer to the first seal...To which I had responded at length to show that you were wrong. Please review what was said as I see you did not respond to it, but quoted yourself as though it was me, which I found to be discourteous and sloppy.

That is what the first seal is. You said "That is what the first seal is" in response to my saying "Christ sitting on the white horse with a bow that has shot an arrow giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross". This happened almost 2000 years ago. But then you [B]contradicted yourself, saying "I am referring this to when the Messiah shall be cut off in the last week in Daniels seventy weeks as told in Dan. 9:25-27".

Since in Dan. 9.25-27, Christ has not returned yet, it is not the Messiah that is cut off, but Israel, for it says "He [Antichrist] will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. Then as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the end that has been decreed is poured out on this defiler" (v.27).

You are accusing Jesus of causing desecration and terrible deeds. I thought I was talking to a Christian before who just had some false teachings that he needed to be delivered from which I was trying to help you. Now I realize I am talking to someone who is pretending to be a Christian, what the Bible calls the "tares" who try to look like the saved wheat or try to impersonate us. Because of this pretending, I will have to remove you from the forums in the good conscience.
[quote]The first four seals span from the Crucifixion to the reign of the anti-christ and the false prophet. Rev 12 spans from the birth of Israel to this present day.The fifth seal and the sixth seal also precede the Antichrist reign in the 7 year Tribulation, for the 6th seal leads up to first rapture at Rev. 7.9, and first rapture causes the reaction of Satan because he knows his time is short. Then you say the events to follow in Rev. 12ff already happened. How strange! Your ordering is all a mess. Talking to you further to help you will serve no further purpose, for your ideas are not by the Holy Spirit. Spend the time to understand what is said here.

Genesis 1 speaks of eternity past, so it is reasonable to consider most of Revelation yet to be fulfilled in the future, and certainly not later events happening before former events in the book.

I see the sixth seal being part of the sixth bowl. My theory is that I believe it is possible for these two witnesses to be responsible for the seven bowls that God pours out on the earth.The premise for this is that these two witnesses are in the same time span or sixth trumpet as the four angels who have been bound at the great river Euphrates in verse 9:14which coincide with the sixth bowl. Also, we don’t read of the Judgment bowls in this great sign of this vision. Therefore I believe the bowls fit together into the sixth and seventh trumpet.
The sixth seal happens before the Tribulation, and we are definitely in the 6th seal now, which happens before the first trumpet of the start of the Tribulation. The bowls of the 7th trumpet are in the last 24 months of the Tribulation. The Two Witnesses are involved in the bowls because they will be killed by Satan's armies in the intensity of the bowls.

You had said Rev. 12-19 has already occurred up to today, while saying some of these events are yet to occur. This sounds like confusion. This is a contradiction and lets you pick and choose according to your flesh.

Since the Two Witnesses are going to be around for 1260 days, this will span the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets of 42 months of which the 7 bowls are poured out from the 7th trumpet. The bowls are part of this vision of John. The bowls are poured out from the 7th trumpet. This is consistent with the 7 trumpets being blown from the 6th seal.

In all sincerity, I find most of what you say to be wrong, and is not edifying to people that want to go deeper.

[Churchwork]

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space" (Rev. 17.10).

Some people interpret the seven kings as constituting seven forms of government. Such elucidation is against the rules of scriptural interpretation, as is seen in the following observations:

(1) The seven kings being already the angel’s own explanation, they cannot be expounded in any other way.

(2) The Bible never uses a king to represent politics. Even classical writers do not employ such symbolism.

(3) The concept of a king is itself already the symbol of a form of government (he may represent either an absolute or a constitutional form of monarchy). How then can these kings stand for other forms of government?

(4) In spite of the finding by some of seven different forms of Roman government, the seven kings alluded to here succeed one another, whereas the seven forms of Roman government are not continuous but are intermittent.

(5) If the seven kings point to seven forms of government, what will the ten kings represent? Will they not stand for another ten forms of government? If so, Roman political history would have required 17 forms of government.

(6) 17.9 speaks of the woman sitting upon seven mountains. Each of the seven is a mountain; not that some are mountains and some are not. Similarly, therefore, the seven kings must all be kings.

(7) “Head” in the Scripture always has reference to person. The four heads mentioned in Daniel 7.6 represent four kings, not four forms of government. Why, then, should the seven kings in Revelation represent seven forms of government?

(8) If the kings have reference to various forms of government, then that of “Christian” emperors (such as Constantine the Great) must also be reckoned as numbering among the forms of government. But according to 12.3 the seven heads are located upon the dragon and hence all these heads belong to Satan. Can we say Christianity too belongs to Satan?

Yet some critics counter respond by saying that Rome had twelve caesars, with Domitian at the time of John already being the twelfth caesar. How can we therefore say that Rome has only seven kings? We may answer this by asking why it is that there are only seven specific churches cited in chapters 2 and 3? Obviously, the seven churches are chosen representatively. The same, too, in the matter of the seven kings.

Even so, some may still further argue that even if the seven kings may perhaps be selected on a representative basis, how is anyone to know which seven out of the twelve caesars are to be chosen? Our answer is that we may find them out by means of the following deductions:

(1) 13.1 states: “And upon his heads names of blasphemy”; since the seven heads all have names of blasphemy, these seven kings must be self-styled gods, demanding worship.

(2) The word “fallen” in 17.10 carries with it the idea of violent death (see 2 Sam. 1.19,25,27). All seven kings do indeed meet with violent death: Julius Caesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero—these five kings all assumed deity for themselves; they called for their people to worship them as gods; and all five died unnaturally, either by being murdered or by committing suicide.

Domitian was the sixth one. He was present during the time of John. He too deified himself, and was later murdered.

The seventh one is he who is yet to come. The Bible does not tell us how far apart time-wise the seventh is from the sixth; only that the seventh one will continue a little while (17.10) and later be killed (17.10; 13.3,14).

The interval between the sixth and the seventh one is filled by the reign of religious Rome. From the first to the sixth, also during the seventh and the eighth, political Rome is in power. But now it is currently religious Rome in place of political Rome. Religious Rome has been trying to affect peoples' conscience positively and negatively.

After Zedekiah was taken captive into Babylon there was no king in Israel. A long interval passed before Christ was born. Likewise, after the destruction of Rome there will be an interval before Antichrist appears.

The whole world will be well prepared for the arrival of Antichrist. Hence, as soon as he appears on the scene he will be able to do much during the three and a half years. The seventh king will have already prepared for the eighth one.

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (Rev. 17.11).


17.11 This verse should be read together with 17.8, for just as 17.8 speaks of the four historical stages of the beast so does 17.11.

According to 17.11 the four stages of the beast’s history are denominated as (1) “was”, (2) “is not”, (3) “is of the seven”, and (4) “goeth into perdition”.

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17.8).

Since (1), (2) and (4) in 17.11 coincide with (1), (2) and (4) in 17.8, quite naturally (3) in 17.11 must also agree with (3) in 17.8, "out of the pit". Thus, the beast must come out of the abyss.

Because he is said to be an eighth yet is also of the seven and because he comes out of the abyss, he must needs be one of the seven who is raised from death to be the eighth. Which one of the seven will he be?

(1) He cannot be the seventh since the seventh has yet to come to the world (17.10), whereas the beast has already been in the world before (17.8).

(2) He cannot be the sixth because the sixth was on earth when John lived, but this beast “is not” at the time of John (17.11).
Since he is neither the seventh nor the sixth, he must be one of the five. But which of the five is he? From 13.18 we recognize that he must be Nero.

The seventh is but a forerunner of Antichrist. The eighth is to use the body of the seventh. Eight is the number of resurrection; yet his resurrection is to be quite different from that of the Lord Jesus. For the Lord is himself resurrected, but the eighth is to be the reanimation of a corpse with another soul.

This is not to be construed as teaching reincarnation. The Bible does not teach reincarnation, nor did the author ever subscribe to such an heretical doctrine. The specific interpretation given here relative to Antichrist serves only as the exception which goes to prove the rule of no reincarnation—just as the image of the beast having breath and the ability to speak (see 13.14,15 above) is the exception which proves the rule of no image having breath or speaking.

While the Lord Jesus was on earth the Jews chose a living caesar rather than the living Christ. After Christ was resurrected, people still refused to accept Him. The future Antichrist will be a resurrected caesar, and again people will receive him instead of the risen Christ.
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast" (Rev. 17.12).

17.12 The seven heads are seven kings, but so are the ten horns ten kings. Yet the heads and the horns are different.

(1) A horn is on the head; therefore, it is relatively smaller than the head. A head represents the entire reign of Rome while a horn stands for a subordinate king of Rome (such as a tetrarch or prince).

(2) There can be only one head at a time, and these heads succeed one another in reigning; but the ten horns can be ten subordinate kings ruling contemporaneously.

(3) Of the seven heads, one is yet to come; but of the ten horns, all are yet to come - the 10 toes.

These horns or kings had received no kingdom as yet while John was living.

The ten kings shall receive authority simultaneously with the eighth.

Some suggest that the ten kings are a reference to ten kingdoms. But such an interpretation is not valid for the following reasons:

(1) Ten kings is the explanation of the angel, so there should be no further interpretation.

(2) 17.12 and 17.17 will not make sense if these ten kings are re-interpreted as being ten kingdoms.

(3) Since the beast is a person, the ten kings must likewise be persons.

These ten kings are different from the kings of the earth because:

(1) The kings of the earth exist prior to and also at the time of the ten kings.

(2) The kings of the earth commit fornication with the great harlot, but the ten kings have never been united with the great harlot. On the contrary, they later on destroy her (17.16).

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast" (Rev. 17.13).

17.13 The beast cannot refer to the pope, for never have ten kings ever given their power to a pope. Nor can the beast be an allusion to any of the former Roman emperors, since, again, no ten kings have ever surrendered their power to any former Roman emperor. The beast is Antichrist. The ten kings give their power to the beast because:

(1) they observe that the beast is raised from death, and thus consider him a superman.

(2) they are enticed by the evil spirit. The Holy Spirit descends from heaven after the death and resurrection of Christ and so the church is formed. Now as a counterfeit, the evil spirit—after the appearing of Antichrist through some kind of resurrection—moves the ten kings to yield their power to the beast.

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17.14).

17.14 According to the order of narration 17.14 precedes 17.16; but according to the order of fact the event of 17.16 happens before that of 17.14.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire" (Rev. 17.16).

In 19.11-21 we have a detailed description of the war mentioned in 17.14, for the war is actually fought at that time. Though many there will be of those who follow the Lamb, the victory is gained by the Lamb himself. By the sharp sword which proceeds from His mouth the Lamb shall overcome His enemies and tread them under His feet. He overcomes His enemies, not by power but by authority. He overcomes because He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. This is authority, not power.

Those who accompany the Lamb are marked as having three qualifications—(1) called, (2) chosen, and (3) faithful. They stand in contrast to the great harvest. To follow the Lamb, these must be called. God calls us according to His own determinate will. To be chosen usually precedes a being called, but here it is mentioned after the matter of being called. Hence it refers to a being chosen from among the believers (“Many are called, but few chosen,” says the Lord—Matt. 22.14). Such therefore is the order. Psalm 89.19f. may be used to illustrate the meaning here. The children of Israel have already been chosen by God, yet David is further chosen out of the children of Israel. All who are called are saved, but only those who are after God’s own heart are the overcomers.

Those who are saved form one class, and those who overcome form another class. Whoever follows the Lamb needs to be not only called and chosen but also faithful, which means being mindful of the Lord alone and nothing of self.

"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Rev. 17.15).

17.15 This verse explains the significance of the waters. Since the harlot is a mystery, and therefore symbolic in meaning and not to be interpreted literally, so the waters too must be “mysterious”, symbolic, and not subject to literal interpretation. Were we to have Christ as our full satisfaction we would never sit upon many waters. To broaden the fellowship of the saints by having open intercourse with the world is to sit upon many waters.

This woman in the book of Revelation sits on three places:

(1) upon the beast (17.3), which is to say, she is united with Rome;

(2) upon seven mountains (17.9), which means she makes Rome her center; and

(3) upon many waters (17.15), indicating that her influence extends to the entire world.

Why is she sometimes called “harlot” and sometimes “woman”? The term woman is used in relation to Rome, and the term harlot, in relation to Christ—woman, politically speaking; but harlot, religiously speaking.

17.16 The ten horns and the beast hate the harlot, not the woman. For the woman (the city of Rome, cf. 17.18) is their kingdom. They hate the harlot because she is at least in name linked with Christ.

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Rev. 17.18).

The beast in this book points both to Rome and to Antichrist. We have already learned that Antichrist will be Nero resurrected. Now if he fiercely persecuted Christians once before, would he ever permit Rome to belong to Christ upon his coming back? The first act he performs, therefore, will be the destroying of the harlot - RCC.

The reasons for the hatred of the world as personified by Nero are as follows:

(1) On the one hand, because the conduct of the harlot is either too presumptuous or too wicked. Though their conscience is not enlightened by God, the nations of the world cannot tolerate the practices of the Roman Church, such as, that after the bread is blessed by the priest it somehow is transubstantiated into the body of the Lord, that only the priests can read the Bible, that confession must be made to the priests, and that the inquisition and the selling of indulgences flourish. Yet there are many other mean and treacherous acts practiced by her which even the nations cannot stand.

(2) On the other hand, because of her good, since in the Roman Church there can yet be found such truths taught as the Trinity, Jesus the Son of God, the Virgin Birth, the belief in the Lord’s death, resurrection and ascension, and so forth. She still belongs to Christ in name, and therefore the nations hate her.

The ways the world shall treat the Roman Church are:

(1) make her desolate—probably the Vatican where the pope resides will become a desolate place;

(2) make her naked—which, taken literally, may mean the loss of material things, or taken spiritually, may mean the disclosure of her secrets;

(3) eat her flesh—which, spiritually applied, perhaps means the slaying of her great men or the killing of Roman Catholics in general; and
(4) burn her utterly with fire—There is no difficulty in this being taken literally.

The kings of the earth, however, are the Roman Church’s bosom friends. Yet, when they see her calamity they only bemoan her but do not help her (18.9,10). Though the seventh king is also her friend, he will nonetheless be there only temporarily (17.10), so neither is he of any help. Antichrist becomes her great enemy.

"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (Rev. 17.17).

17.17 The event in this verse probably happens after the great harlot is destroyed. At that time it would appear that the kingdom of Antichrist has come.

17.18 The woman here speaks of Rome, since in John’s time only Rome was the great city which reigned over the kings of the earth.

[Churchwork]

What I found most interesting in all of this is that people are looking for the revived Rome of 7 nations in a European Union and 10 earthly kings (horns the toes). That's not what is going to happen. It's actually one large nation centered from Rome, though not so large as to encompass the whole world, but certainly centered around the Mediterranian.

The 7 heads are not 7 nations nor even 7 countries of a European Union. The 7 heads point to a place which is centered at Rome (seven-hilled city) which will be the head of revived Rome, though its influence will extend to the whole world; but its location will be just the part around the Mediterranian. And the 7 heads are 7 kings, which were discussed as consecutive kings. The 7th will be the forerunner to the 8th which is the Antichrist; even the 8th is of the seven and the 7th.

And the 10 kings are what? They cannot be kings of the earth as discussed. The only possibility is they are are persons who are heads of financial entities like the G-10 bankers meetings. I can think of no better candidate. They will give their financial power over to the Antichrist, when 3 of those kings break off to be replaced by the Antichrist.

When Jesus Christ returns in Person, He will:
1) put Satan into the pit for 1000 years (to be released at the end of the 1000 years for a short while),
2) throw the Antichrist and False Prophet into hell immediately,
3) finalize the destruction of religious Rome that the Antichrist did away in the first half of the Tribulation,
4) destroy political Rome,
5) finish off those who take the mark of the beast,
6) get rid of filthy lucre and mammon of unrighteousness,
7) set Himself up in Jerusalem to rule the nations with His overcomer believers, and
8) give Israel her glory as the center of all nations.