Churchwork
07-10-2006, 03:35 AM
In regards to the 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm), Xenolan at an atheist/agnostic site, says...
No, you're the one who can't find anything wrong with it. The rest of us have pointed out its circular arguments and logical fallacies time and time again. But since your belief is more important to you than facts, you can cheerfully ignore anything that doesn't fit within your pre-defined little world-view.
Nothing you have said points out any problem with the Proof. If you had you could show it, someone would know about it, rather than just say it. The facts are you can't find fault with it. Where is this problem? You don't say. Christians do not have a world view, for we have a spiritual view given by revelation from God through regeneration of the spirit and a renewed mind possessing the mind of God-the Holy Spirit. We know the god of this world is Satan, so world views are all wrong without God's plan in consideration and in light of the Proof of God founded on Romans 1.20.
If that argument were so great, don't you think that the established Church would be flaunting it? Wouldn't the Pope be preaching it, if it were such ironclad proof? I say again - go talk to a priest, minister, or pastor, someone who makes their livelihood out of studying the Bible. I will be flabbergasted if you can find even ONE clergyman who agrees with it.
The established Church does accept this Proof. The Pope is not of the established Church, nor do I know or care about what their established position is on Rom. 1.20. The Pope belongs to religious Rome that God will destroy as told in Rev. 17. She teaches various heresies such as sinless Mary, intermediary priesthood and popery, purgatory, and adding books to the 66 books of the Bible.
Don't go talk to religious Rome priests. They teach that women can not be apostles. They are full of false teachings, because like Pagan religions, they need their goddess. They have two pyramids at the Vatican pointing to each other representing sex: the woman's chalice and the man's blade. They don't even have apostles, did you know? There is no clergy in the Church. What you are asking is for the opinion of one who violates some law as a credible witness. You don't go to the Mafia to get a testimony of truth, for they will just give you their selfish agenda as religious Rome promotes their system. Don't avoid the matter at hand, but deal specifically with the Proof. This knowledge is for all mankind, not just those in a pastoral system. You should be able to discuss this with any Christian, for it is personal, specific. All Christians are saints.
All Christians study the Word of God. I myself being an Apostle, have authority to tell you this truth in agreement with other Apostles and members of the body of Christ. Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in agreement there is authority in the Church. Your lack is the inability to deal specifically with the Proof itself in any way whatsoever, and by this means, you keep yourself separated from God. Call it laziness, selfishness, belligerency. It is your independency from God to shut your mind down in passivity to be controlled by the evil spirit.
I am sure it would upset you if clergymen of religious Rome would agree, but don't worry, for Christians don't seek their approval for they are married to the world. Rev. 14.8 says they make drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of their fornications. Do you really want to seek their judgment when they are already wrong in so many things? That would be illogical.
Yes, and as I recall, you were limited to that number of posts because you found it necessary to slap threads all over the MB completely heedless of which forum they belonged in. You remind me of someone who comes into a party, vomits all over the living room, and then gets petulant because the host directs you to the toilet.
The posts I posted were most appropriate and on topic. If it was not the case you could show otherwise. Your problem is allegations, but no proof. Christians are always so falsely accused of things that are not true, then martyred. That's the difference between Christians and yourself. We back up what we do and say, all you have is self-declarations.
Praise the Lord for this discernment!
If you can't get something as simple as the forum rules straight, even after multiple warnings, why should we accept your judgment on anything? Bear in mind that any other MB would probably have simply kicked you out.
Since no problems occurred, the reason for the hostility must be because of a Fahrenheit 451 attitude in place to censor the truth at a place that is hostile to Jesus Christ. Forum owners and mods have all their various reasons for banning and censoring. Atheist sites ban because their conscience is convicted in the presence of men of God. Atheists and agnostics are jealous of the joy in the Spirit Christians have. Religious Rome that you fall back on also censor because when Christians speak against their false teachings, we are martyred on the Internet. That's the way of the world and their world view, and your world view. Sure, they come up with lame excuses as you have tried to fabricate, but at the end of the day there are the tares who try to look like the saved wheat and the dogs-those outside the kingdom of heaven and unsaved. Thank goodness there is a hell to deal with such hostility and hatred against God's children.
You know nothing about me personally, not even my real name! Who are you to judge me? Your Lord and Savior said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I can see why you would consider my opinion invalid, as I'm not in your club, but I would have thought you would value the teachings of Jesus Christ. Can't even follow your own rules, can you? What a shameless hypocrite you are.
Knowing you personally is not necessary to know you are hostile to Jesus Christ and call Him a liar when you refuse salvation. You have said something you truly believe. That is a choice you are allowed to make. Jesus even said if you are not for Him, you are against Him. I do not judge you, God judges you, and you condemn yourself, so don't blame me for the choice you have made to go to hell. When you point to yourself that people have to get to know you first, is just you pointing to yourself as the center. This is selfish. You say Jesus is not God, so John 3.18 says you are condemned already. I believe God. I don't believe you. Christians are just reading Scripture back to you according to God's will. The truth will set you free. Check the evil spirit's accusation in your spirit when you said you thought I would have valued the teachings of Christ. Of course I do, so why suggest otherwise? Do you see how you are trying to be cunning, which is unethical? It is a sin to bear false witness. Your are not in the body of Christ because you don't want to be. It is not a club, but we are one with Christ, the corporate Christ. Be honest with yourself that you are hell bound and that is what you want. Just be intellectually honest with yourself that is what you want. Don't fabricate false reasons to reject Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Since you are made in the image of God with God-consciousness, you know Jesus is God, but just accept the fact that you refuse His loving atonement in spilling His precious blood for you on the cross because you want to go to hell. So go there and stop finding excuses about it. Just go. I will still pray for you to repent to the cross for even one lost soul is a tragedy.
I'll grant that you're fairly good at regurgitating what you read in the Bible, but any fool can do that and many of them do. So far you've proven an excellent ventriloquist's dummy, and been just as convincing.
We are fools in Christ and have consciences quicked by the Holy Spirit of truth. God uses foolish things to tear down towers people prop up for themselves in their minds. You will need to lose your soul first before you can gain it. See how Satan works in your spirit, by accusing those who agree with the truth as being dummies and ventriloquists. But is this not what you are doing by the spirit in your spirit when you say there is fault with the 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible, yet you still don't show it. You claim there is some error but you never say what it is. Repeating yourself like a mindless zombie is hardly evidence. You claim the answer is off in some far distant land like some secret treasure of truth to there being no God. Thank goodness in a court of law such lack of evidence would not even allow the case to be admissible.
Furthermore, I'd like to point out that Christians can't even agree amongst themselves what God's word actually is. Get your own stories straight before trying to convince the rest of us. Remember the one about the splinter in your neighbor's eye as opposed to the plank in your own?
Just as there is every kind of unregenerate soul from Nero and Hitler all the way to the most apparently good people unsaved, so there is every kind of Christian with varying kinds of interpretations of God. But remember, God said we shall know them by their fruit. If the teaching is so aberrant, then it it is likely the person is not saved. The agreement in the Word of God by spiritual Christians is in harmony. Naturally carnal Christians would need deliverance from untruths. God says He will reward the overcomer believers (Rev. 2 & 3) for abiding in these truths and works. Those who receive the reward of reigning during the millennium are not all Christians, but only those overcomer believers such as the 5 wise virgins. The 5 unwise virgins are left out of the marriage feast (Matt. 24.1-12) even though they are saved. So do you see how you have an excuse for everything? Satan is the great blamer not caring for the truth. He accuses because he is unhappy just like you. He does not know love, just like you. You do no less, not seeing clearly and are without the fruit of the Spirit. Towards each other, Christians take out the plank in our own eye before judging the splinter in the eyes of others. This is reasonable, yet you accuse this truth, without reason? This is your sin, it is the sin of the mindless false accuser emulating your father Satan, and so shall you be with him soon in hell. How truly sad for you.
I consider this ultimately demented and that of a dullard.
Yes, and how sad that this isn't enough to satisfy you. You are convinced that I will be consigned to an eternity of the most exquisite and painful torture that your diety can devise. Isn't that enough for you? Do you have to insult my intelligence as well?
Regarding hell, in your response, it is enough for God that you go to hell, so it is enough for me. Since you can't be with the saved in the new city and the new earth, if you choose never to be saved by the precious blood, then there is nothing better than keeping you away from God's sinless perfection in His sons and daughters. Thank God for this! This is His plan and His love for His own people. The reason God describes Hell so graphically is because He loves you and does not want you to go there, but surely, whatever Hell is going to be like, you won't truly know it until you enter into it, an eternal separation from God. Forever! Wow! You may hope that your soul be annihilated, but you will be resurrected for Hell. The reason for your unsalvation is not your intelligence or lack thereof, for God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34), which I did not accuse your lack of intelligence or headiness. Your unsalvation has to do with your dead conscience and a will that chooses to refuse God's love. You know yourself how dull a person you are. However, I do suggest you not be intellectually dishonest with yourself. Since you find no specific reason for your hatred for God and not believing Jesus when He said He is God, then just be honest with yourself that you are a bad person who wants to go to hell. So then go. Stop making excuses otherwise. What I have told you is not to insult you, for read my words, there is no insult, but pure truth to help lead you to the truth. I have told you the truth.
My prayers go out to you, that even you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, which means even you still can be saved. What a merciful and gracious God to be willing to save a sinner like you! I am saved. I was once like you, an unregenerate.
Praise the Lord!
No, you're the one who can't find anything wrong with it. The rest of us have pointed out its circular arguments and logical fallacies time and time again. But since your belief is more important to you than facts, you can cheerfully ignore anything that doesn't fit within your pre-defined little world-view.
Nothing you have said points out any problem with the Proof. If you had you could show it, someone would know about it, rather than just say it. The facts are you can't find fault with it. Where is this problem? You don't say. Christians do not have a world view, for we have a spiritual view given by revelation from God through regeneration of the spirit and a renewed mind possessing the mind of God-the Holy Spirit. We know the god of this world is Satan, so world views are all wrong without God's plan in consideration and in light of the Proof of God founded on Romans 1.20.
If that argument were so great, don't you think that the established Church would be flaunting it? Wouldn't the Pope be preaching it, if it were such ironclad proof? I say again - go talk to a priest, minister, or pastor, someone who makes their livelihood out of studying the Bible. I will be flabbergasted if you can find even ONE clergyman who agrees with it.
The established Church does accept this Proof. The Pope is not of the established Church, nor do I know or care about what their established position is on Rom. 1.20. The Pope belongs to religious Rome that God will destroy as told in Rev. 17. She teaches various heresies such as sinless Mary, intermediary priesthood and popery, purgatory, and adding books to the 66 books of the Bible.
Don't go talk to religious Rome priests. They teach that women can not be apostles. They are full of false teachings, because like Pagan religions, they need their goddess. They have two pyramids at the Vatican pointing to each other representing sex: the woman's chalice and the man's blade. They don't even have apostles, did you know? There is no clergy in the Church. What you are asking is for the opinion of one who violates some law as a credible witness. You don't go to the Mafia to get a testimony of truth, for they will just give you their selfish agenda as religious Rome promotes their system. Don't avoid the matter at hand, but deal specifically with the Proof. This knowledge is for all mankind, not just those in a pastoral system. You should be able to discuss this with any Christian, for it is personal, specific. All Christians are saints.
All Christians study the Word of God. I myself being an Apostle, have authority to tell you this truth in agreement with other Apostles and members of the body of Christ. Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in agreement there is authority in the Church. Your lack is the inability to deal specifically with the Proof itself in any way whatsoever, and by this means, you keep yourself separated from God. Call it laziness, selfishness, belligerency. It is your independency from God to shut your mind down in passivity to be controlled by the evil spirit.
I am sure it would upset you if clergymen of religious Rome would agree, but don't worry, for Christians don't seek their approval for they are married to the world. Rev. 14.8 says they make drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of their fornications. Do you really want to seek their judgment when they are already wrong in so many things? That would be illogical.
Yes, and as I recall, you were limited to that number of posts because you found it necessary to slap threads all over the MB completely heedless of which forum they belonged in. You remind me of someone who comes into a party, vomits all over the living room, and then gets petulant because the host directs you to the toilet.
The posts I posted were most appropriate and on topic. If it was not the case you could show otherwise. Your problem is allegations, but no proof. Christians are always so falsely accused of things that are not true, then martyred. That's the difference between Christians and yourself. We back up what we do and say, all you have is self-declarations.
Praise the Lord for this discernment!
If you can't get something as simple as the forum rules straight, even after multiple warnings, why should we accept your judgment on anything? Bear in mind that any other MB would probably have simply kicked you out.
Since no problems occurred, the reason for the hostility must be because of a Fahrenheit 451 attitude in place to censor the truth at a place that is hostile to Jesus Christ. Forum owners and mods have all their various reasons for banning and censoring. Atheist sites ban because their conscience is convicted in the presence of men of God. Atheists and agnostics are jealous of the joy in the Spirit Christians have. Religious Rome that you fall back on also censor because when Christians speak against their false teachings, we are martyred on the Internet. That's the way of the world and their world view, and your world view. Sure, they come up with lame excuses as you have tried to fabricate, but at the end of the day there are the tares who try to look like the saved wheat and the dogs-those outside the kingdom of heaven and unsaved. Thank goodness there is a hell to deal with such hostility and hatred against God's children.
You know nothing about me personally, not even my real name! Who are you to judge me? Your Lord and Savior said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I can see why you would consider my opinion invalid, as I'm not in your club, but I would have thought you would value the teachings of Jesus Christ. Can't even follow your own rules, can you? What a shameless hypocrite you are.
Knowing you personally is not necessary to know you are hostile to Jesus Christ and call Him a liar when you refuse salvation. You have said something you truly believe. That is a choice you are allowed to make. Jesus even said if you are not for Him, you are against Him. I do not judge you, God judges you, and you condemn yourself, so don't blame me for the choice you have made to go to hell. When you point to yourself that people have to get to know you first, is just you pointing to yourself as the center. This is selfish. You say Jesus is not God, so John 3.18 says you are condemned already. I believe God. I don't believe you. Christians are just reading Scripture back to you according to God's will. The truth will set you free. Check the evil spirit's accusation in your spirit when you said you thought I would have valued the teachings of Christ. Of course I do, so why suggest otherwise? Do you see how you are trying to be cunning, which is unethical? It is a sin to bear false witness. Your are not in the body of Christ because you don't want to be. It is not a club, but we are one with Christ, the corporate Christ. Be honest with yourself that you are hell bound and that is what you want. Just be intellectually honest with yourself that is what you want. Don't fabricate false reasons to reject Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Since you are made in the image of God with God-consciousness, you know Jesus is God, but just accept the fact that you refuse His loving atonement in spilling His precious blood for you on the cross because you want to go to hell. So go there and stop finding excuses about it. Just go. I will still pray for you to repent to the cross for even one lost soul is a tragedy.
I'll grant that you're fairly good at regurgitating what you read in the Bible, but any fool can do that and many of them do. So far you've proven an excellent ventriloquist's dummy, and been just as convincing.
We are fools in Christ and have consciences quicked by the Holy Spirit of truth. God uses foolish things to tear down towers people prop up for themselves in their minds. You will need to lose your soul first before you can gain it. See how Satan works in your spirit, by accusing those who agree with the truth as being dummies and ventriloquists. But is this not what you are doing by the spirit in your spirit when you say there is fault with the 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible, yet you still don't show it. You claim there is some error but you never say what it is. Repeating yourself like a mindless zombie is hardly evidence. You claim the answer is off in some far distant land like some secret treasure of truth to there being no God. Thank goodness in a court of law such lack of evidence would not even allow the case to be admissible.
Furthermore, I'd like to point out that Christians can't even agree amongst themselves what God's word actually is. Get your own stories straight before trying to convince the rest of us. Remember the one about the splinter in your neighbor's eye as opposed to the plank in your own?
Just as there is every kind of unregenerate soul from Nero and Hitler all the way to the most apparently good people unsaved, so there is every kind of Christian with varying kinds of interpretations of God. But remember, God said we shall know them by their fruit. If the teaching is so aberrant, then it it is likely the person is not saved. The agreement in the Word of God by spiritual Christians is in harmony. Naturally carnal Christians would need deliverance from untruths. God says He will reward the overcomer believers (Rev. 2 & 3) for abiding in these truths and works. Those who receive the reward of reigning during the millennium are not all Christians, but only those overcomer believers such as the 5 wise virgins. The 5 unwise virgins are left out of the marriage feast (Matt. 24.1-12) even though they are saved. So do you see how you have an excuse for everything? Satan is the great blamer not caring for the truth. He accuses because he is unhappy just like you. He does not know love, just like you. You do no less, not seeing clearly and are without the fruit of the Spirit. Towards each other, Christians take out the plank in our own eye before judging the splinter in the eyes of others. This is reasonable, yet you accuse this truth, without reason? This is your sin, it is the sin of the mindless false accuser emulating your father Satan, and so shall you be with him soon in hell. How truly sad for you.
I consider this ultimately demented and that of a dullard.
Yes, and how sad that this isn't enough to satisfy you. You are convinced that I will be consigned to an eternity of the most exquisite and painful torture that your diety can devise. Isn't that enough for you? Do you have to insult my intelligence as well?
Regarding hell, in your response, it is enough for God that you go to hell, so it is enough for me. Since you can't be with the saved in the new city and the new earth, if you choose never to be saved by the precious blood, then there is nothing better than keeping you away from God's sinless perfection in His sons and daughters. Thank God for this! This is His plan and His love for His own people. The reason God describes Hell so graphically is because He loves you and does not want you to go there, but surely, whatever Hell is going to be like, you won't truly know it until you enter into it, an eternal separation from God. Forever! Wow! You may hope that your soul be annihilated, but you will be resurrected for Hell. The reason for your unsalvation is not your intelligence or lack thereof, for God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34), which I did not accuse your lack of intelligence or headiness. Your unsalvation has to do with your dead conscience and a will that chooses to refuse God's love. You know yourself how dull a person you are. However, I do suggest you not be intellectually dishonest with yourself. Since you find no specific reason for your hatred for God and not believing Jesus when He said He is God, then just be honest with yourself that you are a bad person who wants to go to hell. So then go. Stop making excuses otherwise. What I have told you is not to insult you, for read my words, there is no insult, but pure truth to help lead you to the truth. I have told you the truth.
My prayers go out to you, that even you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, which means even you still can be saved. What a merciful and gracious God to be willing to save a sinner like you! I am saved. I was once like you, an unregenerate.
Praise the Lord!