Popularity of Historicism

[Nottheworld]

Why do you suppose the church never saw the pre-trib rapture doctrine before Darby's pen? If you believe it did check with RaptureReady.com and Thomas Ice Pre-trib Rapture Center sites and review the historical record of that doctrine in the church they present. Nobody has bigger axes to grind than those folks do.

Clement of Rome 68 or 97 AD
In Clement's First Epistle to the Corinthians: "Let us take (for instance) Enoch...Noah...and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him."

Ephraem the Syrian (4th century AD) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord's return as being imminent in his sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World." He stated, "All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306 A.D.—373 A.D), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church."

The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

Victorinus (Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pretrib reference: "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. 'And every mountain and the islands removed from their places' intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution."

Considering first rapture according to readiness is a deeper truth (Luke 21.36; Rev. 3.10, 12.5)-as proven-you wouldn't expect a lot of early church fathers to get it. It is usually only understood and appreciated by spiritual Christians. The quotes posttribers use to argue the church fathers only taught posttrib rapture usually only deal with the fact of His return and the last trumpet resurrection. But in no way does this preclude their awareness of a first rapture of an advanced party of overcomer believers who keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful. Since Matthew (24.42), Mark (13.32), Luke (21.36), Paul (1 Cor. 15.23) and John (Rev. 3.10, 6.9-11, 7.9, 11.15, 12.5, 14.1-5) all taught a first rapture according to readiness, should we not accept it?

[PeteWaldo]

It depends.

It does?

Which verse are you referring to?

How many temples of God are there?
I count the one that Jesus rebuilt in 3 days, just as He promised, composed of regenerate believers. The corporate body of Christ, as well as our own bodies serving as temples of the Holy Spirit.

What temple of God have you got in mind?

[Nottheworld]

Jesus will be in the Temple in Jerusalem when He reigns on Earth. During the millennial kingdom the New Jerusalem above can't come down all the way because the Temple still remains on earth, but after the 1000 years there is no need for a Temple, because God and the Lamb will be the temple in the center of the New City. By the way the Temple in the OT represents our spirit, soul and body as the Holy of Holies, the Holy Place and the Outer Court.

[PeteWaldo]

"Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism, Futurism and Idealism"
Hence, historicism includes your view: amillennialism. I know preterism is not called historicism in some circles, but I throw it in anyway,.....

But that is what blinded you to the original post.
I described a 20th century church split into basically 2 groups.
Partial preterists (like most Presbyterians, Roman Catholic and Orthodox who believe that virtually all of Revelation after chapter 3 was fulfilled in the first century)
And futurists such as yourself who believe that virtually none of it will be fulfilled until some future someday.
And that each must consider the other to be virtually 100% in error, yet each is as adamant as the other, that the other is in error.
Stunningly both must necessarily believe that it is an impossibility that Mohammed could be the false prophet of Revelation, because of the eschatology they hold.

Preposterously, my continuous historic view that places Islam and Mohammed right in the middle of end-time prophecy as the beast and the false prophet, using sound hermeneutic principles, has been lumped in with Roman Catholics of all people, who are taught that antichrist Muslims worship the same God as Christians. Indeed a religion that shares many parallels with Islam.

....... because they treat the book of Revelation mostly fulfilled.

[PeteWaldo]

Both censor the voices of others through murder, rather than through defense of their doctrines, and both have murdered millions as a result.

Whether the Papal murder of Jews and Christian reformers while teaching that non-Catholics are headed to hell (though some wishfully suggest that the most recent catechism would seem to contradict this Roman Church tradition).
When I was a kid the Roman Church taught that it was a mortal sin for a Roman Catholic to attend any other Christian church.

Just like the Islamic 1400 year slaughter of Christians and Jews, and the censorship of Bibles and Christian materials in Islamic countries, along with the destruction of synagogues and churches.
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=...2=sb-top&sao=1
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Death penalty for apostasy

http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch67.html

"But the reader has the right to know something of the dangers through which it has pleased God to make me pass.

Rome is the same today as she was when she burned John Huss and Wishart, and when she caused 70,000 Protestants to be slaughtered in France, and 100,000 to be exterminated in Piedmont in Italy.

On the 31st of December, 1869, I forced the Rt. Rev. Bishop Foley, of Chicago, to swear before the civil court, at Kankakee, that the following sentence was an exact translation of the doctrine of the Church of Rome as taught today in all the Roman Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities, through the "Summa Theologica" of Thomas Aquinas (vol. iv. p. 90). "Though heretics must not be tolerated because they deserve it, we must bear with them till, by a second admonition, they may be brought back to the faith of the church. But those who, after a second admonition, remain obstinate to their errors, must not only be excommunicated, but they must be delivered to the secular power to be exterminated."
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index...howtopic=95169

It is on account of this law of the Church of Rome, which is today in full force, as it was promulgated for the first time, that not less than thirty public attempts have been made to kill me since my conversion."
.............................

Whether in Saudi Arabia today, the Christian beheading capital of the world, or the same over the last 1400 years.
The penalty for turning away from Islam is death.
Even in Canada (video): http://www.tangle.com/view_video?vie...dba53d454cb1ed

Similar to the RCC, in Islam the traditional waiting period during which a person is allowed to "repent", and return to Islam, is 3 days in jail.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm

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Both believe we enter our faiths as infants

The Roman Church teaches that one becomes a Christian by having a Priest sprinkle "holy water" on one's head, though there is no confirmation of this in scripture.

Islam teaches that one is a Muslim at birth.
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Lying for God

From 25 year late 19th century priest Charles Chiniquy quoting Roman doctrine:

"It is often more to the glory of God and the good of our neighbor to cover the faith than to confess it; for example, if concealed among heretics, you may accomplish a greater amount of good; or if, by declaring our religion, more of evil would follow - for example, great trouble, death, the hostility of a tyrant." (liguori, "Theologia Moralis, t. ii n. 14, p 117 Mechlin, 1845.)

This Roman church view of lying, as if for God's benefit, is the very same as the Mohammedan concept of "taqiyyah", or lying in the way of Allah - Islamic subterfuge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

That Roman view is exposed in God's Word:

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

But that would not be slanderous reporting of the Roman "church".
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Prayers of the heathen.

The Word of God instructs in the matter of prayer:

1Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

This describes a relationship and constant communication with God through the Holy Spirit, not vain ritual.


Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Roman Catholicism is steeped in repetitive prayer, whether rosary, prayers ordered by a confessor, etc. etc..

For Mohammedans, the Hadith tells us that earlier Muslims were instructed to pray 50 times a day. Mohammed later reduced this to a more manageable 5 times per day after his alleged flight on a horse.

From "Infidel" Ali explains part of salat, "You say Praise be to Allah thirty-three times; God forgive me thirty-three times; Allah is great thirty-three times; and then, if you choose, you may also say Gratitude to Allah."
That's a total of 495 repetitions of just those first three prayers - every day - because Muslims are commanded to perform salat fives times a day.

Muslim prayer beads

Rosary beads
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Idol Worship

Exd 20:4 THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE any graven image, or ANY LIKENESS [OF ANY THING] THAT [IS] IN HEAVEN above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Just as Roman Catholics surround themselves with likenesses of things in heaven, bow to them and kiss them, and Orthodox venerate their "icons" (brought into the church by Constantine's mother), so do the Mohammedans bow 5 times a day to a black rock that resides in Mecca. They are required to go and prance around it for days at least once in their lives, some kissing and rubbing on it.

Both, of course, deny idolatry.
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Veneration of Mary

Mohammedans join with Roman Catholics in the veneration of Mary. Though blessed among other women...]]]

Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.

[[[... did Jesus suggest we venerate Mary?

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it].

No Roman Catholic would deny this 19th century Roman dogma or risk being subjected to the fires of hell.

"ASSUMPTION -- At the end of her life, Mary was taken up ("assumed") body and soul into Heaven. ("Catechism" 966, 974)

There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)

The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.

In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have "infallible" popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another "infallible" pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)"

Mohammed most likely got Mohammedan veneration of Mary during some of his consultations with a defrocked Roman Catholic priest. A whole chapter in the Quran is devoted to Mary, the only woman named in the Quran, though Mohammed's confusion was off by generations.

19 MARYAM (MARY)

Both Roman Catholics and Muslims worship Mary at Fatima.

http://www.buddhistview.com/site/epage/18341_225.htm
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/spiri...ry-worship.htm
http://www.spiritdaily.org/fatimacontroversy2.htm
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Conquest through population.

The Roman church and Mohammedanism are united on this point as well.

The Pope populating with Roman Catholics through deprivation of birth control.
Another device is through questions asked of married women during auricular confession.
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Governance and rule of all mankind

The Roman church seeks to rule all mankind with the church. This explains the dark history of Romanism which includes the murder of millions of Jews, Muslims and Christians. Their doctrine regarding control of all mankind remains unaltered.

The freedom and right to self-determination guaranteed under the U.S. constitution are the very antithesis of the Roman church, just as freedom is the enemy of Islam. The Pope voiced support for the South during the civil war in order to cause Roman Catholic soldiers in the northern army to defect. Maximizing non Roman Catholic casualties being a goal.
The pope calling for a new world order wherein the Roman Church would presumably be the arbiter of right and wrong.

Islam, of course, has lusted after the kingdoms of the world for 1400 years. Whether the First and Second Islamic Jihads, or Ahmadinejad - "Do not doubt Allah will prevail, and Islam will conquer mountaintops of the entire world.”
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Both are religions of salvation through works

Both are religions of works, that teach that we earn our own way to heaven through our own good deeds, rather than salvation being a gift of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

This rather than understanding that good deeds and works are the RESULT of salvation, NEVER the path to it:

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Works are the RESULT of salvation, NOT the path to it.
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Those in bondage to the Roman church please read "50 Years in the 'Church' of Rome by Charles Chiniquy - a Roman Catholic priest for 25 years.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/index.html

The scarlet beast may represent Satan's kingdom, and harlots the false church of men teaching their own precepts throughout history, with the RCC as the mother: http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch53.html

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

[PeteWaldo]

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_ec21na.htm

"Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions
The Second Vatican Council
Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI
October 28, 1965

Paul, Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God, together with the Fathers of the Sacred Council. For Everlasting Memory."

The Roman church confirms Islam.

The Pope supports Islam, so devout Roman Catholics are compelled to.

"3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men;......"

Indeed God has, so let's hear Him:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is MY BELOVED SON , in whom I am well pleased.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art MY BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22 ...and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art MY BELOVED SON; in thee I am well pleased.
2Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is MY BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased.

"........ they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees,......"

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [/b]. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:...

"..... just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God."

Mohammedans are unwittingly submitted to Satan. The only anti-another-religion, religion, by design. Mohammed's "revelations" co-authored by a jealous fallen angel and his self-serving false prophet Mohammed.
But there are some of us that Mohammed didn't fool:

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

Indeed even Mohammed believed it was a jinn (a demon) that met him in that cave.
Coptic priest Zakaria Botrous on this subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpsWnbApBNw

"Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God,....."

And they deny the crucifixion and resurrection, and they deny that Jesus is the Son of God, but perhaps it's just trifling in minor details, to point out that their religion is specifically built on denying the very elements that Christianity IS.

The greatest, and only unpardonable, sin in this satanic religion (shirk) being committed, if a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

What the pope has done is help the Muslims down their path of death.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] HE THAT HATH NOT THE SON OF GOD HATH NOT LIFE.

"...... they revere Him as a prophet."

They blaspheme the very blood that would save them:

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Surah 4:157 That THEY SAID (in boast), "WE KILLED CHRIST JESUS the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but so it was made to appear to them,... FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT:-

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

"They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion."

Mohammedans join with Roman Catholics in the veneration of Mary even collecting together at Fatima.
Likely from Mohammed's consultations with a defrocked priest, or from his "christian" consultant Jabr.

"In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead."

And what will be the reward for those who follow the false prophet Mohammed, in part, thanks to the Pope's encouragement?

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where THE BEAST and THE FALSE PROPHET [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

"Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer,...."

The prayers of the heathen:

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

"..... almsgiving and fasting."

Skipping lunch for a month.

"Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems,....."

This is false. The hostilities were between the Roman church and Moslems.
Here is how we know it wasn't between Christians and Moslems:

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

The Crusades, inquisitions and persecution of reformers, of the Roman Church murder of Jews, Muslims AND CHRISTIANS, were little different than the 1400 year murder, rape, pillage and plunder of Islamic jihad. No surprise that Roman style Christianity looks little different than Islam to a Moslem.

"...... this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding....."

Certainly it's no surprise that the Roman church would like the world to forget the past:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/
But that would be akin to holocaust denial.
Mutual understanding in regard to our respective beliefs is impossible for a Christian, as Mohammed WAS and taught, the EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus and the Word of God.

"...... and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

Sure. Social justice like sharia law: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fbXvq_ZIbw
And honoring women: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/women_in_islam.htm

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Sura 2:223 your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will...

Sura (4:34) - Men are the maintainers of women ... admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT THEM; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.



Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sura 112:1-3: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[PeteWaldo]

Passing up an historic opportunity to label Islam the Evil Empire and begin to save those poor folks through public debate (like Ronnie Reagan did the Soviet Union), the pope instead chose to kiss the very book that curses the Christians and Jews, for believing in the only begotten Son of God.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

The very book that denies that Jesus even died on the Cross, let alone to save us.



Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

The god of Islam - allah - even curses Christians and Jews:

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

It would seem the pope took the coward's way out, and sold out Jesus, to avoid persecution.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

[PeteWaldo]

Moved to eschatology

[PeteWaldo]

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Thus it is necessary to understand it in the context of the times during which John was writing, looking through his eyes, when we read the following verses, and indeed when considering the entirety of his vision if we are to uniformly apply this ethnographic hermeneutic:

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Considering John's assignment we can see that the 6th king or the one that "is" in power as John wrote, was the Roman Empire. Just as John prophesied the Roman Empire was conquered by the 7th beast that had "not yet come" (by the Islamic First Jihad).

The Islamic Empire lost it's power - but not it's seat - after the First Jihad was mortally wounded in the Battle of Tours, and the two horned beast later "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him", or in the presence of, the Islamic beast. The Islamic Empire lost it's power but maintained it's seat in the area. The transfer of Western wealth through arms sales and oil purchase, eventually healed the mortal wound that the Islamic beast suffered in the Battle of Poitiers at the hand of Charles Martel, financing the Second Jihad in the image of the First Jihad.
The book "Infidel" offers a personal late 20th century Somali woman's view of the healing of this Islamic beast, as a direct result of Western financing of Islam via Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Brotherhood.

It may be more constructive to recognize these seven "kings" in terms of the successive empire or kingdom reigns, since the kingdoms spanned periods longer than individual leaders, and particularly in light of the very next verse where we are brought back to our term "beast", which Daniel has already defined for us.
(Strongs - kings - New Testament Greek Definition: 935 basileus {bas-il-yooce'} probably from 939 (through the notion of a foundation of power)

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

In this verse we find an 8th beast that "was" - before John - but "is not". So the 8th beast isn't about the Roman Empire either, but it is "of the seven". Considering the identity of the leopard-bear-lion beast, today seated in Syria, Iran and Iraq, we find that it fits as having been "was", and also as having been "of the seven" (perhaps particularly of the seventh), but is not the "is" "beast" or kingdom, of John's day - the Roman Empire.

"….. it is said, five of the seven Kings are fallen, and one is, and another is not yet come; and the Beast that was and is not, being wounded to death with a sword, he is the eighth, and of the seven: he was therefore a collateral part of the seventh." - Isaac Newton

Regarding "...and goeth into perdition.", or destruction here are a couple of applicable verses which may be relatively close together in timing:

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The 7th and 8th "beasts"/kings are Islamic first and second jihad - the LBL beast's 7th head - Satan's final kingdom. Satan's power manifest in Islamic Jihad. We learned above that Satan gave the Islamic beast his power, seat and authority. The Jihadists hold ultimate power even over the whole non-middle east world through oil.

All Muslims are Jihadists though the term is interpreted loosely by liberals (who are apostates as far as fundamentalists are concerned), and understood in the Quran, by fundamentalists. Their prophet was their model for Jihad rape, pillage and plunder and sexual enslavement that is still practiced around the world today. Clearly those in the Middle East - the Arabic speaking followers in cradle of Islam - best understand and follow this religion, not the wishful reinterpreters, or Mecca styled fakers, in the West.

"U.S. mosques that feel the Koran should be interpreted with consideration of its purposes and modern circumstances: 71 percent". There are, however, specific suras in the Koran that prohibit this.
Perhaps these wishful Westerners are akin to the apostates in the ECUSA, who wished that the bible said something other than it does.

The mortal wound and death knell of the first Jihad - the Battle of Tours - was pinned by Daniel's "1335 days".
The Battle of Tours was the turning point, marking the zenith of the Islamic onslaught of the First Jihad, delivering the mortal wound to the spearhead of the invading forces, and killing the literal head of the advancing army Emir Abd er Rahman. "Without his leadership and guidance, the other commanders were unable to even agree on a commander to lead them back into battle the following morning. The effect of the death of Abdul Rahman on both Islamic and world history was profound."

"Both western and eastern historians agree that had Abdul Rahman prevailed at Tours, he would probably have conquered all of Christian Europe, Martel and his Frankish Army being all that stood between Islam and Rome itself, [5] and all history would have been far different. 'There were no further Muslim invasions of Frankish territory, and Charles's victory has often been regarded as decisive for world history, since it preserved western Europe from Muslim conquest and Islamization.'"[6]

Since we understand that the dragon - Satan - gave his seat and power to the Islamic beast (LBL above), this 8th beast is then Satan's final power play exercising his earthly power and seat and authority over his kingdoms. The same kingdoms that he offered Jesus.

These eight successive kingdom "beasts" are thus:
(There is broad consensus regarding the first six of these eight kingdom beasts.)



Though somewhat out of the consensus that first kingdom might more properly be understood to be Israel as these are successive kingdoms that ruled the Holy Land.

[PeteWaldo]

Above is the succession of kingdoms that controlled the Holy Land as a matter of historical record.