Pre-Trib. Readiness

[rod.ney]

The Caught Up ( Rapture ) of 1 Thess.4:17 will happen Pre-Trib. as per 2 Thess.2:7-8 since the Holy Spirit is the restrainer working through the born again believers ( to keep evil in check till God's appointed time for the man of lawlessness [ AC ] to reveal himself to get the 7 year Trib. of Daniel 9:27 started by confirming the covenant ) that He dwells in according to 1 Cor.6:19! So this is why all of Christ's bride ( those of 1 Thess.4:17 ) are seen in Heaven getting ready for the wedding of the Lamb ( Jesus - Rev.19:7-8 ) BEFORE He makes His Post-Trib. return to earth to reign in Jerusalem as per Matt.24:29-32 in conjunction with Isaiah 24:23 & Rev.19:14-21/20:1-6! Since the Holy Spirit is Omnipresent as per Psalm 139:7, He will still be present on earth to seal those ( left behind from the Caught Up together of 1 Thess.4:17 ) who come to faith in Jesus Christ! They are called the Trib. saints and some get beheaded and resurrected as Priest ( Rev.20:4-6 ) at Christ's Post-Trib. return to reign! The surviving trib. saints will be the sheep of Matt.25:34 that inherit the Millennium kingdom that Christ & those Priests reign over for 1000 years, while Satan is bound in the pit ( Rev.20:1-3 ) so he can not deceive their nations during that reign.

[Churchwork]

The Holy Spirit is never called the Restrainer.

2 Thess. 2.7-8 says "For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming."

Pretribulation rapture onlyists make several mistakes. They claim before the Great Tribulation, the Holy Spirit returns to heaven. Since the church is with the Holy Spirit, it may be assumed that the whole church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. The basis for this assumption is 2 Thessalonians 2.6-7 where the phrase “one that restraineth” is made to refer to the Holy Spirit. Yet “one that restraineth” cannot be the Holy Spirit, for the subsequent clause - “until he be taken out of the way”- is not the proper terminology to be used in speaking about the Holy Spirit. The Third Person of the Trinity has many different names, such as the Spirit, the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of revelation, etc; and the word “Spirit” is usually present - and even though in one instance the word “Comforter” is used alone, yet from the next clause which follows (“even the Spirit of truth”) it is evident that this has clear reference to the Holy Spirit (John 14.16-17). Never do the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is “he that restrains”; moreover, how can the Holy Spirit be said to “be taken out of the way”? Furthermore, where does the Bible announce that the Holy Spirit is absent during the Great Tribulation? And how can there be the so-called believers of the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not present? For no one is saved without the Holy Spirit, He who is born of the Spirit is spirit. Moreover, this matter of the Holy Spirit’s presence during the Great Tribulation is clearly shown in Revelation 5: “and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth” (v.6). The time of the Great Tribulation is the time of the latter rain (see Acts 2.15-21, Joel 2.28-31). The prophecy of Joel was not completely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. For on that day there were no “wonders in the heaven and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke”; nor was “the sun . . . turned into darkness, and the moon into blood” (Joel 2.30-31). All of these five wonders will be fulfilled around and in the time of the Great Tribulation: blood (first trumpet), fire (first and second trumpets), smoke (fifth trumpet), sun and moon (sixth seal). Pentecost is only a miniature, a foretaste. Peter does not say: “It is fulfilled”; he merely says that “this is that” (Acts 2.16). As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit is going to do greater work during the time of the Great Tribulation. If there will not be the Holy Spirit present, how can the saints ever endure during the Great Tribulation?

1 Thess. 4.14-18 pertains to the rapture and resurrection at the start of the 7th trumpet, not the rapture before the Tribulation.

"14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.14-18).

1 Thess. 4 "meet the Lord in the air" (v.18) is not the same place as "before the throne" (7.9). The places to be raptured towards are different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air” – Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time. The rapture to the throne occurs before the 1st trumpet (8.7). Whereas to the air refers to the resurrection and rapture at the start of the 7th trumpet (11.15).

By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage relates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.

As we have come to see, the first school lacks scriptural evidences while the second school, though it possesses many proofs, nevertheless has many errors too. What, then, does the Bible actually teach? Let us consider the following observations.

A. Revelation 3.10. “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the second school of interpretation as well as those of the first. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. The second school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23). Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of” (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones”). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.10a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.

B. Luke 21.36 also proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experienced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the first and second schools of interpretation. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

Questions raised against separate rapture, and answers thereto, are submitted below.

A. Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life. If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

B. Others object that rapture is part of redemption, that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works.
C. Some observers ask, is it not rather cruel to take away hope from the church? To which we must answer that in the Scriptures there is no such false hope given; and therefore it is better to alert people to this fact.

D. I Corinthians 15.23, say some, only mentions “they that are Christ’s” and that nothing is said about works. But let us be aware that this verse does not speak of rapture, it speaks of resurrection.

E. Since the dead will not go through the Great Tribulation, would it not be unfair to the living for them to go through it? Will not the righteous God be unjust in this regard? In response, let me say that we do need to be concerned; for during the millennium each and every believer (including all believers who died prior to the Great Tribulation) will receive, as a consequence of appearing before Christ’s judgment seat, the things done in the body while alive, according to what he has done whether it be good or bad (2 Cor. 5.10).

F. Since in 1 Cor. 15:50-52 (“We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed”) “all” is the word used, surely this signifies the whole body. Yes, the “all” here does indeed refer to the entire body, but it does not have reference to the same time. For example, we all will die, but certainly not all of us will do so in one day.
G. There is a distinction made in the Bible between wheat and tares, some say, but no difference made between wheat and wheat; consequently, all wheat must be raptured. In reply, it should be noted that the times of ripening for wheat are not the same. Thus there are the firstfruits and the later harvest.

H. Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

For many more reasons why the first rapture is not a foregone conclusion for the whole Church study those reasons here,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm (section I & II)

See charts here,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_24.htm

[rod.ney]

FYI, my OP clearly states that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent as per Psalm 139:7! So yes indeed the Holy Spirit will still be present on earth after the pre-Trib. Caught Up of 1 Thess.4:17 ( those He dwells in - 1 Cor.6:19 and works through to keep evil in check ) transpires! Thus He will indeed get to seal those leftbehinders that come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ during that final 7 years of Daniel's 70 sevens!

[Churchwork]

1 Thess. 4.17 does not take place before the Tribulation. "Lord himself shall descend from heaven" (v.16) takes place at the end of the Tribulation. "To meet the Lord in the air" (v.17) occurs at the start of the 7th trumpet, whereas "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) takes place before the 1st trumpet (8.7) of the Tribulation is blown. And, of course, the first rapture is according to readiness according to the conditional statements of Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, and Rev. 3.10.

Part of the confusion will stem from the idea Rev. 4 is the rapture. No! Rev. 4 is the picture of Heaven. Rev. 5 recounts the cross. And Rev. 6 are the past 20 centuries concurrent with the church age in Rev. 2 & 3. Revelation is the easiest book of the Bible to understand.

Some argue that according to I Thess. 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” - The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth.

Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth.

One group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

Revelation is even more exacting than that. Rev. 9 says the 1st woe is 5 months, 2nd woe is 13 months; therefore, the 3rd woe must be 24 months. So we know after the 42 months in Rev. 8 of the first half of the 7 year Tribulation there is 5 months + 13 months more before the 7th trumpet resurrection and rapture, leaving 24 months of the 7th trumpet. After all this then Jesus steps down on the mount of Olives (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7).

[rod.ney]

The Caught Up of 1 Thess.4:17 is in FACT prior to the start of Dan.9:27 ( the AC revealing himself as he kicks off that seven by confirming the covenant ) because Rev.19:7-8 shows them all in heaven ( in their Glorified bodies - Philippians 3:21 ) getting ready for His wedding PRIOR to His Post-Trib. ( Matt.24:29-32/Rev.19:11-21& 20:1-6 ) return to REIGN in Jerusalem ( Isaiah 24:23 ) and resurrect the beheaded Trib. saints as Priests to Reign with Him for 1000 years! Yes there is also a Mid-Trib. Caught Up of the Two witnesses ( Only - no one else ) of Rev. chapter 11! The Holy Spirit does the restraining mentioned in 2 Thess.2:1-8 and He does it by WORKING through the body of Christ ( those of 1 Thess.4:17 ) that He dwells in as per 1 Cor.6:19! The Only entity that scriptures show getting TAKEN or Caught Up are those of 1 Thess.4:17! Any other entity such as Michael the Arch angel would NOT get Taken out of the way at the Father's appointed time. God the Father would just tell them that it is time for Dan.9:27 to get started and they would just remove them-self and not get snatched out of the way by God! So yes indeed 1 Thess.4:17 are those Taken in 2 Thess.2:7-8! That is why they are then in heaven for the wedding of the Lamb ( Jesus ), while the final 7 years od Daniel's 70 sevens are Transpiring on earth! NO one gets Caught Up to heaven at Christ's Post-Trib. return to earth at the Mt. of Olives ( Zech.14:4/Acts 1:11b ) because those resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 as Priests, stay on earth to REIGN with Jesus for those 1000 Years!

[Churchwork]

You didn't address the reasons I gave why 1 Thess. 4.17 is at the end of the Tribulation, that is, the 7th Trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15.50-52. Whether dead or living, all will be raptured. Yet, again, it presents the fact of rapture without specifying a time sequence that would indicate a pre-tribulation rapture. On the contrary, it can be used to prove a post-tribulation rapture. “At the last trump” is a descriptive phrase that is equal to the seventh trumpet cited in Revelation 11.15. Some people advance the theory that according to Roman custom the trumpets are sounded three times. But the Holy Spirit follows no Roman law.

Jeremiah 30.6-7. “The time of Jacob’s trouble” - The Great Tribulation is only for the Jews, not for the Gentiles or for the church some claim. Since the church is not the Jews, we therefore will not go through the Great Tribulation. See also Daniel 12.1. If there were only these two passages in the entire Bible which speak of the Great Tribulation, then the Great Tribulation would indeed be exclusively for the Jews. But we can read other passages in the Bible, such as Revelation 3 which speaks of “the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (v.10). The prophecies of Jeremiah and Daniel were directed toward the Jews, and hence they used such words “Jacob” and “Thy people” quite logically.

Revelation 19 takes place after the first rapture and after the 7th trumpet rapture/resurrection in Rev. 11.15 so of course, there are those in heaven by the time Jesus returns to step down on the mount of olives.

The Two Witnesses Enoch and Elijah resurrected and raptured is not a mid-trib event per se, but when they are raised 3.5 days later this also points to all saints in the Tribulation that were not taken at the first rapture so when they are martyred they like the Two Witnesses will be resurrected and raptured. All throughout the Tribulation period when a believer is martyred he will be resurrected and raptured 3.5 days later, not at a specific time of mid-trib.

2 Thessalonians 2.1-9. Please read this passage very carefully. Verse 1 gives the topic of this passage - namely, the coming of Christ and rapture. Since the rapture spoken of here is a being gathered in the air, there is already a hint as to its being after tribulation. In verse 2, the word “spirit” signifies another spirit, not the Holy Spirit; the term “word” means rumor; “us” refers to Paul, Silvanus and Timothy; and “the day of the Lord” is the day of the coming of Christ and rapture. In those days there were people who deluded the Thessalonian believers by saying that the day of the Lord had already come and that they had been left behind. Yet verse 3 shows that this day will not arrive until after the following two signs: (1) that before rapture, there will appear the man of sin, the son of perdition, who is the Antichrist; and (2) that there will first come the falling away, which is apostasy. When will the man of sin be revealed? It will naturally be at the Great Tribulation, So that rapture will be after this Tribulation. At least part of the church must go through the Great Tribulation.

You didn't address anything I said in my post. Makes for a one way conversation. You didn't even address the conditional statements for the first rapture in Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10). Only those who keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful get to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world.

By the way you can nip your beliefs in the but by easily seeing Rev. 4.1 is not a rapture, but simply John taken up in the spirit. And the 24 elders are 24 archangels. 24 is never the number of the Church.