Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hickenbotham
Quote Originally Posted by Parture
"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2.21).

Do Mormons think they are saved by trying to keep the law or believe they can lose salvation by not keeping the law? It seems to me a Mormon believes, depending on his level of keeping the law, he will earn himself a different standing among the kingdoms and if he is really bad at keeping the law could find himself in Hell. But I thought salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast? Please enlighten me or correct me if you don't agree with what I said.
As always, I speak for myself and not for FairMormon or the Church. The questions you're asking are not easily answered. They have perplexed Christians for hundreds of years and are still being debated today. Just goggle "faith versus works controversy" and you'll see. I think Latter-day Saints have resolved this controversy better than any other religious group. Here's what I have written on this:

Those who generally ask questions about salvation most often have a different understanding of salvation, grace, and even faith itself than do Latter-day Saints. Without agreeing on common definitions of these terms, most discussions in this area will be futile. The scriptures use the terms save and salvation with differing meanings. Salvation may mean redemption from physical death, redemption from sin, redemption from sin and death, or in some instances eternal life with God. While most Protestants would generally define salvation as redemption from both death and sin, Latter-day Saints would add the receipt of exaltation to this definition. Exaltation by the LDS definition is the same as deification. Salvation without exaltation is, by the LDS definition, only partial salvation.

The term "grace" is likewise defined differently by Protestants and Latter-day Saints. Protestants generally define grace as the unmerited favor of God. This definition though brief, is somewhat confusing. It could, for example, exclude the need for any effort on the part of man. Most would agree that faith on our part is necessary for salvation. Protestants would also add that both repentance and a profession of faith in Jesus Christ are required to be saved. Thus, some effort is required.

Latter-day Saints define grace as God's "love, mercy, and condescension towards his children" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 338). We agree that salvation is granted by God as a result of true faith but, as James pointed out, true faith will always be coupled with works on our part (Jam. 2:17-20). The LDS Bible Dictionary contains the following informative statement concerning the relationship of grace and works:

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

We believe divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, "It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible.... (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).

Beliefs concerning the concept of grace cover a spectrum between two doctrinal extremes. At these extremes there are two theological traps. The first being a belief in salvation by grace alone which might lead to the conclusion that obedience and good works are irrelevant. The second consists of a belief in salvation by works which could cause men to trust wholly in their own labors and genius, erroneously supposing that they will be rewarded hereafter solely upon their own achievements (see Robert L. Millet, By Grace Are We Saved, p. 4). Both of these beliefs are dangerous and potentially could cause us to fall short of exaltation.

The concept of salvation by grace through faith alone is today taught by some who refer to themselves as orthodox Protestants. Their misunderstanding of this doctrine stems from the fact that they have focused their attention on certain Pauline epistles to the exclusion of other New Testament teachings. Many Protestant sermons today continue to emphasize faith without works even though no Bible scripture specifically teaches that men are saved by faith alone.

The apostle Peter warned us that in the specific area of salvation, it is dangerous to rely solely on the epistles of Paul because these writing were difficult to understand and if misunderstood could lead to destruction (2 Pet. 3:15-16). One might think that this warning would be enough to keep readers of the scriptures from relying totally upon Paul's writings in this one area, but this is precisely what many Protestants have done. They cite scriptures in Paul's epistles to the Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians almost exclusively, in support of their doctrine of salvation and "wrest [struggle with]... the other [Old and New Testament] scriptures [which speak of works] unto their own destruction" (1 Pet. 3:16). See also page XX of this text for additional scriptural support regarding the importance of works.

In Paul's defense it should be pointed out that his emphasis on grace, like modern LDS emphasis on good works, was probably a reaction to the prevalent teachings of that day. In Paul's day, the Jewish converts were of the opinion that compliance with the Law of Moses was essential to justification (redemption from sin) and salvation (see Acts 13:39; Rom. 2:17; 3:19-28; Gal. 2:16; 3:11-14, 24). Although Paul's statements about justification at first seem contradictory (see Rom. 2:13; 3:20; and Rom. 2:6; Gal. 2:16), it is clear to Latter-day Saints that the Law of Moses was only a "schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ" (Gal. 3:24) who is the "author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:9) or in other words his gospel. Although the Law of Moses definitely does not justify men without Christ's atonement (2 Nephi 2:5-6, Mosiah 13:28), "the doers of the law shall be justified" (Rom. 2:13; see also Jam. 2:24) "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24). Thus, according to Paul, we are expected to have faith coupled with righteousness in order to be justified before God and receive eternal life (Rom. 2:6-8; 14:17-18; 1 Tim. 6:18-19).

It is significant to note that the word grace, according to all four gospel writers, was never used by Jesus Christ. One would think that if grace alone were sufficient to salvation and exaltation then Christ would have taught us this important truth himself. Yet we search in vain for this doctrine among Christ's own sayings. On the other hand, Christ repeatedly emphasized the importance of obedience to gospel teachings and the necessity of good works on our part (Matt. 5:16; 7:21-23; 11:21-23; 16:27; 25:46; Mark 10:17-21; 12:28-34; Luke 7:31-38; 10:25-28; 11:28; 13:3, 24-27; 14:12-14; John 5:29; 7:17; 8:31-34; 13:34-35; 14:15, 21; 15:10). Why should he do so if obedience and good works were unnecessary?

Because members and missionaries of the LDS Church may at times emphasize the importance of obedience and works, some might think that the concept of grace is not part of LDS theology. References to grace are found throughout LDS scriptures and writings. The Book of Mormon speaks of grace at least 35 times and the Doctrine and Covenants 28 times.

We find Lehi, the first Book of Mormon prophet teaching, "There is no flesh can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah" (2 Nephi 2:8). Jacob likewise taught, "ye are free to act for yourselves - to choose the way of eternal death or the way of eternal life. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God... and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. Wherefore may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine (2 Nephi 10:23-25).

Moroni, the last Book of Mormon prophet, after speaking of the requirements of baptism gave instructions to the church to watch over new converts nourishing them "by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith" (Moroni 6:4). Moroni's closing remarks exhort all men to "come unto Christ and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness... and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and... then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God through the shedding of the blood of Christ..." (Moroni 10:32-33).

These passages make it clear that works are necessary on our part but our works in no way save us. Works are a sign of our faith for "faith without works is dead" (Jam. 2:26). Without the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ all men would be lost despite their good works (Eph. 2:8-10; Heb. 9:22) but without good works God will not justify any man (Rom. 2:13; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Jn. 1:7; Alma 41:13-15).

Steven E. Robinson has explained:

Our best efforts to live the laws of God are required, but not because they earn the promised rewards -- our efforts are infinitely disproportionate to the actual costs. Rather, our best efforts are a token of our good faith and of our acceptance of the offered covenant. Thus we participate in our own salvation... but we can never earn it ourselves or bring it to pass on our own merits, no matter how well we may think we are doing (Are Mormons Christian, pp. 105-106).

When the scriptural steps by which grace becomes operative are understood, we find that: 1) God's grace and love towards all men (John 3:16) were manifest in Christ's atoning sacrifice (Titus 2:11; 1 Jn. 4:9-10) and 2) when we keep God's commandments, we abide in that love (John 15:10; 1 Jn. 4:7; 5:3); 3) we are born of God (1 Jn. 5:4, 18); and 4) sanctified by the Spirit (2 Thes. 2:13) and 5) receive eternal life through Jesus Christ (1 Jn. 5:11). Though we are indeed saved by the grace of God and Christ, we will also appear before the judgment seat to "receive a reward according to our works" (Matt. 16:27; Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:8; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 20:12-13).

Anti-Mormon literature often claims that members of our Church believe in salvation by works, but this is not accurate. LDS beliefs are in accord with the teachings of both Paul and James. We believe in salvation by grace through faith (Rom. 5:2; Eph. 2:8) but we also believe that faith without works is dead (Jam. 2:17). To understand LDS teachings in this area one must first understand the meaning and significance of faith in Mormon theology.

Mormons firmly believe that the first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; faith that he is our Savior and Redeemer and that he died for us. Our fourth Article of Faith begins, "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second Repentance...,” etc. Thus, we believe that faith in Christ is the first step in the conversion process (see Alma 32). Without it, no salvation would be possible.

We also believe as taught by James that our faith, if it is sincere, will be accompanied by works (Jam. 2:17, 24, 26). It is significant that not one scripture tells us that men are saved through faith alone but many scriptures tie faith and works inseparably together as will be shown shortly. Our third Article of Faith states, "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” Those laws and ordinances include faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by water and the Spirit, and lastly enduring to the end of our lives in obedience to the commandments. The Savior taught these basic principles of the gospel during his ministry (Matt. 4:17; 10:22; 19:17; 27:19-20; John 3:5, 17-18; see also page XX of this text) and converts to the Church of Christ were likewise taught these principles by the apostles (Acts 2:36-38; 10:35-36, 43, 47-48; 19:2-6). These same principles along with a belief in the resurrection and the judgment were considered by Paul to be the milk of the gospel (Heb. 5:12-14; 6:1-2; see also 1 Cor. 3:2; 1 Pet. 2:2; D&C 19:22; 50:40). Unfortunately, some Christians have never been weaned away from gospel milk but are still arguing about and striving to understand these basic teachings. The meat of the gospel, according to Paul, "belongeth to them that are of full age, even to those who by reason of use have their sense exercised to discern both good and evil" (Heb. 5:4). Paul is saying that the mature Christian lives as dictated by the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, making the right choices and producing good works. As Elder Glenn Pace has pointed out, “...we will not be saved by works if those works are not born of a disposition to do good, as opposed to an obligation to do good.” He goes on to explain that this process "comes about through grace and by the Spirit of God, although it does not come about until we have truly repented and proven ourselves worthy" (Spiritual Plateaus, p. 63). A mature Christian is converted to the truth and is obedient to the gospel because he has undergone a spiritual transformation referred to in scripture as being "born again" (John 3:3-7, 1 Jn. 2:29; 3:9; Mosiah 27:24-26; LDS Topical Guide, p. 306).

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and have thus accepted him as Savior by taking his name upon them in baptism (Mosiah 5:7-15). Because Latter-day Saints have also accepted the gospel basics which include true faith (belief followed by works), the covenant of baptism which includes obedience to the commandments (Mosiah 5:5, 8, 15) and understand the principle of enduring to the end (1 Nephi 22:31; 2 Nephi 31:16, 19-21), it only remains for them to learn how to endure in righteousness and live by the Spirit. We believe that, as Paul taught, the emphasis after conversion should shift from milk (faith, repentance, etc.) to the meat (enduring in righteousness and living by the Spirit).

Emphasis on works is not unique to the LDS Church. It is also found in every major book of the New Testament. Consider the following scriptures: Matthew 5:19; 7:21-23; 16:27; 25:46; Mark 7:6-8; Luke 11:28; 13:3, 27; 14:12-14; John 5:29; Acts 2:37-38; 3:19; 10:35; 19:4; Romans 2:5-8, 10, 13; 14:12, 17-18; 1 Corinthians 3:8, 14; 6:9; 10:10-12; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Galatians 6:4, 7-9; Ephesians 6:8; Philippians 2:12; Colossians 1:10; 3:24-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:1-3; 2 Thessalonians 2:12; 1 Timothy 1:19; 6:18-19; 2 Timothy 2:20-21; 3:17; Titus 1:16; 2:14; Hebrews 4:11; 5:9; 6:4-6; 10:24, 26; 12:15; James 2:24; 1 Peter 1:17; 2 Peter 2:20-21; 3:17; 1 John 1:6-9; 2:3-4; 3:10; 2 John 9; 3 John 11; Jude 15; Revelation 2:23, 26; 14:12-13; 20:12-13; 22:14-15. If good works spontaneously springs from faith, why would every New Testament writer feel it necessary to exhort us to keep God's commandments?

We also find the first fathers emphasizing obedience. According to Clement, Barnabas taught, “...the Son of God is in the Judean country, promising eternal life to all who will hear him, provided they will do certain things conformant to the will of Him who sent him, namely God the Father" (Clementine Recognitions, I, 1-5 in Patrol., Graec I, 1207-9 as quoted in Hugh Nibley, The World and the Prophets, p. 32).

Although Mormons do not rely on good works for salvation, those outside our Church who believe we do often quote Ephesians 2:8-9 ("by grace are ye saved... not of works"). Those who do so, rarely quote the next verse which reads: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” The context thus makes it clear that good works are expected of those who are "born again" through grace. Thus, the gift of salvation, referred to as eternal life, is promised to those who are spiritually transformed and is bestowed by the Lord at the end of life's journey following the resurrection and judgment (see 2 Nephi 31:19-20 and previous page).

Some have also raised the question of "dead works" citing Romans 4:4-5 and Isaiah 64:6 to show that, unless we are saved, our righteousness is worthless. As has already been shown (page XX), salvation is not instantly realized by confessing that Jesus is our Lord and Savior but will be achieved by living in faith to the end of our mortal existence. The phrase "dead works" used by Paul in his epistle to the Hebrews referred not to righteous actions but unrighteous behavior which was to be repented of and abandoned completely. The New International Version makes this clear by translating the last portion of Hebrews 6:1 as, "not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death" or in other words, sinful works of the flesh (see also Hebrews 9:14).

As was mentioned in an earlier response (page XX), Paul's emphasis on grace and not on works was partially a reaction to the Jewish belief that Mosaic "deeds of the law" would justify them. To understand Romans 4:4-5, we must first read the end of Romans 3 where Paul is teaching justification "by faith without the deeds of the law" of Moses (Rom. 3:28). The deed he is specifically addressing is circumcision (verse 30). Thus, circumcision, though a righteous deed of the law, is of no value to the Jew unless he has faith in Christ. Paul goes on to cite Abraham as an example of a man who though uncircumcised (Rom. 4:12), was made "heir of the world" (exalted) "through the righteousness of faith" (Rom 4:13). Thus, true faith will produce righteousness and good works.

Isaiah 64:6 which speaks of our righteousness as "filthy rags" can also be translated as "soiled garments.” An allusion to soiled garments is more in keeping with the rest of the scriptures (see Isa. 1:6-19) and fits perfectly with Alma's declaration that "there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white... through the blood of [Christ]" (Alma 5:21; see also Rev. 7:14; Alma 13:11; 3 Nephi 27:19; Ether 13:10). Therefore, our works like unclean garments are of no value without Christ's atonement which cleanses them. Unlike dirty rags, soiled garments are valuable when cleaned and are therefore worth keeping. Good works likewise are of value when coupled with faith.
Our works are also of value in that they are a token of our obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ (Luke 11:28; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17; D&C 138:4). When we obey God's commandments we also demonstrate our love for him (John 14:15, 21; 1 Jn. 2:5; 5:3) and may thereby be born again (1 Jn. 2:29) unto eternal life (John 3:3; 3 Jn. 21). Our works are a product of faith and the regenerating influence of the Holy Ghost (Rev. 14:12-13). They in no way earn any blessings from God, but, true conversion will produce righteous works. Therefore, without Christ's atonement no man can receive salvation and any good works produced without faith in him are of no saving value.
In the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin's discourse to his people illustrates the futility of trying to earn salvation. He declared:

...if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another --
I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another -- I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.
And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.
And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? (Mosiah 2:20-24)

In summary, the accusation that Mormons believe in salvation by works is a misrepresentation of LDS doctrine. The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon affirm that Christ's sacrifice and God's grace are both essential to our salvation. Our works are important in the sense that they are a token of both faith and obedience (Heb. 5:9; Jam. 2:26) but without Christ's atoning sacrifice no man may be saved (1 Nephi 10:6; 2 Nephi 2:5-7; Jacob 7:12; Mosiah 3:17; 16:10-13; Alma 21:9; 22:14; 41:3-4). On the other hand, those who rely solely on the grace but lack the good works which accompany true faith, may fulfill Christ's prophecy in Matthew 7:21-23. Even though they may claim faith and miracles in Christ's name, to them he will say, "depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” If these are rejected, surely those who only profess Christ's name while failing to obey his gospel will be rejected as well at the day of judgment.

Michael Hickenbotham
FairMormon Volunteer
Quote Originally Posted by Louis Midgley
Quote Originally Posted by Parture
"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2.21).

Do Mormons think they are saved by trying to keep the law or believe they can lose salvation by not keeping the law? It seems to me a Mormon believes, depending on his level of keeping the law, he will earn himself a different standing among the kingdoms and if he is really bad at keeping the law could find himself in Hell But I thought salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast? Please enlighten me or correct me if you don't agree with what I said.
A problem with fundamentalist Protestant proof-texting is that the one doing that sort of thing does not contextualize the proof-text. What exactly is the "law" the Apostle Paul is rejecting in Galatians? The Mosaic ceremonial law requiring a mutilated penis as proof of one being right with God? Or that circumcision alone get one right with God? Or was it also the huge number of tiny little rules that Jewish hypocrites had burdened the Jews with, and from which Jesus was insisting that he would liberate those so afflicted by taking the burden from the faithful by his merciful forgiveness of sin?
This particular questioner assumes, following Luther that one is somehow justified the moment one confesses Jesus "by faith alone," and hence without having to change a single thing in their behavior. He may consider sanctification optional, and certainly he is not himself a Saint. And he make the mistake of not seeing that one can fall from grace by turning away from God by flagrantly not manifesting deeds of righteousness.
The answer to his questions can be found in both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. His problem is that he has not taken our sacred texts seriously and hence follows some crude and intentional misunderstanding of what is found in the scriptures and hence what Latter-day Saints believe. He should begin by taking seriously what is still taught plainly and forcefully in "The General Epistle of James." In its second chapter we read the following:
"So faith by itself, if it has not works, is dead."
"But some one will say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me they faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown you foolish fellow, that faith apart form works is barren. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, 'Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'; and he was called of God."
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (I have quoted Revised Standard Version of James 2:17-24, 26).
My experience with this fellow indicates clearly that he is not at all interested in knowing what we believe. Instead, he is hoping to get into a debate in which he thinks he can bash us into adopting his really odd version of conservative Protestantism, which few if any have adopted and which often flies in the face of much even traditional apostate Protestant ideology.
In addition, he seems entirely unaware of our sacred texts. He could easily find the answers to his questions he asks below, if he would actually read the Book of Mormon. He could get a full understanding of how we understand words like "grace," "gifts," "faith," "works," "justification," "sanctification," and so forth, by reading carefully the Book of Mormon. He clearly has not done this. He should, I believe read prayerfully the following from the final message found in the Book of Mormon, then he would see that we do not think that we do not think we can just somehow "earn" our way with God by ourselves:
"And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.
And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.
Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moroni 10:30-33.)
He can, of course, either ignore or reject what the scriptures actually teach concerning the these matters. Everything I have seen from him seem, unfortunately to indicate that he has no interest whatsoever in the truth about what we believe about divine things.
All I can do is show you how you are misreading James. To be a new creation of God you must believe. You can work all you like, try to keep as many laws as you deem necessary, but at the end of the day if you don't believe you are not saved. This is why we are saved by faith alone. What about works? Works naturally follow. If you say no works are necessary to grow in Christ, I can return with since that is your fruit I know you were never born-again. But if you say you admit your works could be better and you are seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit then even though your works aren't up to snuff, I can consider you a brother in Christ. But since you say the new birth, initial salvation, eternal life also require works to be a new creation and remain so then I know you are not in Christ but you are going to Hell.

Dave Hunt always said it best. That would be a weird kind of salvation if you get saved, lose it, get it back, only to lose it again, on and on. God simply doesn't regenerate your spirit in the first place with that attitude despite all these hoops you are trying to go through as a Mormon. If you say you can lose salvation once saved, I know you are not a Christian, and therefore, going to Hell, because John 10.28 is clear those who are born-again "they shall never perish". Praise the Lord! This is a salvation you don't know because you could still end up going to Hell according to your faith, and at the very least be reduced to some lesser kingdom. That is not very comforting, and it leads to doubt which is what Satan wants. Whereas in Christianity all believers are saints, all believers are a royal priesthood, all believers are pillars on the New City, and all believers have eternal life which can never be lost. Now that is a God you can believe in and be assured by.

I don't believe you believe (I know you don't) in God that does this. Maybe that's why Christians believe God was alone from everlasting and you think you always existed in some pre-existing atheist brew of matter or material you call intelligences. The Bible says Jesus created all things so He is in the Trinity but you say He didn't create all things. The Bible says Jesus is the Alpha & Omega, I AM, but you say He isn't. God says He was alone from everlasting, no gods, nothing (no time, no space) beside Him, but you say there was this other stuff too. God is limited by other stuff? I only see pride in you making this claim you always existed. Mormons will forever reject the God who existed outside of time and space. Question yourself why you can't remember your pre-mortal existence. Is it because you never existed before? Christianity never taught pre-existence. It goes against the Bible. Joseph Smith thought he found a loophole but that loophole was snuffed out the very word of God the 66 books of the Bible for our protection.

You're in a cult that says cows existed in the ancient Americas when they didn't, and the fraudster Joseph Smith said the New Jerusalem would be built in west Missouri within a generation. Never happened. Nor could it happen because the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21 is 1379 x 1379 miles not the approximate dimensions of Missouri of 264 x 264 miles. Agent Smith was confused. He changed free will into some impersonal term called agency. Jesus didn't return 1891. Jesus was not born in Jerusalem but Bethlehem. Joseph Smith didn't know the Bible very well so instead of trying to change the meaning of all Biblical terms, since God does not contradict Himself, realize your cult is wrong and the Church did not go missing for 18 centuries. Pray on this as I pray for you.

I highly encourage you to examine the scores of examples of Joseph Smith's made up prophets in the BofM in which they (which was really Smith) quoted the KJV NT when the authors of those books of the KJV were not even born yet. He also added chapters to the Isaiah scroll even though the scroll is the same today as it was in the Dead Sea Scrolls 100 BC. There are 66 chapters, no more, no less. It's amazing a person doesn't think through this obvious fraud. The BofM is pointing to the one who will come to write the book which is Joseph Smith, but Smith is the one who made the prediction of himself in the BofM. How is that not fraud and goofy? He's not a very good con artist anyway for someone who would have the audacity to attempt to do this because he made so many mistakes. The end result is many go to Hell being lead astray by this cult. Fortunately, there are only about 5 million active Mormons/LDS in the world, if that, including the 150 or so sects and offshoots. They are dwindling thanks to technology: Internet, YouTube, and data mining 110,000 books prior to 1830 with computer algorithms to know statistically significant which books Joseph Smith relied on.