Yes time and space are causal, for without time you could not exist. Same with space. The body is formed from the dust or particles of space just like the Bible says (Gen. 2.7). All the necessary ingredients are needed. No space, matter and time, then no you.Originally Posted by Yrost
Look at it this way: for effects to happen in space and time to particles you need space and time. The atheist is always wrong because he always shuts his mind down, short of the glory of God.
It is all taking place on a molecular level. I can't believe you don't realize that? What nonsense are you selling thinking otherwise? All things in nature have these building blocks: and all exhibit cause and effect. It is inescapable and undeniable. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you come back to reality.You claim that micro organisms consuming, reproducing and excreting on a certain food type isn't that much different than a carbon-14 atom spontaneously emitting ionizing particles that transform it into a nitrogen-14 atom? What kind of nonsense are you selling here?
They're just particles? What are you talking about? Cars and Planets are just particles, does that make them "not so different" too? Bears and Chainsaws are just particles too, does that make them "not so different" also?
I can't believe I started this discussion thinking you had some capability of intelligent thought.
I don't think the reason you are not religious is because you can't find a reason, since I have given you a reason which you could not overturn, so the reason must be your heart condition. You want to be eternally separated from God and so you will be. I think my reason is quite clear and demonstrable because all that we are talking about has been proven and all you can do is bear false witness instead.Well your suspicions would be wrong and your proof isn't very lucid or demonstrable at all. In truth, I have no problem with religious people, I used to be very religious myself and most of my friends are too religious. I gave up religion because no one I could not find any reason why I believed a god existed and no one could provide me with one either. What I do have a problem with is people that devalue others because of their own beliefs, like you do. You spontaneously assumed that I didn't consider murder, rape and crime as bad and said that atheists are connected to nature in a vile disgusting way, you have prejudices against people because of their thoughts and because of your own fears, this kind of anti-social repugnant behavior is disgusting to me and I know many Christians that would dislike you for your baseless ideals.
I don't devalue you. You are made in God's image just like I am, but then after that we part ways because you want to spend eternity in Hell like someone who commits a crime and must spend the rest of their life in jail, knowing that jail is the consequence. When you bear false witness against others, you are devaluing them. That's abusive behavior. You're like Satan the great accuser when you do that.
What matters is what can be proven. You could not prove your accusations, but I proved you are going to Hell. If proof matters then really you are just projecting your own conditions onto others by accusing them falsely. The reason you don't give your life to Christ is because you are afraid to let go of self and place your trust in Jesus. It is more painful for you to give up control of self for God's guiding light than for you to spend eternity in Hell. That's the choice you have made for yourself. From the sin of rejecting God all sorts of sins follow. So you become anti-social; and murder, rape and crime are fair game if they aid in your natural selection myopic radar. These are all obviously baseless ideals of yours, all the result of your hostility to your Creator, like a person who rejects their parents for no good reason at all. What love is that?
That's an invalid excuse for the Bible has been set before you all your life. All you need is right there. God is not going to smack you over the head with it. You got to pick it up and read it. God loves relating to us as sovereign free willed beings.I would love to receive salvation from him, but I know so little about him.
But for naturalism if you murder someone and nobody finds out about it to pocket 10 million dollars so can start building your empire, why in naturalism is that not a good thing for you? Who is to say that is not valid since there are no objective moral values in atheism!Your delusions are getting worse by the second, I didn't say that at all. The fact that your brain isn't capable of realising how rape, murder and crime happening to people around me works against my survival, demonstrates that no debate can open your eyes to true salvation.
Just because we don't know the cause to something, it would be highly arrogant and presumptuous to assume that it has no cause just because you are not smart enough to figure it out. For you to prove your beliefs are not delusional, you would have to actually prove something comes from nothing, that which has no space, time, matter, energy, antimatter, etc. Not sure how you would do that though. You would have to be able to replicate it. Since you have failed to do so, realize you are on the road to perdition and will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity.Avoid it? I gave you evidence that nature does not show that everything has a cause and effect. Radioactive decay has no known cause, to make a claim that everything has a cause means that everything has been shown to have a cause, we do not know if everything needs a cause. For example, what are the causes of electromagnetism, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force?
Everything has not been shown to have a cause-effect relationship, this is a false premise!
Also, infinite regress only applies to real-time that we experience. At a quantum level time itself breaks down. It has no beginning nor end.
We don't need to be all-knowing like God would be to know the universe always needs a cause, for once you see there are trillions and trillions of causes in nature, and no hard evidence for something coming from nothing, you can be confident nature always needs a cause. We can be assured that all the variables and constants of the universe need a cause in such fine tuning.
You're contradicting yourself, because you demand to be God to know if God exists, but are you God? You'll never be God. You're like the Devil who erects himself as God. Think how pretentious it would be if you knew everything except for one last thing but held out that it could somehow disprove God and prove something comes from nothing. Does that not strike you as false humility to the most ridiculous level possible?
Infinite regress necessarily must exist if naturalism was true, for all things in nature need a cause even your imaginary admittedly unproven imaginary time. At the quantum level cause and effect never break down; there is both beginning and end. Since you can't show otherwise, realize you are living a lie.
Those numbers are a fraction of the published numbers. And even if it was only this few, how does that make it right? Your argument is because you are less murderous than perceived other murderers that makes you good?Now you're just fabricating information. Here's a list of Atheist crimes.
Mao Zedong 20,000,000 - 43,000,000
Stalin - Holodomor Famine - 2,500,000 - 10,000,000
Pol Pot - Genocide - 1,700,000 - 2,500,000
Nuon Chea - Famine -1,700,000 - 3,000,000
Obviously he fashioned God in his own image. Lots of people do this. Surely you can see that. Maybe not. And time and again he rejected Jesus and Christianity in his quotes. So there you have it. Like that article said, you are a holocaust revisionist. You might want to reconsider how evil that is."Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Adolf Hitler
What makes you think these were Christians for where would Jesus do that? So you see you can be like the Devil and accuse the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10), but just like Satan you can't prove it. You concede your atheist brethren above were murderers; I do no such thing with members of the body of Christ. It's like night and day by comparison.Hitler was likely Christian, so I'll include him in the Christian section with question marks, here we go:
Crusades - War - 1,000,000 - 2,000,000
French War of Religion - 2,000,000 - 4,000,000
Thirty Years War - 3,000,000 - 11,500,000
Napoleonic Wars - 3,500,000 - 6,500,000
World War I - 15,000,000 - 65,000,000
Genocide of Hitler - 4,500,000 - 11,000,000 ????
Colonisation of Americas - 2,000,000 - 10,000,000
African Slave Trade - 3,500,000 - 4,000,000
Swedish Deluge - 3,000,000 - 4,000,000
Rwandan Genocide - 500,000 - 1,000,000
German Expulsian WWII - 500,000 - 3,000,000
Belgian Exploitation of the Congo -8,000,000 - 10,000,000
I am glad they weren't Christians just because you say they are. Thank God the universe does not resolve around what you say. Since the Bible says they are not Christians, then what gives you the right to redefine what the Bible says? Seems disingenuous.The amount of death, torture and belligerence involved in Christian history is appalling, what Mao Zedong and Stalin did was atrocious, possibly the worst form of neglect or perhaps heinous political planning, but it does not compare to the appalling behavior of Christians over the last Millenium, who were very ready to physically kill millions of others relentlessly and given enough reason they would even kill each other.
Speaking against the Catholic church automatically makes you a Christian? You got weird ideas. Since Hitler spoke against Jesus and the body of Christ, that is why he is not a Christian. You're not too bright are you?Interesting, considering that Hitler eventually spoke against the Catholic Church when it went against his political aims. He must have been a true Christian.
Careful with your quotes there, many of Hitler's quotes are actually fabricated.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...er-a-christian
To be honest, he was probably neither, but there is enough evidence to say that he was.
Think for yourself. If someone at one time called themselves Christian and at another time denounces Jesus and the Church then that person is just talking out the side of his face. Barack Obama does this. He denounces Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Matthew, yet he calls himself a Christian. He speaks for Muslims defending their faith as a holy and righteous faith. And so likewise with Hitler, in all those quotes I gave you of him speaking against Jesus and the body of Christ, you know the guy was just playing the political field and likely too exhausted to keep putting up the act, so just blurted out what he really believed that he was effectively an atheist like you and antichrist, engaged in natural selection as the only real truth.
Amen. How can heaven's standards be less than our own?Yeah, you've been saying this for a while, I'm starting to seriously think that maybe you really believe it.
Name the individuals who saw Muhammad split the moon like we have for the Bible who saw Jesus alive from the dead. Is it not proven the moon never split since it is not split now? And surely something so far away hardly compares to Jesus up close and personal. Even if there was multiple testimony of moon spitting, surely that is just an illusion. If they believed it, so what? If they didn't lie, what it does say is they truly believed it, maybe even died for it, since they would not willingly die for what they knew was a lie. Likewise the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead, but no naturalistic explanation can account for their testimony. But we can account for moon splitting as just an illusion which occurs with objects in the far off distance. I personally would get far more excited seeing a person alive from the dead than seeing the effects of clouds and light and other natural effects upon the moon.The eye witness accounts are attested for in the books of Bukhari and Sahih Muslim dating back to the 7th and 8th centuries, they contain in themselves countless testimonies from people who saw the moon split with their own eyes and come back together.
And from the point of view that there was no rocket technology to confirm it. You have to understand that rocket technology can't confirm that the moon is broken in half and flying away from each other and then coming back together any more than the actual light reflecting off the moon will.
Furthermore, there was no one around to test Jesus's cranial nerve reflexes to see if he had really died or not. You shouldn't apply something to another religion that you don't apply to yours.
We would have some trace of the moon split in half today, even if it reconstituted itself, but we don't, so you can be silly if you like, but if the best argument you have is silliness, then what does that say of your faith? It's all a big joke.
John places himself with the 3 Mary's at the cross in the book of John. Since he lived long after this writing was produced and he never recanted the testimony, then it is true. You don't even need anyone at the cross. For think about it. If Jesus presents himself to the disciples as resurrected from the grave, he would be a liar, but Islam says he was a great prophet. And a Roman crucifixion is not something you just make up. It is well established. Think. If Jesus is going around and claiming he was risen from the grave, obviously he was put to death on the cross. Or if the disciples were saying our Messiah has died on the cross by Roman crucifixion but now is alive from the dead for we have been with Him, you would think someone would say, they didn't recall any crucifixion of Jesus? What are you talking about, people would say? Pilate would come forth and say, such claims are false, that he never put a person names Jesus, King of the Jews, to death. Instead, the Jews argued someone stole the body from the empty tomb; nobody was contesting the death of Jesus on the cross. They were making excuses for what happened to the body to try to invalidate the appearances to the disciples.
So in conclusion it is readily apparent the atheist always shuts his mind down at some point to reality, which makes him look goofy.
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