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Thread: Why Calvinism is so completely and utterly wrong!

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    You're still involved in idolatry which is Total depravity and it's your point of pride. Since Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world and provides sufficient grace for us all to be able to respond, then none of us are Totally depraved. Amen.

    1 Tim. 4.10 is one of the best verses to help you see the Bible is against Calvinism.
    I have been studing 1 Timothy 4:10 and breaking it down exegetically...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Timothy 4:10 (E.S.V.)
    For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
    The Greek word translated as Savior, means savior in the sense of common deliverer or preserver or blesser. For example, in God's Common grace he lets it rain on both the elect and the reprobates crops and brings them to harvest. God will save a young women from being raped and bring the rapist to civil (and eventual spiritual) justice.

    Thus when the passage states, "especially those who believe" it is then in turn going from a non-soteriological (non-salvation) use to a soteriological (salvation) use.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Exegetical Study 1 Timothy 4:10*
    II. NONSOTERIOLOGlCAL-SOTERlOLOGICAL INTERPRETATION (FREE GRACE SALVATION).

    A. This is the correct interpretation. It is found by making a thorough study of the term "Saviour" (in both its noun and verb forms1) in the context of the chapter, the epistle, the New Testament and the Old Testament.2 The final phrase "specially of those that believe" clearly Indicates that the term is here given a twofold application. Of all men God is the Saviour, but of some men, namely, believers, He is the Saviour in a deeper, more glorious sense than He is of others.

    This clearly implies that when He Is called the Saviour of all men, this cannot mean that He imparts to all everlasting life, as He does to believers. The term "Saviour," then, must have a meaning which we today generally do not immediately attach to it. And that is exactly the cause of the difficulty. Often In the Old Testament, the term meant "to deliver — (verbal form) or deliverer (nominal form)" — both with reference to men and God (cf. Judg. 3:9; II Kings 13:5; Neh. 9:27; Ps. 25:5; 106:21). Also, in the New Testament, reference is made to the Old Testament where God delivered Israel from the oppression of Pharaoh for He had been the Saviour of all, but specially those who believed. With the latter, and with them alone, He was "well pleased" (I Cor. 10:5). All leave Egypt; not all enter Canaan." POINT: In both the Old and New Testaments the term "Saviour" is often used to speak of God's providential preservation or deliverance which extends to all men without exception. (Cf. Ps. 36:6; 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35; Acts 17:25, 28.) Moreover, God also causes His gospel of salvation to be earnestly proclaimed to all men without distinction; that is, to men from every race and nation (Matt. 28:19). Truly the kindness (providence or common grace) of God extends to all. But even the circle of those to whom the message of salvation is proclaimed is wider than those who receive it by a true saving faith.

    B. Conclusion. A paraphrase of what Paul is teaching in I Timothy 4:10 is this: "We have our hope set on the living God, and in this hope we shall not be disappointed, for not only is He a kind God, hence the Saviour (i.e., preserver or deliverer in a providential, non-soteriological sense) of all men, showering blessings upon them, but He is, in a very special sense, the Saviour (in a soteriological sense) of those who by faith embrace Him and His promise, for to them He imparts salvation, everlasting life in all its fulness.
    * Please see http://www.the-highway.com/1Tim4.10.html for the entire article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missionary View Post
    The Greek word translated as Savior, means savior in the sense of common deliverer or preserver or blesser. For example, in God's Common grace he lets it rain on both the elect and the reprobates crops and brings them to harvest. God will save a young women from being raped and bring the rapist to civil (and eventual spiritual) justice.
    Eventually a Calvinist attempts this argument because his back is up against the wall, but the reason it fails is because as Savior of all men it wouldn't make much sense to pour rain down on the reprobate but not rain down with the Holy Spirit to provide salvation to whosoever is willing. Preserving and blessing and delivering a person in this world but sending them to Hell anyway? That is sheer evil and sadistic.

    The context is for salvation not so you can walk your dog in the park: "a good minister of Jesus Christ...we both labour and suffer reproach" (1 Tim. 4.6,10). When the gospel fully reaches all the earth, then Jesus will return. If you deliver the gospel to people who are denied sufficient grace to be able to respond, then you give them false hope. God's not going to do that nor ask anyone to do that. Again, that is sheer evil and sadistic.

    Thus when the passage states, "especially those who believe" it is then in turn going from a non-soteriological (non-salvation) use to a soteriological (salvation) use.
    I don't think those who are going to Hell irresistibly according to your faith would be too pleased to hear about how great your god is that he sustains and blesses them in this world and delivers them from all kinds of problems, but was impotent do more than that when he could have, so it is all in vain anyway since they have to go to Hell. That is sheer evil and sadistic.

    Can you see the pride that engulfs you from worshiping a false God?

    Just realize this. "Specially those who believe" is a subset available from the "Savior of all men" so everyone in the set "of all men" must have the sufficient enabling grace to obtain "those who believe" for "we have also obtained access by faith into this grace" (Rom. 5.2), "for by grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2.8). The gift of faith is given to any who come to God with an honest heart. Think of that. God pleads with you to come to Him with an honest heart and says if you do so, you shall surely find Him. He doesn't say you shall surely find Him because you were irresistibly regenerated.

    This clearly implies that when He Is called the Saviour of all men, this cannot mean that He imparts to all everlasting life, as He does to believers. The term "Saviour," then, must have a meaning which we today generally do not immediately attach to it.
    It does not follow that since God provides the opportunity to be saved to all men or that He doesn't save all, that therefore Savior must exclude dying on the cross for the sins of the whole world. If not everyone is going to be saved, it's because many refuse God's provision to be saved.

    And that is exactly the cause of the difficulty. Often In the Old Testament, the term meant "to deliver — (verbal form) or deliverer (nominal form)" — both with reference to men and God (cf. Judg. 3:9; II Kings 13:5; Neh. 9:27; Ps. 25:5; 106:21).
    The same principle again applies, God is not going to deliver a person in this world from heartache but not then provide a way to be saved if that person is willing. To be delivered from the hands of an enemy is not "delivered from the hands of the enemy, but I will send you to Hell". That's absurd! That is sheer evil and sadistic.

    In those Old Testament passages it is clear the delivering is out of the hands of their enemies, not about salvation. But in Tim. 4.6,10, it's clear the word is about saving souls: "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" NOT "Savior of all men TO LIVE IN THIS WORLD BUT NOT BE SAVED, specially those who believe" for those who believe are subset of "all men" not "all men to live in this world but without salvation". To sustain a person in the world but without any grace to have the opportunity to be saved so they must go to Hell is not much of a Savior. Since it is evil for us to be this way, it is evil for your god and for you to worship such evil.

    Also, in the New Testament, reference is made to the Old Testament where God delivered Israel from the oppression of Pharaoh for He had been the Saviour of all, but specially those who believed.
    The Saviour of all out of Egypt was not exclusive of salvation, otherwise nobody would believe. Saviour of all, therefore, is inclusive of providing the opportunity for any to be saved; that's why we read, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" (John 3.13) given to ALL of Israel not just some in Israel.

    With the latter, and with them alone, He was "well pleased" (I Cor. 10:5). All leave Egypt; not all enter Canaan." POINT: In both the Old and New Testaments the term "Saviour" is often used to speak of God's providential preservation or deliverance which extends to all men without exception. (Cf. Ps. 36:6; 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35; Acts 17:25, 28.) Moreover, God also causes His gospel of salvation to be earnestly proclaimed to all men without distinction; that is, to men from every race and nation (Matt. 28:19). Truly the kindness (providence or common grace) of God extends to all. But even the circle of those to whom the message of salvation is proclaimed is wider than those who receive it by a true saving faith.
    Why limit common grace and the gospel to only some men from every race and nation? If God wants none to perish, then He will do everything possible to saved every last one of us. For He is a just and righteous God! But if some people are denied sufficient mercy to have the opportunity to be saved yet is preached to everyone, then that makes your god sheer evil and sadistic, taunting and berating them when your god made them unable to respond. The reason why salvation preached to the whole world is wider than those who receive is not because they are denied the grace and mercy of God, but because of their own sovereign free will, despite all God's pleading and convicting, they still refuse such as yourself to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. And that is very sad.

    A paraphrase of what Paul is teaching in I Timothy 4:10 is this: "We have our hope set on the living God, and in this hope we shall not be disappointed, for not only is He a kind God, hence the Saviour (i.e., preserver or deliverer in a providential, non-soteriological sense) of all men, showering blessings upon them, but He is, in a very special sense, the Saviour (in a soteriological sense) of those who by faith embrace Him and His promise, for to them He imparts salvation, everlasting life in all its fullness.
    What kindness is there in saving people for Hell? While you reject God of the Bible who is able and does provide sufficient grace to the whole world, you remain unsaved assuming pridefully you were irresistibly selected without having had to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated.

    This is why Christians are turned off by you because we can always sense your pride and pomp. We prefer the lowliness and meekness in Christ that flows from having truly repented and believed in Christ to truly be regenerated according to God's will. Amen.

    Conclusion: doesn't make much sense to say "Savior of all men but without sufficient grace to believe, specially those who believe" for obviously, those who specially believe are said to come from those without sufficient grace to believe. Funny. It is self-contradictory if you read it that way. Obviously "those who believe" as a subset of "all men" who could "believe" as those that do. Plus the context is "a good minister of Jesus Christ...we both labour and suffer reproach" (1 Tim. 4.6,10) delivering the gospel. It's not talking about there being enough water on the planet or enough land to grow food or the ability to procreate to maintain life or escaping the Pharaoh. Any reading of Scripture that is self-contradictory is false. Hence, Calvinism is a false teaching and the belief system of false Christians. Always remember, if God is big enough to let the rain drop on both the saved and unsaved, He is able to provide sufficient grace to both as well. "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?" (John 3.12).

    "We work hard and suffer much in order that people will believe the truth, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and particularly of those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10 NLT). The Savior of all people is in pertaining to the Gospel of Salvation that people would believe the truth. Putting the Old Testament aside of Israel being delivered from oppression, the Greek word is soter for soteriology in the New Testament.

    The essence of the whole Bible is "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2.2). This is a great and glorious God that He can do this. But your god cannot, because he is impotent to be able to do so. Even worse, if not impotent then unwilling. Satan is not willing and does not want God to save to the uttermost with resistible grace to give us the choice, to save the most and damn the least.

    Let the whole Bible agree with itself:

    "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2.4-6).

    Only the Savior of the whole world would have all men be saved! Praise the Lord!

  3. #13
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    You are using the phrase, "Savior of all men", to discredit Calvinism. HOWEVER you refuse to stick to the way you are using it when you apply it to your beliefs. Unless you are a universalist, you are accepting that the word "Soter" or savior can mean more than just one thing. You inconsistency knows no bounds. Unless you are saying that you believe that Universalism is true, you can't use this verse to say Calvinism is wrong because you yourself say that in actuality not all people are saved. Especially in light of the fact you keep telling me I am going to hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missionary View Post
    You are using the phrase, "Savior of all men", to discredit Calvinism. HOWEVER you refuse to stick to the way you are using it when you apply it to your beliefs. Unless you are a universalist, you are accepting that the word "Soter" or savior can mean more than just one thing. You inconsistency knows no bounds. Unless you are saying that you believe that Universalism is true, you can't use this verse to say Calvinism is wrong because you yourself say that in actuality not all people are saved. Especially in light of the fact you keep telling me I am going to hell.
    God wants you to see "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) shows clearly Calvinism cannot be true. "Savior of all men" is in relation to "specially those who believe" so that "Savior of all men" can't be universalism otherwise the text doesn't make sense which would read according to your universalism idea, "Savior of all men who believe, specially those who believe." Don't you see that as redundantly nonsensical? You're accusing me of not contradicting myself? Thanks for the compliment.

    I am not sticking to the way I use it when I apply it to my beliefs!? My belief is that it would be a contradiction as shown in the above paragraph if "Savior of all men" meant universalism. Nor can it mean what you think it means: "Savior of all men but without sufficient grace to believe, specially those who believe" which is also nonsensical since "specially those that believe" in your interpretation are said to come from those without sufficient grace to believe. By such a view you admit they don't have grace but are saved anyway!?

    Hence, only one possibility remains, "God who is the Savior of all men, specially those that believe" for God provides sufficient grace to all men. That's what it means to be a Savior who died on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Not for some sins or some people, but all people (an unlimited atonement). Expect nothing less from a perfect God. Your god can't do this so God of the Bible trumps your god. A Savior is someone who provides salvation. That's what Jesus did for us on the cross. Why does that offend you? Because you admit you never repented and believed in Christ to be regenerated by this wonderfully amazing great God!

    Plus, observe, you have a doublestandard because apparently you think Savior means everyone has to be saved, so you accuse someone of not being a universalist when you apparently are not a universalist. I thought you were suppose to treat others as you would like to be treated. Not only your contradictions expose your false teaching but so do your doublestandards.

    For you God is not allowed to provide salvation which is why you worship the evil spirit and demons of Calvinism. Your god has to save irresistibly, but where does it say that in the Scriptures? The reason you are going to Hell very simply a child can understand is because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated by erecting an idol called Totally depravity so you can selfishly claim you can't repent and believe, so you won't; instead pompously you assume you are saved irresistibly, exalting yourself above what you think are the damned from birth with no grace given to have the opportunity to be saved. Sick!

    "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel'" (Mark 1.15). He's pleading with you, with all peoples. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3.19). Jesus is pleading with you and you keep telling Him you can't but you seem strong enough to be able to assume you were irresistibly selected. Don't you see how obnoxious that is? Do you really think God is pleading with with people who are already regenerated so they will repent and believe to be saved? Regeneration is salvation: new birth, eternal life, OSAS, initial salvation, born-again, etc.

    You're a bad guy. Calvinists are false Christians worshiping a false Christ. Plain and simple. Not so simple for a Calvinist who is stuck in his head while his spirit remains dead to God. In the next minute you could literally receive Christ instead of clinging onto a false and selfish salvation. If you truly did then you will not say you were irresistibly graced, unconditionally elected and part of a limited atonement. Your conscience will begin to sense the pride that goes with the unsatisfying ideas of Calvinism you once clung on to.

  5. #15
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    Default Just a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    Of all the verses in the Bible, I can find none more powerful than this, to expose a calvinist, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" (Rom. 8.29).

    They change "foreknow" to "know" because they can't have God foreknowing our free choice ("whosoevereth" John 3.16) made in His image.
    Maybe sir you should go back to the original greek text and translate. You see, foreknow and predestinate actually come from the same greek root. And do you know what sybol is at the beginning of the word? the symbol for love. Because God lovingly CHOSE those who would come to him. Let me ask you a series of questions. Did God choose adam to be the first human? Did God elect angels?(1Tim. 5:21) Did God choose Abraham to be the father of israel? Did God choose Israel? Then WHY can God not choose Christians? You cheat and create a new God based off your opinion, not the holy scriptures. I believe in a just sovereign God. You do not believe that God is sovereign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lovingbrotherofChrist View Post
    Maybe sir you should go back to the original greek text and translate. You see, foreknow and predestinate actually come from the same greek root. And do you know what sybol is at the beginning of the word? the symbol for love. Because God lovingly CHOSE those who would come to him. Let me ask you a series of questions. Did God choose adam to be the first human? Did God elect angels?(1Tim. 5:21) Did God choose Abraham to be the father of israel? Did God choose Israel? Then WHY can God not choose Christians? You cheat and create a new God based off your opinion, not the holy scriptures. I believe in a just sovereign God. You do not believe that God is sovereign.
    Where did I say God foreknowing and predestinating are the same thing?

    God chooses Christians but He doesn't have to be an evil tyrant irresistibly imposing regeneration. He enjoys fellowship, thus, giving us the free choice. Your god can't do that. Your god sucks. Such a god is not sovereign like God of the Bible.

    Since God pleads with you and implores you to believe in Him, obviously, this is not a charade, but He has given you the free choice.

    My prayer is one day you stop worshiping your false Christ and give your like to Christ Jesus. Amen.

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    I would like to understand the meaning of repentance. Is it a change of mind or a total turning away from all known sin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky View Post
    I would like to understand the meaning of repentance. Is it a change of mind or a total turning away from all known sin?
    Why does it have to be mutually exclusive?

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