Is this theory proof that God created the universe from nothing?

[ibiskos]

Hello.

I've looked around and seen threads about Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose's theory that gives proof that the universe was created from nothing. If that's so, then wouldn't that also prove that the Bible was right? That God created everything, just as Genesis says?

Thanks.

Ibiskos.

[Churchwork]

Yes.

The best proof I have ever seen for God existing and creating the universe from Himself (not out of nothing) is the following. If there was the alleged infinite regress of cause and effects of nature then by that definition we would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. And we would never exist because a past eternity would go on forever, thus, never reaching this point now. These two aspects of eternity are independently false and contradict each other. That which contradicts itself is false! Therefore, nature needs a cause outside itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator is Whom we call God. Thus, the idea of a past eternity is a man made concept. The next question is Who has the correct claim on God? We can talk about the Christian God vs. other faiths after we realize the uncreated Creator exists.

[ibiskos]

Oh, thank you for confirming that Hawking and Penrose scientifically proved the origin of the universe from nothing, Churchwork.

Do you know where I can find their theory, so that I can see it for myself?

Thank you.

Ibiskos.

[Churchwork]

I don't have their information.

The Bible doesn't say the universe was created from nothing, but rather that it was created from God Himself. Something can't come from nothing.

[ibiskos]

Ok, thanks for that correction, Churchwork.

So, if the Hawking - Penrose theory is scientifically proven, then that must mean that science agrees with and confirms the Bible, right?

I've found their theory, btw. Can I post a link to it when my post count reaches 5?


Thanks.

Ibiskos.

[Churchwork]

Of course. Hawking considered himself an atheist so he didn't believe in God as creator of time and space. He said, "if there were a God, which there isn’t. I’m an atheist.”

https://time.com/5199149/stephen-haw...h-god-atheist/

How can Penrose-Hawking provide a proof through science God exists and yet not be a theist?

As far as I can tell they claim the universe started spontaneously from nothing, which of course is false, since something can't come from nothing. That which does not exist can't cause anything. Nothing always comes from nothing. We exist, therefore, we are something.

[ibiskos]

Hello again Churchwork.

I'm sorry, but I can't really say why Hawking remained an atheist, even after he co-wrote a theory that agrees with the Bible.

Thank you.

Ibiskos.

[Churchwork]

Hello again Churchwork.

I'm sorry, but I can't really say why Hawking remained an atheist, even after he co-wrote a theory that agrees with the Bible.

Thank you.

Ibiskos.

Since he is quoted as saying he is an atheist, the burden is on you to show otherwise if you want to claim otherwise.

I don't think he wrote anything that agrees with the Bible since he taught something from nothing, whereas the Bible teaches nature comes from something. No spontaneous generation.

Let's quote what you said, "Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose's theory that gives proof that the universe was created from nothing."

I don't see how their theory proves something from nothing, so I will leave that up to you display if you want, leaving the burden on you.

Remember, the Bible teaches and PROVES the universe was created by the uncreated Creator. Period! Not something from nothing. That which does not exist can't cause anything; non-existence can't produce existence.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1.20 KJV).

"For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God" (1.20 NLT).

The proof is embedded in verse 20, you just have to think it through. How by observing nature do we know God exists? What is it about nature that proves God exists and something in nature can't come from nothing?

There is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that since nature always has a cause (we observe this over and over trillions of times and no hard evidence to the contrary) nature needs a cause outside itself outside of time and space being uncreated, because an infinite regress of nature is impossible and something in nature can't come from nothing. The reason an infinite regress of nature is impossible is because you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. So anyone who wants to claim an eternal regress of cause and effects of nature and past eternity of time contradicts what we know scientifically.

In our interaction, I said "The Bible doesn't say the universe was created from nothing, but rather that it was created from God Himself." You responded, "Ok, thanks for that correction, Churchwork." So instead of observing that correction, you made the same mistake again by saying "he co-wrote a theory that agrees with the Bible." What you are essentially saying is you think Hawking-Penrose agree with the Bible yet you fail to observe the "correction" that the Bible does not say something comes from nothing.

I realize you may be confused by what I am saying, but it is perfectly clear to me.

[ibiskos]

Yes Churchwork, I did say that "Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose's theory that gives proof that the universe was created from nothing."

However, if you refer back to post 5 I thanked you for your correction. If it wasn't clear what I was thanking you for, then I apologize and I will now make it clear. I thanked you for pointing out that the Bible doesn't say that the universe was created from nothing. Those were wise words and I now see the truth of them. I now agree with you. The universe was not created from nothing.

The point I was trying to make about the Hawking - Penrose theory was that it agrees with Bible in the very same as you outlined in post 2 - that the universe cannot be eternal. That there had to be a definite beginning, just as described in the book of Genesis. This is where the theory and the Bible agree. The theory proves that the universe cannot be eternal, exactly as you pointed out and exactly as the Bible says.

So, it looks like Hawking and Penrose got it right, when they said that the universe isn't eternal, but they got it wrong when they said it was created out of nothing. Please note that what they think and what I think are two different things. I've agreed with you about the universe not being eternal and I've agreed with you that it wasn't created out of nothing.

Thank you.

Ibiskos.

[Churchwork]

Well said. I agree.

What are we going to do about Hawking and Penrose that they refuse to accept the uncreated Creator and prefer instead to believe the universe came from nothing? It seems like such an obvious mistake that they can't accept, and frankly seems absurd their claim something from nothing. How can such smart people be so blatantly obviously wrong? But then if you really think about it, how else are they going to reject God without invoking some weird idea, since the very premise of rejecting God is itself absurd?

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. (Ps. 14.1)

Without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him. (Heb. 11.6)

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3.19-20)