Pre-Trib. Readiness

[Churchwork]

1 Thess. 4.17 does not take place before the Tribulation. "Lord himself shall descend from heaven" (v.16) takes place at the end of the Tribulation. "To meet the Lord in the air" (v.17) occurs at the start of the 7th trumpet, whereas "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) takes place before the 1st trumpet (8.7) of the Tribulation is blown. And, of course, the first rapture is according to readiness according to the conditional statements of Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, and Rev. 3.10.

Part of the confusion will stem from the idea Rev. 4 is the rapture. No! Rev. 4 is the picture of Heaven. Rev. 5 recounts the cross. And Rev. 6 are the past 20 centuries concurrent with the church age in Rev. 2 & 3. Revelation is the easiest book of the Bible to understand.

Some argue that according to I Thess. 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” - The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth.

Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth.

One group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

Revelation is even more exacting than that. Rev. 9 says the 1st woe is 5 months, 2nd woe is 13 months; therefore, the 3rd woe must be 24 months. So we know after the 42 months in Rev. 8 of the first half of the 7 year Tribulation there is 5 months + 13 months more before the 7th trumpet resurrection and rapture, leaving 24 months of the 7th trumpet. After all this then Jesus steps down on the mount of Olives (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7).

[rod.ney]

The Caught Up of 1 Thess.4:17 is in FACT prior to the start of Dan.9:27 ( the AC revealing himself as he kicks off that seven by confirming the covenant ) because Rev.19:7-8 shows them all in heaven ( in their Glorified bodies - Philippians 3:21 ) getting ready for His wedding PRIOR to His Post-Trib. ( Matt.24:29-32/Rev.19:11-21& 20:1-6 ) return to REIGN in Jerusalem ( Isaiah 24:23 ) and resurrect the beheaded Trib. saints as Priests to Reign with Him for 1000 years! Yes there is also a Mid-Trib. Caught Up of the Two witnesses ( Only - no one else ) of Rev. chapter 11! The Holy Spirit does the restraining mentioned in 2 Thess.2:1-8 and He does it by WORKING through the body of Christ ( those of 1 Thess.4:17 ) that He dwells in as per 1 Cor.6:19! The Only entity that scriptures show getting TAKEN or Caught Up are those of 1 Thess.4:17! Any other entity such as Michael the Arch angel would NOT get Taken out of the way at the Father's appointed time. God the Father would just tell them that it is time for Dan.9:27 to get started and they would just remove them-self and not get snatched out of the way by God! So yes indeed 1 Thess.4:17 are those Taken in 2 Thess.2:7-8! That is why they are then in heaven for the wedding of the Lamb ( Jesus ), while the final 7 years od Daniel's 70 sevens are Transpiring on earth! NO one gets Caught Up to heaven at Christ's Post-Trib. return to earth at the Mt. of Olives ( Zech.14:4/Acts 1:11b ) because those resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 as Priests, stay on earth to REIGN with Jesus for those 1000 Years!

[Churchwork]

You didn't address the reasons I gave why 1 Thess. 4.17 is at the end of the Tribulation, that is, the 7th Trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15.50-52. Whether dead or living, all will be raptured. Yet, again, it presents the fact of rapture without specifying a time sequence that would indicate a pre-tribulation rapture. On the contrary, it can be used to prove a post-tribulation rapture. “At the last trump” is a descriptive phrase that is equal to the seventh trumpet cited in Revelation 11.15. Some people advance the theory that according to Roman custom the trumpets are sounded three times. But the Holy Spirit follows no Roman law.

Jeremiah 30.6-7. “The time of Jacob’s trouble” - The Great Tribulation is only for the Jews, not for the Gentiles or for the church some claim. Since the church is not the Jews, we therefore will not go through the Great Tribulation. See also Daniel 12.1. If there were only these two passages in the entire Bible which speak of the Great Tribulation, then the Great Tribulation would indeed be exclusively for the Jews. But we can read other passages in the Bible, such as Revelation 3 which speaks of “the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (v.10). The prophecies of Jeremiah and Daniel were directed toward the Jews, and hence they used such words “Jacob” and “Thy people” quite logically.

Revelation 19 takes place after the first rapture and after the 7th trumpet rapture/resurrection in Rev. 11.15 so of course, there are those in heaven by the time Jesus returns to step down on the mount of olives.

The Two Witnesses Enoch and Elijah resurrected and raptured is not a mid-trib event per se, but when they are raised 3.5 days later this also points to all saints in the Tribulation that were not taken at the first rapture so when they are martyred they like the Two Witnesses will be resurrected and raptured. All throughout the Tribulation period when a believer is martyred he will be resurrected and raptured 3.5 days later, not at a specific time of mid-trib.

2 Thessalonians 2.1-9. Please read this passage very carefully. Verse 1 gives the topic of this passage - namely, the coming of Christ and rapture. Since the rapture spoken of here is a being gathered in the air, there is already a hint as to its being after tribulation. In verse 2, the word “spirit” signifies another spirit, not the Holy Spirit; the term “word” means rumor; “us” refers to Paul, Silvanus and Timothy; and “the day of the Lord” is the day of the coming of Christ and rapture. In those days there were people who deluded the Thessalonian believers by saying that the day of the Lord had already come and that they had been left behind. Yet verse 3 shows that this day will not arrive until after the following two signs: (1) that before rapture, there will appear the man of sin, the son of perdition, who is the Antichrist; and (2) that there will first come the falling away, which is apostasy. When will the man of sin be revealed? It will naturally be at the Great Tribulation, So that rapture will be after this Tribulation. At least part of the church must go through the Great Tribulation.

You didn't address anything I said in my post. Makes for a one way conversation. You didn't even address the conditional statements for the first rapture in Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10). Only those who keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful get to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world.

By the way you can nip your beliefs in the but by easily seeing Rev. 4.1 is not a rapture, but simply John taken up in the spirit. And the 24 elders are 24 archangels. 24 is never the number of the Church.