Quote Originally Posted by Atheist
First point: I made the claim that you can only verify observable data. Observable doesn't mean you have to your eyes. That's science.

Second point: Russell's teapot is saying that an unobservable magic teapot orbiting mars has absolutely no effect on him whatsoever. The wackos who try to force that view on him are something else entirely.

Third point:I never said God did or did not exist. He's just a magic teapot for all I care.

Fourth point: Again, Russell's teapot --> I don't care that you want you me to believe in your magic little buddy.

Fifth point: About lack of imagination... please try to provide an example where the application of an identity law is paradoxical. Because if you can, you contradict your own argument. If you can't, well that's something else....

Also Slavery:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Fuck your God for condoning slavery.

Sixth Point: The circle example is a response to your claim that logical constructs do not need a creation. Hence the Platonic ideal of a circle is eternal. It has neither beginning nor end. Ohhhhhmmmm.

Lastly: Don't care. Russell's teapot again.
First Point: Science does verify what is observable. God is verified to exist. I am glad you agree it is not just what you see with your eyes. So that's science - what is evidenced. What is evidenced is we observe trillions of cause and effects in nature and no hard evidence of something from nothing. Therefore, nature needs a cause outside itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator is what we refer to as God. Now you know. Inherently, we all know this, but some prefer to shut their minds down due to their preference for their self-centered and selfish nature that pretends they are unaccountable.

Second Point: An unobservable magical teapot. This claim comes with no evidence so it is like anyone can say anything. I only care about what is evidenced. What is evidenced is the uncreated Creator that brought nature into being. You've admitted you could care less about the evidence, but at the end of the day, all delusions eventually break down and the consequences must be administered, for God is righteous, holy and just. We put people in jail for life for just this reason.

Third Point: You are saying now you are not taking the position that God does or does not exist which would no longer make you Atheist but Agnostic. Of course, being Agnostic is no different than what Jesus said, If you are not for Him, you are against Him. "He that is not with me is against me" (Matt. 12.30). You could care less whether He exists or not or whether you have the right interpretation of God or not. You're free to believe what you wish, but you are "without excuse" (Rom. 1.20). "That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Rom. 1.19-22). The evidence as we have seen proves God exists, therefore, you harbor a delusion. Since a mind is needed to create a mind, God of the Bible trumps your teapot and your FSM or whatever else you want to place up against God. Each time you lose.

Fourth Point: The point of Russell's teapot is not that he doesn't care, but that there is no evidence for the teapot. Whereas the evidence was given to you for the uncreated Creator. Now the question is, Where does God reveal Himself since we know He exists? As before, not in accessible Hinduism or Islam, only Christianity, because the first two accessible faiths have been proven false.

Fifth Point: The burden is not on me to show the identity law is paradoxical, it is on you since you make the claim.

Sixth Point: Logical constructs do need a creation. I never said otherwise. A circle that always exist is subject to cause and effect so it could not always have existed. Moreover, there can be true circle in your sense because when you come around the circle it is no longer at time t but t + [the time it took to go around]. And it can be said that point is not the same point in reality for it is at another time. The circle needs a cause because we have evidence for causation only. While it may have no end, it needs a beginning because it could not always have existed. The you that you are now is the only now that you are you, so no circle.

Seventh Point: Since we are all sinners, sin leads to death and the second death which eternally separates you from God, and you can never cease to exist being made in God's image, then the only solution is Hell. This is enabling free choice. Free will is not truly free if you don't have the free choice to be with God or to be eternally separated in Hell where the worm never dies and no rest day or night. This is the maximally great God for not to have this free choice is lesser or even unholy.

Eighth Point: God is not condoning slavery, but He is putting up with it for a time. For example, Israel was enslaved 430 years then the 10 plagues finally released Israel from Egyptian slavery. He is reconciling all things for the good of those that love Him. If God's ultimate is slavery as you suggest then why would God release Israel from slavery? “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Ex. 21.16).

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" (1 Tim. 1.8-10). "He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord" (Phil. 1.16).

"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so" (Matt. 19.8). God allowed slavery in the OT for a time due to the hardness of peoples' hearts. Also, Israel would not have survived as a nation to bring in the Messiah without these laws. Back then slavery was the common staple of all nations. It was a barbaric time. If we could transport you back into that time it would give you an appreciation of what life was like and why slavery was part of the system back then. All is history now. The Messiah a Jew was born. God worked within a fallen system. As Israel was surrounded by nations that practiced slavery, Israel did also, but with much more compassion as you quoted those verses. Today, slavery is outlawed. We are in the dispensation of grace.

Nineth Point: Russell cared, albeit selfishly, but he was delusional. You don't care which is fine, but since God is proven to not care is delusional and selfish. God gives you this free choice. But you would not be allowed in the New City and New Earth because you would be unhealthy to be around. A loving God would never allow that.

Good talk.