Quote Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Both Calvinism and Arminianism understand God to give grace to sinners before they are born-again. For the Calvinist its irresistible grace, for the Arminian its prevenient grace. Both types of grace are given to sinners without their consent, and both result in the ability to choose Christ, an ability that does not reside in sinners naturally.
Irresistible grace is not given to the sinner, nor would that give the person the ability to choose.

But I think we Arminians are in the same boat here. God could convince everyone, or at least a lot more people than he actually does, to come to faith in Christ of their own freewill. He could appear to them like he did to Saul on the road to Damascus, or he could perform healing miracles, or send angels, or write the gospel message in the clouds, etc. But for his own reasons he chooses not to do so, as is his right to do. For both the Calvinist as well as the Arminian, God restrains his self-revelation to sinners (not that he is obligated to do otherwise).
Arminians are not in the same boat as Calvinists. The way God does things is perfectly righteous. Asking Him to do more than that would not be. And Paul could have rejected Jesus. You can say God is obligated to perform the way He does because He is obligated to do things perfectly being perfect in Himself.

So are you saying God intervened in the Garden to prevent Adam and Eve from sinning? How? And if he did not, why not?
Adam and Eve did sin in the Garden.

So then we seem to agree that God is culpable for the Fall, at least in a non-sinful way. I’m not sure how receiving sufficient prevenient grace when I don’t want it is all that different from irresistible grace of the Calvinists. Can you clarify? Sorry, I’m still sort of new to all these distinctions.
God is not culpable for the Fall in the sense you think. He is culpable only in the sense that He affords man the free choice to fall. You're made in God's image and given sufficient grace. Not wanting something after it is already given to you is entirely delusional. It would be like a dog asking God to not be a dog, but some other animal. Sufficient grace is different from irresistible grace in that the latter doesn't give you the free choice, and not giving you the free choice is basically robots. The latter does not glorify God when He can and does do the former. So God trumps your god every time because your god can't do what God does which is far better.

I’ve heard this Calvinist argue that God is not arbitrary in election or reprobation, that he has a reason for choosing as he does. And I’ve heard him say that man’s depravity limits his freedom (he’s not merely sick in sin, he is dead in sin, to use Paul’s characterization) until it is renewed by the Holy Spirit. That depravity is what necessitates God’s grace in the first place (whether it is construed as irresistible or prevenient). I’m still chewing on all that.
You are depraved but not totally depraved. "Dead" in the Bible means disassociation from life or cessation of communication, not Total inability. You can still help an old lady across the street and so you still have free will though it has been damaged. Sufficient grace by the Holy Spirit is given to make the choice, to search God out with all your heart and soul so that you shall surely find Him. If willing, God will give you the gift of repentance and faith to believe in Him to be regenerated and receive eternal life which can never be lost. In Calvinism its god is arbitrary and capricious because it saves and sends people to Hell irresistibly giving them no opportunity to have the free choice. What love is that?

I couldn't acknowledge you as a brother in Christ or break bread with you unless you came to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior to be regenerated. If you came to me and instead said that you were regenerated that caused you to repent and believe, I would rebuke you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That's my responsible role to do so.

It’s my understanding that most people today who claim to be Arminians also reject perseverance of the saints, even if Arminius himself did not. I think that is the common view over at the Society of Evangelical Arminians, for example. But no matter, theological labels are not a big deal to me. I don’t believe a genuine believer can lose his salvation, that much at least I think Calvinism has right. And though genuine believers started out as a little flock, they will grow into such a great multitude that no one can count (Rev. 7:9). Praise God!
You would be wrong. Jacob Arminius said never once did he ever teach a person could lose salvation. That's what he said. There are no Arminians who don't accept preservation of the saints; otherwise they would be Remonstrants. Whatever common or popular view of things is, it doesn't matter, because Arminius said what he said. So don't sin bearing false witness against him. Non-OSASers are Remonstrants.

Calvinists have it wrong, because we are not once-saved-always-saved by being irresistibly forced into it, or pridefully proclaiming on a pedestal that it is so. Rather, we whom are saved are saved because we gave our lives to the God who keeps, knowing we can't keep ourselves saved, for salvation is not by works lest any man should boast. Moreover, Calvinists use the phrase not preservation of the saints but "Perseverance of the Saints" as if salvation is kept by working for it, persevering for it. Such language doesn't on its face fit what Calvinist really believe. What they really mean is that they were irresistibly made to persevere, which again, is robots. God wants fellowship not with robots, but humans made in His image with sufficient grace to have the free choice; something your god will never be able to do.

The body of Christ always remains a "little flock" (Luke 12.32) in terms of the total number of human beings who ever lived. Though Rev. 7.9 may not include all those who are saved it is at least 200,000,000 as the largest number in the Bible. But since the New City is 1379 x 1379 miles, one might thing that could comfortably fit a billion saved souls. But that is a little flock compared to say 50 billion since Adam and another 250 billion in millennial kingdom. 1 / 300 is a little flock.

If you ask what the most popular teachings in Christendom are today, one could say Calvinism, Remonstrant, Historicism (Preterism, Postmill, Amill) and Gibberish Babble (Pentecostalism).