4 Step Proof for God of the Bible

[Churchwork]

A Help for Juliet to See Beyond Self

Facts:
- no problem was found with the 4 Step Proof so to not agree is showing one's hostility to common sense.
- it is a fairy-tale notion the universe happened all by itself and that anything in nature could happen all by itself.
- all things have a cause and effect.
- since nature did not create itself, it must have been created by the uncreated creator.
- since you still sin, you know you have not had an eternity of the past to be perfected; therefore, you and the universe were created.
- the God is the God of the Bible for many reasons that none can compare to: eyewitness testimony of His resurrection in about a eleven different group settings, Christ fulfilled 62 prophecies, unparalled miracles, unparalleled teaching, eyewitnesses were martyred for their testimony of His resurrection, the tomb was empty, James a family skeptic was converted because he saw Jesus resurrected, Paul an outsider skeptic converted because he saw Jesus resurrected, Jesus was sinless and selfless to the best of our knowledge all the way to the cross, He claimed His deity, He knew Christianity would be the greatest religion the world will ever see, and there is no lack of documentation to support all this data.
- when you accuse falsely it gives the accused more strength in Christ.
- when you use lame reasoning, inadvertently you lead people to Christ by convincing them they don't want to be like you.
- when you have no evidence for your claims, this empowers Christians.
- when you accuse with your petty self in a spirit of dissension, it makes you look bad, helps those who are thinking of coming to Christ; and increases the faith of Christians seeing an atheist act that way.
- Juliet does not want to be saved because she or he is a sinner and likes being in sin and way of being to not receive redemption.
- we are all born into sin, but we are all made in God's image (Gen. 1.26,27) with a spirit of God-consciousness (Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23, Luke 1.46,47) so we are without excuse.
- to have a fair and equitable solution for salvation, God does not need people to be rocket scientists or scholars to observe the Proof of God, so the proof of the need to be redeemed by Christ Jesus should be quite simple for anyone to understand as God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34). If someone with all kinds of knowledge can't accept the simple truth, well that just shows how puffed up he is in that knowledge.
- for atheists, before you can ever accept Jesus being God as your Lord and Savior, you would first need to accept the proof of creation.
- how can you accept God's Son on the cross to receive forgiveness of sins, if you still cannot even see that the universe was created and needs a creator?
- if a small child can understand such simple things and you can't, realize it is because your spirit has been smothered by your soul in its hardness.
- even the most famous atheist Antony Flew realized this finally in his old age when he could no longer accept the corrupted and evil idea of man's atheism, because the proof for creation and a creator was too overwhelming.
- don't wait as long as he did, because though you may turn from atheism to deism, you still will need to turn from deism to Christ, but the longer you wait, the more difficult it becomes.
- two famous debates were conducted between Dr. Gary R. Habermas and Antony Flew, 15 years apart, and the moderators unanimously concluded Habermas won easily both times. This is what convinced Antony to relinquish atheism.
- if you wait too long, the hardness of your soul will have so smothered your spirit's sensitivity, that it makes it almost impossible to be born-again at that late stage as the flesh lusts against the Spirit.
- don't let overassuming pride ruin you and separate you from God, for judgment is inevitable.
- the question of your outcome, if you are still unsaved, is not set (from our perspective) until you leave your body of flesh and blood. Whether you are resurrected to the judgment seat for Christians or, separated by a thousand years (Rev. 20.2-7) for the great white throne to be judged and cast into hell is THE choice God gives you. He does everything possible with His way of doing things to convince you not to go there.

My prayers go out to you.
Thank you Jesus,
Amen.

[Faithful]

Juliet,

You need to read the Word of God. Read what Paul said (and Gal. 1.16, God was "pleased to reveal His Son in me" during the 3 years when he learned about Jesus and grew spritually after His Damascus road experience of seeing the resurrected Lord),

Acts 13.29 "When they had fulfilled all the prophecies concerning his death, they took him down from the cross and placed him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead! 31 And he appeared over a period of many days to those who had gone with him from Galilee to Jerusalem-these are his witnesses to the people of Israel.

32 "And now Barnabas and I are here to bring you this Good News. God's promise to our ancestors has come true in our own time, 33 in that God raised Jesus. This is what the second psalm is talking about when it says concerning Jesus,

`You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.*' Or Today I reveal you as my Son. Ps 2:7.

34 For God had promised to raise him from the dead, never again to die. This is stated in the Scripture that says, `I will give you the sacred blessings I promised to David.'*Isa 55:3. 35 Another psalm explains more fully, saying, `You will not allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.'*Ps 16:10. 36 Now this is not a reference to David, for after David had served his generation according to the will of God, he died and was buried, and his body decayed. 37 No, it was a reference to someone else-someone whom God raised and whose body did not decay.

38 "Brothers, listen! In this man Jesus there is forgiveness for your sins. 39 Everyone who believes in him is freed from all guilt and declared right with God-something the Jewish law could never do. 40 Be careful! Don't let the prophets' words apply to you. For they said,

41
`Look, you mockers,
be amazed and die!
For I am doing something in your own day,
something you wouldn't believe
even if someone told you about it.'* "Hab 1:5.

[Churchwork]

Rambo123UK,

even if it were proven that humans (or any other creature) were working towards 'perfection' then this would only prove that we had not existed forever. Since it is known that the big bang can be placed between 13 and 20 billion years ago, that the solar system formed some 4.6 billion years ago, that hominins split from the ape lineage somewhere in excess of 6 million years ago, the genus Homo appeared in the region of 2.8 million years ago and that physiologically modern human being came into being somewhere around 125,000 years ago, then this fact is patently obvious. In any case, we can imagine such a progression towards perfection as an asymptotically flat curve - it starts out as a steep progression but then flattens out so that it would take an infinite time to reach perfection

We know when the body of dust (Gen. 2.7) was forming the last 13.7 billion years to reach its point of God's desire about 6000 years ago when we were made in His image (spirit, soul and body) in the first Adam. But included in that forming of dust includes any other causes before the universe since nothing in nature happens all by itself, but is always preceded by yet another cause. This has been our experience in things we did not know the cause, but later discovered it. Just because something is vastly complicated does not mean it happens all by itself. That would be very presumptuous and lacking significant humility.
So if there had been an eternity of the past of our body forming, then surely we would be without sin by now since we can see just in these past 6000 years that there has been an exponential progression in our conscience.
The demarcation point of Adam and the pre-Adamic man is that Adam will be resurrected and pre-Adamic men will just cease to exist. Even if you don't want to be saved and go to hell, you still have to be resurrected because you are made in God's image (Gen. 1.26,27).
The exponential curve in the improvement of our conscience increases so that it approximates infinity. This shows it will not take a billion years, a million years or even 6000 years more to reach sinlessness in the saved, though the unsaved will always remain separated from God to be locked in hell forever. Do a calculation yourself by seeing the number of murders per capita each century going back the past 6000 years.
Conclusion remains: we were created and so was the universe since the dust is part of the universe that we are made out of.

More to the point, this "proof" presupposes that the biblical god exists, and that 'sin' is real. Any serious proof of the existence of god cannot use this as a starting point.

The 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible makes no assumption first about if God exists or if Jesus is God, but through the Proof we discover that Jesus is God. The burden of the proof is on you to show otherwise. Sin is not assumed either, but we obviously put people in jail because they do wrong. This is sin as are many other kinds. I am glad your qualification for a starting point has been met in the 4 Step Proof.

Much as you might not like it, quantum mechanics can be acausal. The early universe, if you think back and reverse the big bang process, must have once been smaller than the planck length - and thus also causality would not have applied. Taking it further, it would follow that the start of the universe could be likened to a naked singularity - and again, causality and in fact, normal physical laws - do not apply here. You might not like it, but your refusal to accept quantum mechanical principles marks you out as an ostrich. You stick your head in the sand when confronted with things you don't want to see or hear. Quantum mechanics is the most heavilly tested scientific theory there is, and proven to give the most accurate results.

Quantum mechanics has never been proven to be acausal. Just because you are not smart enough to see the cause does not meant the cause is not there. Fairy tales of it happened all by itself are without evidence. Just because something is very small also is not cause to think it does not have its component causes. Thus, we must accept the fact that there is a cause to the bing bang or the moment preceding it. The common word used to describe the moment before the big big as singularity also has its natural intricacies if it is itself still in nature or material existence and space.
Now if you want to define this singularity as being outside of the natural realm which you are free to suggest, then it is in the supernatural, and therefore we must ask what is the supernatural agent that is the cause of all things? Creator if you will. The Designer would be God of the Bible, the Trinity, given Christ exceeding all others by comparison. Christian quantum physicists agree, thus exposing the overassuming nature of the unsaved scientists (ostriches with their heads in the sand on the way to hell). Or in other words, shutting their minds down by overassuming puff the magic dragon it happened all by itself. This is not quantum mechanics, for nothing in quantum mechanics says the universe happened all by itself. Proper quantum mechanics says it doesn't know what preceded the big bang or singularity. That's proper science. Nor does God create Himself. He always ways. So if it turns out there is nothing preceding the big bang, then the cause is God. If there is a singularity, then the cause of the singularity is God since nothing in the causes and effects of the dust ultimately causes itself.

You have this the wrong way around. If you wish to prove the existence of the biblical god, you must do so. If there is a disproof for any god, then it follows that the biblical god cannot possibly exist. Conversely, proving the possibility of the existence of a generic deity does not prove that the god of the bible exists.

You're missing the point. Having proven God of the Bible in Step 1 & 2, Step 3 introduces a last stand at the O.K Corral where the skeptic will try to argue against some facet of another god that is not the attribute of God of the Bible, so Step 3 is commonly introduced to remind the skeptic so they may go onto Step 4 for their final attempt which deals with the supernatural causes and effects if they exist in gods creating gods.
You can disprove other gods, we are always pleased when you do so, but that does no damage to God of the Bible because God of the Bible is uniquely unlike any of those gods.
The 4 Step Proof of God of the Bible does two things: It proves God exists, and it proves Jesus is the only one who is God because only He said He is God and proved it in His resurrection (this is embedded in the larger portion of the Proof).

Step four is a reiteration of step one, except that the supernatural is invoked. A proof of god cannot use the existence of the supernatural as proof without first proving the existence of the supernatural! Your "proof" may satisfy god botherers but it is laughable to non believers, because it is entirely based in your acceptance of the scriptures and rejection of science. It, and you, are a joke.

The Proof does not demand the supernatural eternity of the past, but if there is a supernatural of an eternity of the past of causes and effects of gods creating gods, immaterial and space-less causes and effects, they would fall for the same reason as was shown in Step #1 because you would not still be sinning now if such an idea were true.
The Proof never went to the Scriptures first, but only through the clear reasoning of the Proof do we find the 66 books of the Bible to be the Word of God Jesus Christ, and that the Trinity held council to create at least 13.7 billion years ago. The reason why such clear reason is laughable to skeptics is because they prefer to cling onto an overassuming view of puff the magic dragon that it happened all by itself, but in science not such idea is ever proposed, so you are going against the very foundations of quantum physics and science itself. I feel it is a joke that you would use such an ad hoc and silly idea to be the reason you want to go to hell.
Just be intellectually honest with yourself that such a silly reason for rejecting God is not you real reason. Your real reason for rejecting God is because you like being in sin, and you don't want to give up the life you have now that you think you would have to change drastically to be saved. Such an assumption is not entirely correct. You can still do many of the things you are doing now after your spirit is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and you are given new life in the new creation. Eternal life does not mean you shut down shop, but you handle things better in the shop by the Holy Spirit and move through God's design to allow God to perfect you and to be with Him in the new city because you have the same eternal life.
Amen.:notworthy:

[Stinge]

G'day,

Before I attempt (or see whether I can be bothered to attempt), a refutation of your "proof" I would like to ask you a clarifying question. Part of the scientific method when positing models or theories is that they must be able to be falsified. There are many examples that can be given for Evolution that if found would falsify the theory. If hominids were to be found in the same strata of the geologic column as ancient single celled organisms, if intermediate or transitional species were never observed (incidentally of which hundreds of examples could be given where they have been witnessed). What in your opinion would falsify your "proof"? What predictions does your "proof" make and can it be tested experimentally? I ask this as it seems that you categorically reject all disproofs, and then ban those who disagree with you. If I know what it would take to falsify your theory I can invest my efforts accordingly. If you believe you're "proof" cannot be proven wrong, ever, then it is not a valid theory and not worthy of consideration.

Please advise,

Regards,

Stinge.

[Churchwork]

Nobody is banned for disagreeing. Not at all. There is not even a single person banned, though some accounts have been removed for belligerency and obstinacy, or other things in violation of the Board Etiquette enough times to warrant it. Read Board Etiquette #9.

On evolution, Christians don't deny it. Rather we say it is a limited perspective since it doesn't explain the big picture because it does not deal with what occurred before the first single celled organism.

There is actually nothing you could do to disprove Step 2 of the Proof for God, because it is impossible to prove something happened all by itself and overcome trillions of examples of things with causes. But with Step 1, if you could show more child sacrifices is an improvement then you would disprove the Proof for God. This is actually a silly discussion, because these things are so obvious. Ergo, God said we all know God exists, for we all have a spirit of God-consciousness. We are without excuse.

[Stinge]

G'day,

Considering you made the FSTDT top 100 quotes for banning someone I would assume you are lying (just like Jesus...damn I couldn't help myself, please don't ban me)

"[One Christian speaking to another]

You are banned. You are not a Christian for Christians don't accuse brothers and sisters in Christ of being non-Christian. "
Troy, Bibliocality [Comments (1041)] 2006-Feb-07

You are Troy aren't you Churchwork? Anyway, this is a trivial point and not what I'm here to discuss.

On evolution, Christians don't deny it. Rather we say it is a limited perspective since it doesn't explain the big picture because it does not deal with what occurred before the first single celled organism.

I'm intrigued, where in the Bible can I learn more about God's wonderful use of Evolution to create man? Surely it must be an excellent read finding out all the details of how we came to be over billions of years. There must have been a printing error in my bible as I can't find the details anywhere? Or did God omit the details because he holds the patent on the process and doesn't want to divulge his trade secrets? Crafty bugger that God making us believe he just created us instantly instead of over billions of years.

You say you believe in evolution, but it doesn't explain the big picture as we as yet do not understand how abiogenesis occurred. It still explains an ENORMOUS amount more than "God did it". And what happens if man in the coming years does figure out how life began from natural processes and is able to recreate it? What place then for the God of the Bible and its dubious creation story?

As Richard Dawkins shows in the God Delusion, Evolution is a consciousness raiser, it opens our eyes to the idea that if such complex beings as ourselves can be the product of natural processes and sufficient time, why can't the Universe have evolved from simpler to more complex structures without the need of a god. Admittedly, this doesn't explain the "big picture" of why there is something rather than nothing, but just because we don't currently know how abiogenesis occurred or exactly how the universe came into existence, we shouldn't make stuff up like "God did it" to fill the gaps in our understanding like they did in the stupid ages, instead we should say we currently DON'T KNOW and continue to search for answers.

There is actually nothing you could do to disprove Step 2 of the Proof for God, because it is impossible to prove something happened all by itself and overcome trillions of examples of things with causes.

Step 2 (Kalaam or First Cause argument) appears to be fundamental to your "proof" yet you state there is nothing we could do to disprove it. If a portion of your proof cannot be falsified, that part of theory is not valid. Does your "proof" still hold without step 2? The answer is NO (well to be fair your proof was one of the worst I've seen and regardless of step 2 is chock full of errors and inconsistencies that have been pointed out by others, that your "proof" only succeeded in showing how entrenched you are in your god mindset...where's the intellectual honesty you tout so often?).

Yes, there are trillions of examples of things with causes, but you are looking at the macroscopic world which operates very differently from various things in the quantum world which appear to be indeterministic. If everything has a cause, as you claim, what causes virtual particles to pop into and out of existence? Don't know? How then can you claim ALL effects have a previous cause when we currently don't know how many things in the quantum world are caused?

Incidentally do you believe in free will? If so, that opens a big can of problems with cause and effect. You're step 2 would imply Hard determinism which is incompatible with free will. I had no choice but to reject the notion of god due to a long standing chain of cause and effect :)

But with Step 1, if you could show more child sacrifices is an improvement then you would disprove the Proof for God.

So all I have to do is show that more child sacrifices could be an improvement to take out the $10000. I like it, here we go:

As an interesting aside, it's funny you should use child sacrifices as your example considering these children who have been subjected to this have been sacrificed to appease various gods over the millennia. Ah the evils of religion, but I digress.

I intend show how a dramatic increase in the number of child sacrifices could result in an improvement in the human gene pool and the health of future generations.

If every child (or adults too) who were found to have any genetic or hereditary disease or disorder were sacrificed / killed before they had the opportunity to reproduce, the benefits to the human gene pool and health of future generations would be dramatic. Medical science is currently able to keep millions of people alive who would otherwise die, allowing them the opportunity to reproduce and as is the case with hereditary diseases, pass on their afflictions to the next generation. For those with currently non-curable infectious diseases, if they were to be sacrificed, the chance of them passing on the disease to others diminishes significantly. This could also be extended to a Hitleresque / Gattaca type situation where by culling the weakest genetic links (eg extremely low IQ, ugly), a vast improvement in the gene pool and health of future generation would be achieved. The more people who are sacrificed who carry inferior genetic material, the greater the improvement for future generations. Also the more we sacrifice the less strain the human race will put on the planet, with less people to feed, house and clothe. We could go one step further and try resolve diseases or conditions that occur later in life after individuals have already reproduced by sacrificing the offspring of any individual who has these afflictions (if they are hereditary like heart disease, diabetes, etc). So do your part for the Human race, sacrifice a child today! I realise I sound like Hitler at the moment but the point of the matter is, if this was to be done, the benefits and improvement to the human gene pool would be immense.

Incidentally, this is already happening on the small scale with IVF and pre-checking of embryos for hereditary diseases. Those found with problems are discarded and only "healthy" embryos implanted. Do you count abortion as child sacrifice? If so your figures for step 1 just got mighty skewed as the numbers of women having abortions has greatly increased in recent history.

The above shows how increasing child sacrifices could be a huge improvement for the human race. You ready to hand over the $10000 now? I can set you up a nice payment plan if you're a little short of cash.

Regarding your Step 1, what evidence do you have that humans can ever or are likely to attain a state of perfection from sin (or as close as is humanly possible) without referencing the Bible? What makes you think that the improvement seen in the amount of "sinning" has anything to do with god and isn't to do with the changing moral zeitgeist and actions of humans trying to better their lot. You see less murders per capita and think "god's plan is unfolding nicely, not long until we'll be sinless beings", I look at the same figures and think of the myriad of reasons crime has been reduced with a purely human cause as society develops and changes and our culture evolves with the times.

This is actually a silly discussion, because these things are so obvious. Ergo, God said we all know God exists, for we all have a spirit of God-consciousness. We are without excuse.

And you end with some Christian dribble...nice. I must have been out having a smoke when god handed out the spirit of God-consciousness or God must have been mistaken (oops not omniscient) when he said we all know God exists, 'cause I for one do not know God exists and have been shown no proof whatsoever from my touring of this site. I'll save you the trouble, I'm going to Hell, praise be to Satan (bugger that's right I don't believe in those things either).

Interested to see your response.

Cheers,

Stinge.

[Churchwork]

The body was formed from dust. Consider the billions of years to form the body.

Since the uncreated is proven, you know God did it in your spirit of God-consciousness.

Free will is compatible with determinism. God gave you free-will. He caused it. You were created with the choice which God can foresee.

All things in quantum mechanics have a cause. They can't just happen out of nowhere all by themselves. That's silly. Nothing in nature exhibits puff the magic dragon out of nowhere.

Your conscience is seared in your claim that murdering people is an improvement. What a sick and demented world that would be if it was considered a good thing.

You know God exists, for you know the uncreated must exist because nothing in nature can pop into existence all by itself and the exponential progression of conscience shows us we would not still be sinning by now.

Therefore, if you don't want the forgiveness of God by accepting what His Son did on the cross, then what have you but an eternal separation from God when you are resurrected to hell.

[Stinge]

G'day,

What a load of Christian drivel. Again you have aptly displayed how you are completely entrenched in your God mindset that you have created some God filter in your brain to reject all facts and logic that contradict your claims.

The body was formed from dust. Consider the billions of years to form the body.

Doesn't the bible say God created everything in 6 days, then got sleepy and napped on the 7th day? Where in the bible can i read about the billions of years to form the body or are you just cherry picking the bits of science you like and ignoring the rest and re-interpreting the 7 days of creation to be non-literal?

You also didn't provide me with the parts of the bible that detail evolution? It appears "God did it" works until we prove he didn't do certain things in the way the bible says and then Christians have to go and re-interpret the bible. And now that we have proof we came about by evolution, Christians claim that must have been how "God did it", what a crock of shit. Just keep on moving those goal posts.

Since the uncreated is proven, you know God did it in your spirit of God-consciousness.

The uncreated is only proven in your mind. Even if I conceded that there must be a first cause, something that is uncreated, what on Earth makes you think that it is a God that fills this position, let alone the God you choose to follow. What proof do you have? How has every other religion got it so wrong, yet you somehow chose the right God to worship? Had you been born in the Middle East you would be praising Allah and Mohammed. Did you just get lucky with where you were born, so you could learn the truth and be able to be saved? Do you not see the idiocy of claiming so many of us are unsaved because we don't believe the same tripe that you do? If some extrordinarily complex being like your God with all his Omni powers can be the uncaused cause, why can't you concede that the uncaused cause could have been pure energy for instance and all things followed from there. Seems to me that if there is an uncaused cause, the chances that it's the most complex and supreme being possible is absolutely laughable. You concede evolution is true, and we can see how complexity evolved from simpler forms. Yet you still believe the most complex being possible is what came first.

You need to stop stating that things are proven when you are making arguments based on faith and not facts. What a quality scientific argument you posit with "you know God did it in your spirit of God-consciousness." I personally am either without a spirit of God-consciousness or don't know how to access it. So since I am unable to just know these truths that those of you who have this magical ability are obviously able to just take on faith, I need you to provide me with some actual evidence.

Free will is compatible with determinism. God gave you free-will. He caused it. You were created with the choice which God can foresee.

Life must hold very little mystery for you since anything you don't know or understand you put in the "God did it" pile. How do you know such things? Did you just feel it in your God-consciousness or did you read it in the Bible and accept it as truth? At what point in our evolution did God intervene to hand out free will? How are we "free" to make choices when every choice we make is the product of a long chain of cause and effect as per your step 2? Our thoughts are a product of our brains. We can't just make a choice without any prior cause and effect or our choices could be said to uncaused which would fuck up your whole argument? Did God just give us the illusion of free will?

All things in quantum mechanics have a cause. They can't just happen out of nowhere all by themselves. That's silly. Nothing in nature exhibits puff the magic dragon out of nowhere.

Does this include your God? Or is he the exemption to the rule? Sounds like Ad Hoc reasoning to me. You will prejudicially apply the exception only to your God which is a logical fallacy.

Your conscience is seared in your claim that murdering people is an improvement. What a sick and demented world that would be if it was considered a good thing.

Oh my conscience doth burn, the pain! Good in this sense is subjective. If were talking about the actual murdering, sure, not such a good thing. The results the murdering would bring on the other hand would be very good for the health and well being of future generations and the planet. You're the one who set me the challenge of showing increasing child sacrifices could be a good thing and I think I showed how it could be very beneficial despite being very distasteful. Personally I'll wait for Scientists to find cures and genetically engineer people to be healther and disease free to achieve the same results, once you fundie's let them do stem cell research of course.

As per my previous post, included below, I was curious whether your step 1 figures have taken into account the number of abortions or "murders" as you Christians like to call them?

"Incidentally, this is already happening on the small scale with IVF and pre-checking of embryos for hereditary diseases. Those found with problems are discarded and only "healthy" embryos implanted. Do you count abortion as child sacrifice? If so your figures for step 1 just got mighty skewed as the numbers of women having abortions has greatly increased in recent history."

This kind of screening is only going to become more prollific as even couples who could reproduce normally are opting for IVF to screen the embryos and discard those with defects. Is destroying an embryo killing a human?

Your conscience is seared in your claim that murdering people is an improvement. What a sick and demented world that would be if it was considered a good thing.

Welcome to the Dark Ages of the history of your Religion where sick and demented was considered a good thing. Yeah, I've never seen any religious groups go about killing people thinking it would be an improvement. Oh hang on, what about the crusades, the inquisition. Now that I think about it, religion pretty much has held a monopoly on killing people with different beliefs for millennia in an effort to improve matters by killing the heathens and heretics. The Bible has more instances of murder, killing and mass genocide than any book I could possibly think of, and most of the killing is instigated by God. "Pot Calling Kettle Award" nomination on behalf of your religion.

...the exponential progression of conscience shows us we would not still be sinning by now.

Again from my previous post, please answer the following:

"Regarding your Step 1, what evidence do you have that humans can ever or are likely to attain a state of perfection from sin (or as close as is humanly possible) without referencing the Bible? What makes you think that the improvement seen in the amount of "sinning" has anything to do with god and isn't to do with the changing moral zeitgeist and actions of humans trying to better their lot. You see less murders per capita and think "God's plan is unfolding nicely, not long until we'll be sinless beings", I look at the same figures and think of the myriad of reasons crime has been reduced with a purely human cause as society develops and changes and our culture evolves with the times."

Therefore, if you don't want the forgiveness of God by accepting what His Son did on the cross, then what have you but an eternal separation from God when you are resurrected to hell.

I do not want nor need forgiveness from any mythical beings. Why did Jesus have to die on the cross for our sins? If God is Omnipotent, surely he could have just forgiven our sins without torturing his son? What a shit parent, welfare should take his son away from him. Glad he's not my dad. If it turned out God of the Bible exists I would want nothing to do with him. At least if I did go to hell I'd be surrounded by tonnes of my friends. By the way, telling people they are going to hell only scares religious people who are too chicken shit to think for themselves.

Have a nice day,

Cheers,

Stinge

[Churchwork]

Since Jesus is proven to have walked the earth, he would not be mythical. Since 95+% of scholars believe in the historical Jesus, then your issue is with scholars. If you can't agree with what the majority of scholars are agreed upon, then you are on your own illogical path.

The 6 days of creation are summary days of restoration; that is, they sum up the long period of restoration after God made desolate and waste in Gen. 1.2. This is called Gap Restoration.

Muslims know better not to believe in Islam, obviously, because 600+ years later they say Jesus never died on the cross without any evidence to support their alteration. There is no excuse for such mindless self-declarations. It doesn't matter where you live. Holding such mistaken assumptions and creating a religion around that false idea is untenable.

[Stinge]

G'day,

Short post this time since you don't bother to actually answer the majority of my questions and those you do, the response is "God, blah blah, Jesus, blah, blah" of which I am growing very bored.

Since Jesus is proven to have walked the earth, he would not be mythical.

A HUMAN by the name of Jesus is believed to have existed. What proof have you he was the son of God? What proof have you got that he did any of the miracalous things the bible says he did (considering most of the Bible was written hundreds of years after Jesus was about)?

Since 95+% of scholars believe in the historical Jesus, then your issue is with scholars. If you can't agree with what the majority of scholars are agreed upon, then you are on your own illogical path.

I need you to really look at this quote. Study it long and hard. Here it is again:

If you can't agree with what the majority of scholars are agreed upon, then you are on your own illogical path.

And once more so it really sinks in:

If you can't agree with what the majority of scholars are agreed upon, then you are on your own illogical path.

Oh that's right you only would accept what scholars say when it agrees with you're world view. Go back and look at every point where people have challenged you're retarded proof for errors and logical consistencies and then go see whether the majority of scholars would agree with you or them. I think you will be unpleasantly surprised.

The 6 days of creation are summary days of restoration; that is, they sum up the long period of restoration after God made desolate and waste in Gen. 1.2. This is called Gap Restoration.

Just keep on re-interpreting the bible and moving the goal posts, as I know you will.

Muslims know better not to believe in Islam, obviously, because 600+ years later they say Jesus never died on the cross without any evidence to support their alteration. There is no excuse for such mindless self-declarations. It doesn't matter where you live. Holding such mistaken assumptions and creating a religion around that false idea is untenable.

You really are a dumb simple fucktard aren't you? (Rhetorical question) This has got to be the stupidest thing I've seen in a long, long time. Please stop using your brain ASAP as it is severely malfunctioning and doing further damage to itself.

Your challenge is pointless as you will never pay out and it feels like I'm debating a really stupid and irrational drunken chimpanzee(although that is unkind to stupid and irrational drunken chimp's). How about you let the challenge be adjudicated by a large panel of learned scholars where majority rules rather than let a drunken chimp decide.

Cheers,

Stinge.