Originally Posted by
Juliet
Churchwork,
Step 2: "The universe has a cause."
At the very least, I think the claim that the universe has a cause might be the strongest argument for theism, however that argument would have had a lot more persuasive force 500 years ago than it does today, simply because of the leaps and bounds in scientific progress we've made. The claim "everything has a cause" isnt as obviously true as it used to be. I provided two reasons, a theological reason (namely that free will is not bound by the rules of determinism), and a scientific reason (namely the fact that scientific determinism breaks down at the quantum level).
Step 1 shows the universe was created by the uncreated. Step 2 also shows the universe was created by the uncreated. They both show the same thing but in two different ways. One looks at sin and conscience, while the other looks at the fact that all things in nature have a cause, so the ultimate cause must be the uncreated being.
I don't think Step 2 is any more stronger today than it ever was even though there has been leaps and bounds in scientific progress. Jesus said we would do amazing things far greater than he did, and scientific progress is certainly included. One could make an argument for the acceptance that people were more prone to accept God because of the simple fact that they were simple and could easily see one thing always led to another. But today, man has fancy theories that puff up self, so much so he even believes in puff the magic dragon theories that things just happen all by themselves. Such pride can render such absurd conclusions.
Everything having a cause is certainly just as much true in yesteryear as it is today. Free-will is bound by rules of determinism which is to say that free-will ultimately has its cause too (both in origin and process as the person may be influenced by God, self or Satan) and that cause is God made us in His image with a free-will to have free-choice. This determinism does nothing to diminish free-will of yesteryear when it was written down by Moses in Gen. 1.26,27 we were made in God's image. And Abel was recorded as giving a free-will offering, and John 3.16 is given to advise us we have a choice.
Determinism means everything has a cause and effect and can be determined by God in His infinite foreknowledge because He is all-knowing. It is all accomplished according to His holiness and righteousness.
And determinism (laws of cause and effect) do not break down at the quantum level, just because you can't know all causes and effects. That is like saying, because you are not God to be able to see all things, therefore it must happen all by itself like puff the magic dragon. That is illogical. Men did not know the sun was the center of the solar system, but finally realized it by observing various causes. An atheist is someone who is still thinking the earth is flat because he can't see the cause of the motions of the solar system around the sun yet. Silly. One word depicts this overassuming attitude: pride! And pride because the evidence speaks so much to the contrary.
Thus, nothing was said of sufficient value by Juliet the atheist to have any basis for atheism.
This is a strawman argument you are using, for to think the process of choosing is separate from the free-will choice given by God is merely your attempt at trying to be cunning and couth. This is a logical fallacy by your misrepresenting my position. My position covers any process of free-choice ultimately given by God. Hallelujah!
Since you don't define this change of subject but just self-declare it, then this is more of your acting like the devil in false accusations. You did mention free-will by saying it "is not bound by determinism," yet determinism is the law of cause and effect for all things, so let go of your doubletongue when you said you said nothing of the origin of free-will, because you have just mentioned that free-will is not bound by a cause of determinism. Your statement is false since free-will does have its cause. By the Holy Spirit it is so easy when someone speaks out the side of their face as have you done. Therefore, your underlined accusation is a false one as usual. The cause is the very fact that it is made in God's image! Just like in quantum mechanics we often can only speak of probabilities, so it is with man's free-will, still ultimately caused. Just because something has a probability does not mean it is without a cause of being afforded the free-choice and to employ its own processes and receive from God or not. How silly. The very right to a probability has embedded within it principles for probability. Just like a 20 sided die can come up any number from 1 to 20, it is because the die is a certain shape to allow for this to happen (it is a righteous die). So has God designed quantum mechanics. He can also foresee the outcome, not only the probability of it. He can take into account all probabilities to know the outcomes according to His righteousness and holiness. This makes God far beyond any expectation you may have of His greatness. Under all probabilities is a root cause, such as the die falls a certain way. But who throws the die? God does. How does He throw it? He throws it perfectly to allow us fall the way we may. Of course I responded to your argument. As I already wrote:
Because all things have a prior cause including free-will, this poses no problem for the fact that God created. The free-will cause is that God made us in His image and since God is uncreated, this is acceptable. The finding is that the uncreated is the only thing that does not need to be caused since all things in creation are caused.
So as we see here your argument failed you.
Therefore, determinism stands in God's infinite foreknowledge. Though we have free-will and there is a cause and effect in all things, God has infinite foreknowledge (Rom. 8.29) to foresee our free-choice.
The origin of free-will is a cause. It does not happen all by itself. You are talking in a doubletongue, for you had written already, irrationally,
This has probably never occurred to you, but if Step 2 is true, then your religion is false, even if God exists or not, because the statement "
nothing in nature happens all by itself, there is always a cause and an effect" is a fundamental denial of free will, on the basis that the cause of all of their actions
must come from a prior effect, which in turn must come from a prior cause, ad infinitum until the first cause which you believe to be God. If God is the ultimate cause of everything, he is the ultimate cause of all the evil in the universe, and people never actually made a free choice to believe or disbelieve in God, because all events were set in motion and determined from the very beginning. (Some people have no problem with predestination, but I think that view of God is extremely offensive to religion, because a god who predestines people to go to hell is a monster and not worthy of worship.)
That there is always a cause and effect does not violate free-will, but substantiates it for free-will does not come from nothing, but is caused, and the only possible cause for a free-will is God. No other explanation is provided or accounted for. My response was:
God did not create evil, but those beings that existed chose to be evil. God did not force them to be that way, they chose it. Similarly, in God foreseeing all events does not infringe on our free-will. We still choose. To set in motion events is not to pre-program robots, but to allow the free-will to choose freely to receive God or not. God predestinates by foreknowing (Rom. 8.29) our free-choice (John 3.16, see Abel's free-will offering).
There are two kinds of predestination. One is false, one is true. The one that is false is the kind you describe which is under calvinism. Calvinism is not Christianity. God's way of salvation is to predestinate us by foreknowing our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints. This is called OSAS Arminian.
Don't blame God for your false predestination since it is your false view of reality, not a part of God's plan. Accept true Biblical predestination, which is God's way of salvation.
As I was never talking about the
origin of free will or where it comes from, but rather the
process of actually making free choices, your rebuttal amounts to nothing.
Since the origin of free-will and the making of free-choices all have their origins, ie causes, no free-choice is undetermined. The first giving of a free-choice is a cause and the act of choosing also has its cause which is inherent of the right to free-choice being made in God's image. You certainly could never separate the two, after all, God does not allow any such separation. By denying being made in God's image would never cut it since we have a free-will which exists because the uncreated caused it and allows its processes to unfold according to His righteousness allowances.
So, I must reiterate, you stated, "
nothing in nature happens all by itself, there is always a cause and an effect", and if you believe that people make genuinely free choices (which are not explicable by the rules of determinism), then free will choices are obviously the exception to the rule that all events have a cause and effect, so your statement is false. In fact, you conceded this fact yourself, in your very own words, you said, "
Similarly, in God foreseeing all events does not infringe on our free-will. We still choose.", so are free will choices actually determined or not? If not, then Step 2 is false, just as I said it was in the beginning.
Determinism says all things have a cause and effect. Free-choice exist within that framework and abides in this principle. However difficult it is for you fathom all things having a cause and effect and our having a free-choice makes no difference. These are both realities and laws of life. Having a free-choice is no exception to the rule of determinism, for they are both completely compatible. We are made in God's image. So the statement remains true still all things have a cause and effect and man's free-will is no exception. All man's choice is built up in being made in God's image. I concede nothing when I said, "Similarly, in God foreseeing all events does not infringe on our free-will. We still choose." Our determined free will has a cause, and that cause is in God making us in His image to have the choice. It is determined because it is caused by God making us in His image. Since it is determined, then Step 2 remains true, as I said from the beginning. Amen.
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