The Necessity of Death

**Stan** · 10-16-2014, 09:26 PM

We are crucified IN Christ and participate in His death and Resurrection by baptism in water. The baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire gives us what we need to walk the walk. We are never free from sin until we are dead and or made incorruptible. We must strive for excellence and with EVERY temptation, look for a way out that we may be able to bear it. If we do sin, we have an advocate with the father who will intercede on our behalf, and will forgive our sins IF we confess them to Him.

**spiritualman** · 10-16-2014, 09:47 PM

We who are saved are once saved always saved. If there is a possibility you could lose what you believe to be salvation it is not the salvation of the Bible. One indication this is true for you is by thinking baptism will save you. It cannot save you. God saves by regeneration. Whereas baptism of the Holy Spirit is something one experiences when ready after they are saved, for having died with Christ now one becomes buried, dies to the world and has that sense of a sojourner, and comes out of the water with Christ. Having this experience one may go and get baptized by water if they wish to let others know in the body of Christ they are members of the same body. But that baptism of the Holy Spirit itself is real and substantial entering into a deeper experience and consecration with the Lord. After that one can experience even further blessing of the dividing of their spirit, soul and body (Heb. 4.12) towards becoming an overcomer.

**servant77** · 04-21-2016, 01:53 PM

It doesn't appear to matter in practically all the churches I've visited and been a member of the last 40 years. If once saved always saved is true, or not, since most people are not saved, it's not important to them, is it ? ((I mean it won't make any difference, if they never get saved anyway))

**spiritualman** · 04-22-2016, 02:55 PM

servant77,

But you are not saved, because you admit you are not once saved always saved. You claim you could lose salvation. Therefore, you have given your life to a false Christ and are going to Hell. You were too selfish to receive the Jesus who always keeps. It's like you have one foot in the door and one foot out at all times. You have not genuinely, therefore, come to Christ. God doesn't save you because you don't come in with both feet to accept the Jesus who always keeps. You are still relying on self and your own power.

Choir Loft · 06-25-2016, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Stan

We are crucified IN Christ and participate in His death and Resurrection by baptism in water. The baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire gives us what we need to walk the walk. We are never free from sin until we are dead and or made incorruptible. We must strive for excellence and with EVERY temptation, look for a way out that we may be able to bear it. If we do sin, we have an advocate with the father who will intercede on our behalf, and will forgive our sins IF we confess them to Him.

Your statement is confusing. Perhaps if you reiterated .....

If we are never free from (the power of) sin, as you say, "until we are dead", then it is impossible to "walk the walk" (whatever that means) for according to your statement the power of sin will reign over the living man. How can a dead man walk? There is no hiking of the dead in the cemetary (except in Hollywood movies).

In point of fact, the reason we need salvation from the power of sin is so that we CAN LIVE and live a life that is pleasing to God.

"For to me life is Christ and death is gain."- Paul to Phillipians 1:21

We ARE free from the power of sin at the moment the second birth begins - at the moment the Holy Spirit joins within.

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship." - Paul to the Romans in 12:1

If a man is a sinner all the days he lives, then he cannot be a "living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God". Jesus said that no man is autonomous. A man cannot serve two masters. If a man loves the world he will hate God and if he loves God he will hate the world. When the power of sin resides in a man he loves the world and cannot love God. Therefore being saved and with the guidance and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the man CAN live a life pleasing to God because in the power of God he can love God.(*)

The idea that a man needs to die to be truly saved ignors the teaching of the Mosaic Law. In the law it is written that sin can be cast away like a dirty worn out old coat. Gulit is removed so that the people of God can live with God without fear of judgement either here or hereafter.

Jesus did not come to abolish the Law (to this day no one has a license to sin). He came to fulfill the Law (so that we can life without the power of sin over us or the threat of judgment upons us).
That means that the power of sin is removed and that the saved man can live 'in the spirit' a life pleasing to God.

You don't need to die to be free of sin. LIVE and praise God for it. That is what He wants and THAT is what He died for.

Read the book of Galatians. The letter of Paul may clear up a few things for you.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) Note that 'in the power of the Holy Spirit' man is still NOT autonomous. The autonomy enjoyed by Adam & Eve before the fall is eternally lost - forever gone.
Fellowship has been restored and sin forgiven via the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross, but autonomy has been forever lost to all. We are called to live 'in the spirit' saved by Him and guided by Him and all this not of ourselves lest any man should boast. No man is an island and no man lives for himself in the Kingdom of God.

**spiritualman** · 06-25-2016, 04:46 PM

Choir,

I think you are misunderstanding what Stan said. Stan was not saying Christians don't have the power over sin, but that as long as we are in these bodies of flesh and blood we are susceptible to the flesh even though those born-again have died to their old man. I would disagree with Stan in what he said about baptism. Baptism comes after the new birth. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is experientially sensing one has died to the world, gone down to the water with Christ, and coming up out of the world as a sojourner.