Quote Originally Posted by Relativist
Well I know that it would be harmful to me if I tried to make myself believe that Jesus (who likely existed and was likely a good man who's likely dedication to helping others was admirable) was resurrected with no actual, tangible evidence. All we've got is dead people having said that they saw something. This group vision probably happened because these people had been selling Jesus as the Son of God and when he died it didn't very well support the notion of his Godliness so they had to think quick and come up with a story that would still support Jesus=God. Their story was then passed from Christian to Christian and I can't help but wonder if this was partially to encourage continued devotion to a specific religion which serves the church and the men who might be invested in maintaining their power over others and continued influx of money, status and control over abortion, views on homosexuality, gender equality, marriage and therefore new little Christians.

It does not sit well with me or serve me in any way to believe things just because ancient word of mouth said so. I follow my intuition and rely on my own observations and experiences over time to form beliefs. If your interested, I believe that God is a universal energy that flows through me and everything on this planet because this has been my experience and how I've interpreted those experiences. I love that the word God, as far as any linguists and researchers can determine, originally came from the Sanskrit word hu which means to call upon or invoke. God is not a Christian word nor do Christians "know" God more than a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Yogi or a Hindu does.

I am not a Christian, nor will I ever be one. Organized religion in any form does not work for me. I choose to believe that I am supposed to follow my own path and ideally form a very personal, spiritual bond with God so that I am not alone when I suffer in life, so that I will devote myself to helping others suffer less, so that I'm inspired to live a healthy, happy, grateful life and so that my life has meaning through this interconnection between myself and everything else. If this brings into question my sanity, intelligence or makes others think I'm on crack so be it but really it has nothing to do with anyone else.

My belief is just as valid to me as yours is to you. Most importantly to me, my beliefs have never caused harm to anyone, but the same can not be said of most religions. Even though I have expressed my frustration with Christianity I would never pro-actively try to get you to change your view point so that I can "save you" from eternal damnation or declare that if you do not accept my beliefs that you will be forever separated from God so why on God's green earth (but not for long if we don't get our heads out of our arses, stop over consuming and help the planet) would you assume that you know what is best for me. Last time I checked I have never sought salvation at the alter of Troy.

By the way, when you pointed out my mistake of misspelling the word Aryan when you knew what I meant because of the context of my sentence you came across to me as pretentious and belittling. Not sure if that was your intent but wanted to give you this feedback. My different outlook from yours in no way makes me like or care for you any less. I love that you are so passionate about your beliefs but wish that you could be more accepting of my right to choose and respectful that my beliefs are just as valid as yours.
Nobody wants you to force yourself to believe anything, but simply let the evidence lead you where it may. My response may run a little long because I conscientiously wanted to address each and every one of your points that if you are unwilling to look at now may you do so in time.

Jesus likely existed? We need to be honest with the evidence firstly. Did you know that there are more sources written about Jesus within 150 years of his death than any 10 figures combined from antiquity! Therefore, if Jesus did not exist then Aristotle, Plato, Julius Caesar and Tiberius Caesar never existed, and nobody thinks that even with only a couple sources for each of them and dated centuries after their lives.

Why start off with the mistaken assumption Jesus was "likely a good man" and was just performing good works and that there is no tangible evidence? Let us start, rather, without assumptions and let the evidence lead us where it may. For example, we have 45 ancient sources within 150 years of Jesus' death, 17 of which are non-Christian (see The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus, and The Historical Jesus by Gary R. Habermas). Of those 17 non-Christian sources, 12 refer to his death, 7 to his "alleged" resurrection and 7 to his "alleged" deity. You really can't ask for better evidence than this to prove the life, death, burial, resurrection and deity of Jesus. The approach used in that audio is called the Minimal Facts Approach which states most scholars (for good reasons) concede Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 in which he testifies to spending time with the eyewitness Apostles who gave him the gospel of salvation, and Paul would have converted 2 years after the cross. So it goes right back to the cross.

Your argument is "all we have are dead people having said they saw something." No! That's not all we got. Yes, they are dead, but they multiply attested to seeing, being with, touching and talking with Jesus after he died on the cross. And they went to their deaths as martyrs never changing their view. Therefore, the burden is on you to find a naturalistic explanation to account for their eyewitness testimony. You have provided none so nobody should side with you. If you can't find figure out an explanation then realize the reason is because no such naturalistic explanation exists which proves Jesus created you and died on the cross for the sins of the world and that he was not just a good man, but God incarnate. This is why the Pharisees wanted to kill him for forgiving sins because the ultimate forgiver of sins is God. Jesus was making himself out to be God. He knew no sin.

You claimed they had a vision and then made it up? How do they have a vision together and then make it up if they had a vision? Do you see the contradiction on your part? Moreover, group visions are group hallucinations, but no such thing has ever happened in human history nor found in the DM-4 psychology manual. The burden remains on you to find a naturalistic explanation to account for their eyewitness testimony in various group settings otherwise you are holding onto something untenable and is hurtful to you and others especially those closest to you receiving misinformation, blocking them from making an educated decision.

As the Church was born and grew in the first century they had no power in the worldly sense. They were martyred. Whatever corruptions that may come by men operating in their flesh like the rest of the world does not cast a shadow on the good conscience of those who are born-again. It only shows how hard Satan is at work in the world as well as the kingdom of heaven to deceive.

As the OT teaches so the NT teaches. Any issues you have with homosexuality are issues you have with the word of God. God created you in His image and in the garden of Eden one man with one woman. No other arrangement was provided for. You called us 'new little Christians.' How right you are. Luke 12.32 says we are a "little flock". Before the foundations of the world God has chosen a people for Himself far fewer than you might think. I am grateful to God I am one of them! And my salvation can never be lost. Those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Other religions allow for losing salvation.

Don't believe ancient truths that are still true today just because they said so, but because of the evidence for which you are unable to overturn. We all have an intuition to be utilized, but sadly the intuition of our spirit has been corrupted and the evil spirit resides in those inner recesses until a person is born-again. This leads to many false ideas in your life, as your intuition, as it were, is not holy and cleansed by the precious blood. God, in turn, provides us with sufficient grace to have the free choice to search Him out with all our heart and soul, and when we have done so He promises we will find Him. Therefore, the reason you are not born again is because you have not searched Him out with all your heart and soul. You remain standoffish, independent and disobedient like the fallen angels and all before you have refused His love, mercy and saving grace.

You speak highly of your own observations, but your own observations suggest group hallucinations are impossible, so why do you create a scenario of "group visions" but your observation deems them impossible? The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8) or doubleminded. In other words, don't have a standard for others you do not have for yourself. This unethical approach of yours hurts others and yourself because it brings down your moral standards and those around you.

God cannot be less than His creation, so God cannot be merely some electrical current. Because you have a mind, God must have a mind. Because you are a moral being, God has the highest morals. A mind is needed to create a mind. God is omnipresent, but His Holy Spirit does not dwell in your inner woman because your spirit is dead to God. In other words, due to the fall of the first Adamic man, you are born into sin. Notice nobody has never not sinned. Your dead spirit refers to loss of communication. This is the Biblically meaning of dead. To restore this communication with God no amount of works on your part could satisfy God since He is infinitely greater than you and you are full of self and sin. Sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell. So what God does is He enters His creation to bridge the gap, provides forgiveness for every wrong thing you ever did, gives you power over the flesh placing your old woman on the cross and regenerates your spirit to give you eternal life, and the Holy Spirit then enters through the window of your conscience to reside in your intuition.

I think you also tried to imply legends theory, but this breaks down because the NT was written before the Neronian persecutions in 65 AD (other than who John wrote Revelation 95 AD) by those original Apostles who spent 3 years with Jesus, and you can quote the entire NT from the writings of the church fathers in the 2nd century except for 11 verses. Furthermore, Paul said he spent 15 days with Peter, John and James, and the gospel he received was from those original eyewitness Apostles. 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 go right back to the cross. The earliest still surviving papyri we have of the NT are from the late first and early second century and are closest to their events than any other documents in antiquity by far. Do you see how the standards of the Bible are the highest? We have 40 authors who wrote the 66 books of the Bible across 1500 years in total agreement. Praise the Lord! It's a miracle how God not only brought it all together but kept it all together for us to understand His redemptive design down through the generations. In terms of legal evidence, the lawyer in the Guinness Book of Records who won 245 cases in a row said the best case he has ever seen was for the life, death, burial, resurrection and deity of Christ. The lawyer who was said to produce more jurisprudence than all the lawyers in Europe at his time gave the rule evidence applied to ancient texts:

And so he became a believer that Jesus was God and was converted. He wrote, "In requiring this candor and simplicity of mind, and those who would investigate the truth of our religion..." He sees that Christianity is, in fact, the only evidential historical religion in the world, and the whole things rests upon evidence which he finds so compelling and so overwhelming that any honest person with an open mind examining the evidence would be like himself inescapably drawn to accept it. And so he sets forth his first rule of legal evidence and for any other ancient document.

"Every document apparently ancient coming from the proper repository or custody and bearing on its face no evident marks of forgery, the law presumes to be genuine and devolves on the opposing party the burden of proving it to be otherwise."

"This ancient document, the Scripture, has come from the proper repository, that is, it is has been in the hands of the persons of the Church for 2000 years almost and it bears on its face no evident marks of forgery, and therefore the law presumes it to be genuine, and those who would presume otherwise upon them devolves the responsibility of proving it to be false. We don't have to prove it to be true. They have to prove it to be false. That's what the law says."

(Simon Greenleaf, The Testimony of the Evangelists: The Gospels Examined for the Rules of Evidence)

God is uncreated. He existed before time and space. He has a mind. He is personal and all-knowing. You know Muslims are wrong, because their entire faith is based on a guy in a cave six centuries later who claimed Jesus did not die or even go to the cross, but Mohammad had no evidence for this claim, contrary to the multitude of evidence we have that Jesus did die on the cross in those sources I mentioned. Muhammad was just expressing his hostility to God as you express yours but in a different way with a different agenda. Hinduism claims you can come back as a chicken if you were too sinful, then when you become a good chicken you get to be human again. That's silly. It never effectively deals with sin in this one life. Hinduism also teaches that its God is amoral, but again, how can God have standards below our own? That which created us is greater than the created. Buddhists believe in Nirvana to shut their minds down which was a way for them to try to cope with all kinds of suffering, but the Christian God is totally opposed to such action, because God gave us a mind to be used, intuition to be heeded, emotions to be harnessed, physical senses and a free will to be employed. Moreover, all these other religions and faiths you mentioned have something in common which is salvation by works and self-strength. Whereas Christianity teaches that no man can bridge that gap by his works or self-strength. It is God Himself who must enter His creation to atone for sins and provide reconciliation whosoever is willing. God does this not only for us, of course, but Himself, because He can't fellowship with sin. He needs a redeemed man to bring into His light and countenance. This is how we know God is Christian, the one true religion, and Jesus is God both from a moralistic and evidential perspective. "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1.1). Based on this reasoning, only one religion is true. Among the 3 or 4 religions that are accessible with at least a billion adherents each as God is accessible only one is true!

Let me point out a contradiction you have because you teach pantheism. Muslims do not believe in Pantheism, yet you claimed Islam was no less true. I am all too aware of each time you contradict yourself and pray that you can see that too. A faith that contradicts itself or is contradictory with other faiths clearly shows the error of a faith.

The Bible teaches that you may yet be a Christian one day if you were willing to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. You have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Know that God gives your lifetime to decide. The Bible defines religion: "Pure religion and undefiled before God...and to keep oneself unspotted from the world" (James 1.27). Religion is the way to God so when you oppose religion, you're opposing the way to God and to be saved from your sins. You love your flesh too much. What I can say about your condition is great loss will have to occur in your life before you would consider reality and question your beliefs. This is how many people come to Christ when it seemed impossible in their far gone condition.

As far as fellowship of the body of Christ, the reason why Christians get together, pray together and worship together is because we are God's children, we love God and have been chosen before the foundations of the world to be a people He has chosen for Himself to be pillars of the New City. He chose those who choose Him. So when you throw around the term God as though it is actually God, nothing could be further from the truth, because in reality, you are rejecting God who entered His creation to pay for the sins of the world. Thus, you have fellowship with some evil spirit according to the Scriptures. You've propped up some idol whatever that may be in God's place. Satan fashions himself as an angel of light: "But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11.14). This angel that you worship is one that says you can be saved by your own strength and power. Pride begets the fall. Whereas the Bible contrasts faith and works. Works are unto rewards not to receive initial salvation.

While you may not care enough about me to lead me to your salvation, I care enough about you to lead you to the salvation that saves you in Christ. Jesus says to spread the gospel to the nations. You say you shouldn't help others this way. I am with Jesus. Your beliefs do harm others, because it is selfish to reject what Jesus did for you, leading people down a false path. Since Christianity is proven to be true, and your faith is proven to be false yet don't want to repent, what is left for your but the Lake of Fire and to be blotted out of the Book of Life.

Jesus never hurt anyone so the religion of Christianity has never hurt anyone. False religion has hurt people and your faith has hurt people, and pantheism has hurt people because it has an amoral God, thus, deemphasizing morality for blithe energy claiming yourself a part of even to call yourself God. My God is not sparks. He is conscientious and caring and has a mind. He is Spirit. Making God just blithe energy is a reflection of a decrepit and immoral condition.

Nobody is belittling you. How else is someone to tell you that the word is Aryanism and not Arianism? However, I don't think you ever even realized this was a mistake till now which tells me something of you and how little you put thought into what you said. You could have just said thank you. If I had made the same mistake, I would be thankful you corrected me. Pride takes it personally when a mistake is pointed out.

You said I am not accepting of your right to choose. Why assume that? Perhaps if you understood what a Christian believes you would not make that accusation. A Christian believes God created us in His image with free will, but that will has fallen due to sin. However, God has a plan always. He responds by giving us sufficient grace to have the free choice, fully capably of accepting God's provision though His only begotten Son. Since we can't save ourselves as no works would satisfy God (Cain gave an offering of works, Abel an offering of non-works), He enters His creation to pay the ransom for us for those sins that must be righteously and justly punished. Even one little sin eternally separates us from God. So you can see how prescient God's solution is. No other religions explains this reality because they are all based on self-strength to bridge the gap between yourselves and God. Ultimately, all other religions, faiths, world-views are of Satan. "In whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4.4).

Christians know who are going to Hell. I know that you are going to Hell as part of the gospel because you admit you refuse what God did for you on the cross. But I don't think you are all too clear on your own view, leaving contradictions unchecked, as you are busying yourself in the world and not God's desire for you. Perhaps you are a universalist which claims everyone is saved in the afterlife. Perhaps you think you will cease to exist and decay into the particles of this universe and that that is all there is for you. Not very comforting nor realistic since you are made in God's image as a sovereign being; therefore, you could never lose your identity, but that identity must be eternally separated from God if you refuse to be with Him.

Sounds like a fair deal don't you think? Personally, you wouldn't want it any other way in this grand design of His.