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Thread: My clinical death experience contradicts soul sleep! I talk to dead people

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    Default My clinical death experience contradicts soul sleep! I talk to dead people

    AlanMcDougall died numerous times due to heart block/and came back

    On the 18th August 2011 I died numerous times on the resuscitation table due tothird stage heart block. I went through the whole drama of my heart stopping,flat lining over and over again, adrenaline, atropine were injected directlyinto my heart and the shock paddles and chest depressions, used over and overagain in a desperate effort to get my heart to beat again on its own.

    If I had any doubts about life after death I have none now, each time my heartstopped my soul or consciousness left my body and went into other dimensions ofexistence. At first

    I only remembered a little of what went on in those three hours of life anddeath struggle but lately have begun to remember more and more about thestrange otherworldly realms I saw over the period of three hours. Each timethey got my heart to beat I came back.

    I saw numerous people all gathered to welcome me into the afterlife, all mybeloved were there. It seemed like a welcome home party but as soon as thedoctors got my heart to beat I was drawn back to the earthly world.

    Another time I saw a tree with a lot of books situated around it. Reading whatwas on the covers I saw that they contained all the knowledge and mysteries ofexistence.

    One very large book seem to consolidate what was in all the smaller books butwhen I tried to lift it was too heavy to carry and I decided to return laterfor it

    II saw a beautiful pulsating orb of golden light that I took for the Lord Jesusas it emanated perfect peace and love. I had no tunnel and meeting of a being oflight I think because I was continually being resuscitated by the medical team

    After three hours the doctors installed a temporary pacemaker to maintain mypulse between 65/110 beats per/minute instead of the 5 to zero it had beenbeating/not beating most of the time on the resuscitation table. I was told bythe doctor that I had been “really really dead”

    The doctor said if I had arrived hospital even five minutes later it would havebeen impossible to revive me. I am 71 years of age now and would not haveminded if I had died then , but I suppose there must be some things left for meto do, because a whole lot of favourable coincidences made it possible for meto survive


    I had taken nap on that Thursday night and a dear friend of mine phoned late atnight, a thing he had never done before, I woke up with heart going crazyalmost stopping, my wife immediately called the for the ambulance and they gotto my home in seven minute flat, the hospital is less than a half kilometrefrom my home and I was there in five minutes and went I got attentionimmediately.

    Note if my friend did not phone me at the exact moment he did, I would neverhave woken up and died in my sleep

    I now have a permanent pacemaker in my chest which should last ten years anddespite the great shock I am felling very alive and well

    Note; the medical term for what happened to me is Complete AV heart block

    Love

    Alan McDougall

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    There is no evidence to show what you experienced was anything more than a dream. Whereas other studies show verifiable data that the person could see what was happening on the operating table and events outside the hospital pointing out things he could not have known otherwise, but this is in transition to soul sleep. When people have visions of 3rd heaven they are witnessing future events because nobody is resurrected yet according to 1 Thess. 4.14-18.

    "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.14-18).

    Not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet. "For David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2.34).

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    There is no evidence to show what you experienced was anything more than a dream. Whereas other studies show verifiable data that the person could see what was happening on the operating table and events outside the hospital pointing out things he could not have known otherwise, but this is in transition to soul sleep. When people have visions of 3rd heaven they are witnessing future events because nobody is resurrected yet according to 1 Thess. 4.14-18.

    "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.14-18).

    Not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet. "For David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2.34).
    You speak as if you are an expert, which you are not! Take the case of Paul when he was taken into the third heaven. The Jews had stoned him and this stoning always led to the death of the victim. Thus he was taken to the third heaven, where he saw unspeakable things or unexplainable things, he came back like I did , God has not stopped doing miracles in this day and age. King David was a sinner , just like me, so he had to wait in the underworld after he died , and wait there for Jesus to preached to the righteous dead. These people in hell were not in a state of soul sleep, they were conscious and in a place of waiting for the Lord to come to them, that is an indisputable fact. There was also much more to my experience and I did see things that were going on around me, such as observing the monitor flat-lining and going beeeeep even though my brain was completely cut off and incapable of reacting to anything , because my heart had stopped completely and a brain without a blood supply is dead to the outside world.



    Have you reached the stage of clinically death like I did that night, if not please don’t take the view that you are some sort of an expert in the topic? Are you absolutely 100% sure you are right about how you interpret every word in the Bible,I can only realate what I experience and it was not a dream, I had a much more profound near death experience in 1994 when I became very ill.

    Like wise I was not dreaming I know the difference between a dream and what I experienced that night ,
    Dreams are like wise mostly symbolic or nonsensical in content.

    Before much was known about the phenomenon of the NDE, they were simply dismissed by doctors and others as hallucinations, dreams or a by-product of the increasingly dysfunctional brain during its dying process.

    Unlike the mostly vivid and beautiful, peaceful, lucid, ordered and logical clinically death experience I had, hallucinations are varied, bizarre, and extremely idiosyncratic and peculiar and upsetting in content. Hallucinations take place while the person is awake, while most NDE take place when the person is clinically dead


    Virtually all NDEs display a logical progression of identifiable stages and take place most of the time when the person was clinically dead as was in my case last August 2011

    Those who have experienced both NDE and hallucinations or dreams say that they are profoundly different, the first is usually peaceful and beautiful, the others sometimes very bizarre and disturbing in the extreme.


    It really saddens me when I see all this doctrinal fighting between Christians, each one absolutely sure they are right and anyone that thinks differently from them is wrong or lying. This sort of intolerance is the reason why false cults such as Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are filling the cap, because all this bickering on tiny differences has fragmented the Church of Jesus Christ and Satan comes in and deceives countless disillusioned former believers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan McDougall View Post
    You speak as if you are an expert, which you are not! Take the case of Paul when he was taken into the third heaven. The Jews had stoned him and this stoning always led to the death of the victim. Thus he was taken to the third heaven, where he saw unspeakable things or unexplainable things, he came back like I did , God has not stopped doing miracles in this day and age. King David was a sinner , just like me, so he had to wait in the underworld after he died , and wait there for Jesus to preached to the righteous dead. These people in hell were not in a state of soul sleep, they were conscious and in a place of waiting for the Lord to come to them, that is an indisputable fact. There was also much more to my experience and I did see things that were going on around me, such as observing the monitor flat-lining and going beeeeep even though my brain was completely cut off and incapable of reacting to anything , because my heart had stopped completely and a brain without a blood supply is dead to the outside world.
    One doesn't need to be an expert in the field but simply draw from experts and the word of God which shows there are no instances in Scripture of a person seeing loved ones in 3rd heaven presently. Therefore, such concoctions are that of the fleshly such as yourself. Nobody is saying God has stopped doing miracles, nor can we construe Paul's physical attacks as coming back from the dead. Your biggest hurdle is evidence which you have none.

    The circumstances surrounding stoning of Paul was not for certain death. You would need to provide evidence for that. Nobody is in Hell. The first person to go to Hell with be the Antichrist at the start of the millennial kingdom. The second person will be the False Prophet. The 3rd being will be Satan at the end of the 1000 years. Nobody has ever gone to Hell yet. Hades is not Hell. Hades is that place of soul sleep. You can't throw Hell into Hell in Rev. 20. But you can throw Hades into Hell.

    The Jews even call it Paradise below. Jesus preaching to people in the good side Hades was figurative by the fact He went down there upon His death at the cross, yet they were asleep. Your additional testimony is not supportive to your case because you need to see things that are out of the ordinary that you could not have suspected. You provide nothing.

    Like wise I was not dreaming I know the difference between a dream and what I experienced that night ,
    Dreams are like wise mostly symbolic or nonsensical in content.
    You were dreaming as part of your near death experience. This is God-given, but it is still a dream. Whereas others we can be confident were back from the dead because they reported things they could not have known otherwise. Your stories about gigantic books, pulsating orbs and other silly stuff give it a Alice in Wonderland feel typical of dreams, not in keeping with the Scriptures. In Scripture there are no welcome parties.

    I am only here to verify data that you could not have known otherwise. You present nothing. In fact, you admit your story expands in later years as you add more detail that was not originally present. That is very damaging to your testimony.

    I don't believe you because of these reasons. If someone gave a 3rd heaven experience, but it was in keeping with Scriptures yet they could not verify anything, I would still accept their testimony. They could still have made it up, but at least I wouldn't condemn them for it. Whereas with you I judge your testimony as being false from 3rd heaven because it doesn't agree with God's word. I gave you the verses already. That must hurt your pride greatly.

  5. #5

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    Your tone is unpleasant and mean , not loving but adamant that you ae Right and I am wrong. Have you ever been pronounced clinically dead? This smacks of someone who believes that Timbuktu is a myth, because you have never been there meant it does not exist. You almost called me a deluded liar I take serious umbrage to this!

    I NEVER SAID I WENT TO ANY 3 HEAVEN READ MY POST AGAIN! Millions of loving born again Christians do not believe in soul sleep and can back it up with scripture, how do you know for certain they are wrong and you are right?.

    You said the third heaven is about the future where the heck did you get this nonsense from , have you been there.?

    READ WHAT IS WRITTEN BELOW.

    http://graceambassadors.com/warnings...ith-soul-sleep

    By Justin Johnson (I don't know him but agree completely with his comments)

    The teaching of the mortality of the soul or “soul sleep” is not a novel teaching. Nor is it a new concept among those who recognize the mystery of Christ.

    Though this doctrine is clearly unsupported by the Bible if taken in its literal English, it continues to be taught alongside the revelation of the mystery to the confusion of those searching the scriptures.

    Below is a list of general problems that should be considered if you have been affected by the teachers of soul sleep.

    Hopefully, we can become fully persuaded as to the truth as we consider all of scripture, in its context, and believing every word.

    Problem Verses


    There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.



    • Matthew 12:40 (Jonah 2) – Jonah spoke as one from hell who was dead. Matthew 17:2-3 – Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.



      Matthew 22:31-32
      – Abraham was dead, but still living.


      Luke 16:19-31
      – Jesus tells the story of dead people speaking in hell. (Some wrongly think this is a parable. It is not. If soul sleep were true then the story is not only false, but the Lord is misleading his hearers as to what is real. This is significant evidence that the dead are not only conscious but can speak and feel.)


      Luke 23:43
      – Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him “today”.


      1 Thessalonians 5:10
      – Whether they wake or sleep they live with the Lord.


      2 Corinthians 5:6-8
      – Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.


      2 Corinthians 12:2-4
      – Paul describes someone who heard things possibly out of his body.


      Philippians 1:23
      – Paul says that he would depart to be with Christ, not unconscious.


      Revelation 6:9-11
      – The soul is dead and is crying out to God.


    Problem Definitions

    Many of the concepts below are misunderstood, denied, or ignored by those who teach the unconscious dead.


    • Death
      does not mean unconsciousness, but rather separation. The only time it means cessation of activity is when it applies to the body.

      Body
      is not the soul; soul is not the body; spirit is not the soul.

      Sleep
      never refers to the soul or spirit. It only applies to the body.

      Man
      does not exist only in his body.


    Problem Methods


    To arrive at a belief in the unconscious state of the dead the wrong methods below must be used. Doctrines that rely on spiritualization and other languages do not provide a strong defense.

    • Spiritualization is used to deny the literal meaning of many passages. Luke 16 is the most abused in this way. Language games are used to remove the English words (which do not provide evidence) and replace them with more ambiguous Greek and Hebrew.


    Consequential Problems


    There are serious practical consequences of the doctrine of the unconscious dead.

    • It removes the comfort from the verses which speak to those facing death.
    • The manipulated definitions used to support soul sleep have been used as a defense of annihilationism, no-hell, or universalism.
    • The methods used to teach it can establish a negative pattern for spiritualizing other significant doctrinal passages.
    • It engenders a doubtful approach to our Bible translations, perpetuating the idea that “the Greek word says” carries more weight than “the word of God says”.

    Top of the Page
    Article Index Published: October 30, 2010
    Last Modified: October 30, 2010

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    What is unpleasant and mean is deceit and lies even lies you believe to be true. False claims and trying to alter reality is ugly. Love does not do this. Humility does not accept lies. When you claim to have witnessed things in 3rd heaven you are claiming to have gone there as there is no where else these things can be that you claim you saw. But you were never there, because the aspects of your dream do not agree with the word of God of what 3rd heaven is like.

    You claim millions of Christians can back up the claim of no soul sleep with Scripture, but your proclamation doesn't make it so. I gave you the verses to show soul sleep is true and therefore, your alleged 3rd heaven experience is false.

    Matt. 12.40 does not say Hell. "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

    Matt. 17.2-3 is speaking of a future event of the millennial kingdom with Jesus, Moses and Elijah present. They are not resurrected yet, because nobody is according to 1 Thess. 4.14-18.

    Matt. 22.31-32 is referencing Abraham living who most certainly will be living when he is resurrected.

    Luke 16.19-31 says nothing of Hell. It is speaking of hades, the place of the dead. Nobody is in Hell yet. Antichrist will be the first to go to Hell. This is figurative language of those in soul sleep. Jesus is allowed to speak this way so that we may understand.

    Luke 23.43 Paradise below is soul sleep, Abraham's bosom.

    1 Thess. 5.10 Certainly they will be with the Lord when they are resurrected, that is, awaken. The time between soul sleep and resurrection can be thousands of years or just a day. It depends when a person came into this world and went to sleep.

    2 Cor. 5.6-8 To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, but the time is not stipulated from when that will be when resurrection takes place at the end of this age.

    2 Cor. 12.2-4 Paul was in 3rd heaven in spirit able to see things, but he was not actually there physically. This was the same John experienced when he was taken up in spirit to 3rd heaven to witness the things he saw to write the book of Revelation.

    Phil. 1.23 does not preclude a time of being unconscious before resurrection.

    Rev. 6.9-11 because they are raptured to 3rd heaven (not yet but at the first rapture) they cry out to the Lord and the Lord says to them wait a little longer till the rest of their brethren come in during the Tribulation. The 7 year Tribulation hasn't started yet. Remember, rapture and resurrection takes place at the end of this age. Nobody has been raptured to 3rd heaven yet. Nobody has been given a new body yet, not even Enoch and Elijah who were raptured, for they return as the Two Witnesses yet to die. 3.5 days after they go to rest they will be given new bodies when they are resurrected.

    Death has several meanings in Scripture. One is separation. Another is soul sleep.

    Man is tripartite: spirit, soul, body (Heb. 4.12). You can't come before the high priest naked which is what you are proposing. We are living souls with a body and a spirit. Without any one of these components we would be in soul sleep.

    Sleep refers to our spirit without a body. Hence the need for resurrection. Our spirit at rest like a computer turned off saves all the information; when contact is made with a new body, man's living soul is reactivated like turning the computer back on.

    Man exists in spirit, soul and body, not body only, not spirit only, not soul only, nor spirit and soul only. Angels are spirits. Man is a living soul.

    Rejecting soul sleep is spiritualizing, for these spiritualizers claim people are in heaven without bodies and there are in spirit communications with them when in reality they are evil spirits and demons masquerading as loved ones.

    There are significant problems of rejecting those in soul sleep. 1 Thess. 4.18 says "wherefore comfort one another with these words." Comfort yourselves with the fact we whom are saved will be resurrected together. There is not some party going on it heaven and a bunch of people waiting at the gates as we keep dying and immediately go there. No such instance in Scripture is given so why enter into the cult mentality that such exists now? Are you Christian? Why alter God's word?

    Soul sleep does not support annihilationism, but opposes it, since those in soul sleep are all to be resurrected whether from the good side of Hades (Paradise below) or the bad side 1000 years after the elect. Soul sleep doesn't support no-Hell, but distinguishes the place of soul sleep not being Hell. Soul sleep doesn't support universalism, for obviously those in the bad side of Hades go to Hell and those in the good side go to be with Jesus in the New City.

    As we have seen the dangers of denying soul sleep are false communications and false dreams and false outer body experiences with evil spirits passing off as loved ones. Great deception abounds.

    The word of God says nobody is in heaven yet, but these spiritualizers say they are. Since they can find not one passage to support their claim, I pray that you will reject their stance in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    Dozens of verses support soul sleep. Please study them carefully,
    http://biblocality.com/forums/entry....r-Resurrection
    http://biblocality.com/forums/conten...-Place-of-Rest

    I responded to all your attempts but notice how avoid all the verses I gave. Please. This is not a one way conversation. Participate and respond to what shows nobody is in heaven yet and nobody has been resurrected yet from soul sleep.

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    Consider this fact. Gen. 1.1 says God created perfectly. It doesn't say how long it took. We know it to be 13.7 billion years.

    Gen. 1.2 says God made desolate and waste (about 65 million years ago) due to the sin of the inhabitants of earth's earlier ages (200 million to 65 million years ago). There were about 65 million years from the desolation to the restoration and Adam and Eve.

    Similarly there is a time to be with the Lord after being in soul sleep, but for each person that time is different because we are all born at different times and die at different times. But the person in soul sleep when he wakes will not notice any time has passed because he was unconscious the whole time. 1 Thess. 4.18 is very important to comfort each other with these words that we will be resurrected together, thus, nobody has gone to 3rd heaven yet nor Hell either. When the books are opened the determination is enacted for those who go to Hell.

    Nobody immediately goes to heaven or hell upon death. There is the interim period of soul sleep either in Abraham's bosom (Paradise below, good side of Hades) or where the Rich Man went (bad side of Hades).

    The Scriptures have proven this fact. Read the many verses supplied here,
    http://biblocality.com/forums/entry....r-Resurrection
    http://biblocality.com/forums/conten...-Place-of-Rest

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    One doesn't need to be an expert in the field but simply draw from experts and the word of God which shows there are no instances in Scripture of a person seeing loved ones in 3rd heaven presently. Therefore, such concoctions are that of the fleshly such as yourself. Nobody is saying God has stopped doing miracles, nor can we construe Paul's physical attacks as coming back from the dead. Your biggest hurdle is evidence which you have none.

    The circumstances surrounding stoning of Paul was not for certain death. You would need to provide evidence for that. Nobody is in Hell. The first person to go to Hell with be the Antichrist at the start of the millennial kingdom. The second person will be the False Prophet. The 3rd being will be Satan at the end of the 1000 years. Nobody has ever gone to Hell yet. Hades is not Hell. Hades is that place of soul sleep. You can't throw Hell into Hell in Rev. 20. But you can throw Hades into Hell.

    The Jews even call it Paradise below. Jesus preaching to people in the good side Hades was figurative by the fact He went down there upon His death at the cross, yet they were asleep. Your additional testimony is not supportive to your case because you need to see things that are out of the ordinary that you could not have suspected. You provide nothing.


    You were dreaming as part of your near death experience. This is God-given, but it is still a dream. Whereas others we can be confident were back from the dead because they reported things they could not have known otherwise. Your stories about gigantic books, pulsating orbs and other silly stuff give it a Alice in Wonderland feel typical of dreams, not in keeping with the Scriptures. In Scripture there are no welcome parties.

    I am only here to verify data that you could not have known otherwise. You present nothing. In fact, you admit your story expands in later years as you add more detail that was not originally present. That is very damaging to your testimony.

    I don't believe you because of these reasons. If someone gave a 3rd heaven experience, but it was in keeping with Scriptures yet they could not verify anything, I would still accept their testimony. They could still have made it up, but at least I wouldn't condemn them for it. Whereas with you I judge your testimony as being false from 3rd heaven because it doesn't agree with God's word. I gave you the verses already. That must hurt your pride greatly.
    I want to make something absolutely clear I NEVER SAID I WENT TO THE THIRD HEAVEN YET YOU PERSIST IN SAYING I DID. Please read my post again and then comment.
    I don’t belong to any cult I am a born again Christian who belongs to no church order and know my faith and love for the Lord Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross of Calvary is sufficient for my salvation. I am saved by grace not works. The way you insist that the belief in soul sleep is so necessary that by my not believing it will lead to my damnation, "THIS MY FRIEND IS THE KIND OF DOGMA OF A CULT".
    It is a waste of my time trying to dialogue with someone how thinks he knows the truth in the absolute and anyone who differs even minutely from him is wrong.
    You are ! Dogmatic Intransigent Inflexible Unbending Adamant Obstinate

    Go to link are these people all lying?

    http://www.ndespace.org/video/video/...sg_share_video

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan McDougall View Post
    I want to make something absolutely clear I NEVER SAID I WENT TO THE THIRD HEAVEN YET YOU PERSIST IN SAYING I DID. Please read my post again and then comment. I don’t belong to any cult I am a born again Christian who belongs to no church order and know my faith and love for the Lord Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross of Calvary is sufficient for my salvation. I am saved by grace not works. The way you insist that the belief in soul sleep is so necessary that by my not believing it will lead to my damnation, "THIS MY FRIEND IS THE KIND OF DOGMA OF A CULT". It is a waste of my time trying to dialogue with someone how thinks he knows the truth in the absolute and anyone who differs even minutely from him is wrong. You are ! Dogmatic Intransigent Inflexible Unbending Adamant Obstinate
    Where do angels exist? 3rd heaven. Your claim seeing angels thus is 3rd heaven. Why be doubletongued? Please think clearly. Your sloppy thoughts are a reflection of your false faith on the subject. You are in a cult of people in heaven, naked before the high priest (without physical bodies), in your party spirt even though the Bible says nobody has been resurrected yet. Jesus was resurrected bodily. You worship another Jesus like the JW's teach was resurrected in spirit only. You are definitely confused!

    You should belong to a church order if you are a Christian, for the Bible orders the church according to locality as proven here,
    http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/whichchurch.htm

    Never do I say solely because you reject 1 Thess. 4.13-18 about the resurrection and thus, soul sleep, for it is possible for some Christians to be deceived. When you sin bearing false witness otherwise about me, it shows you are lashing out, because you are misrepresenting reality.

    For the umpteenth time you don't address these verses in Scripture given about soul sleep. A cult or one who is dogmatic responds just as you have done shutting his mind down. I doubt you will ever repent of your false teaching even for eternity.

    Remember, not all NDE's are from God. Some are from self, others from the supernatural evil and even possibly a mix. Don't just assume all NDE's are from God. That would be a grave mistake. Some of the best cases the world has ever seen are documented by Gary R. Habermas in which what was observed could not have been known to prove they are authentic.

    For example, Dr. Eben Alexander is a fraud,
    http://biblocality.com/forums/showth...0139#post10139

    This vision should agree with Scripture. His and yours do not! Coming out of an NDE to transmit false teaching is a big clue something is not right that evil spirits are hard at work in your heart.

  10. #10

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    Show me exactly where I stated I saw ANGELS you are making up ideas to further your own agenda You go on to say I will never repent given an eternity, are you God. I repented long ago namely July 1975 was born again, Jesus became personal to me then and my life changed from that moment and I got baptized. You are making dangerous statements about a person you know absolutely nothing about, be careful with your rhetoric. I am only dogmatic about what I experienced, I saw what I saw and reported it. Did you go to the link? You also change what I really said in my testimony by chancing and adding and selective editing my testimony such stating wrongly that I said I saw a pulsating orb, what I actually stated "I saw a golden orb" or I went to the third heaven, when I never stated any such thing, this is not being truthful!

    I am now almost 72 and one thing I know that if you live by absolute fundamental dogma you will have to reexamine your core beliefs before you die, just like the early Christians had to. Paul said "we only see as through a glass darkly" I know I do but you seem to think you have the whole thing rapped up and can understand even the deepest and most profound mysteries in the Bible. One day we will be able to see clearly. I will address those verses on soul sleep later as it is late at night in SA.

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