The Catholic Church

[Peter]

Baptism is not co-death, but it is burial. Burial is what takes place after one has died on the cross with Christ. Those who gave their lives to Christ not only received forgiveness of sins by the substitution of Jesus, but identification with Him when He brought us to death with Him on the cross. So after having died then one gets buried. Do you see how misread Rom. 6.3-4? "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism."

Persevering is for reigning. I am preserved but it is possible I might not persevere. Nothing is said of losing salvation. So those who are saved though they can't lose eternal life, they may yet lose the reward of reigning. "If we be dead with him, we shall also live with him" (2 Tim. 2.11). This is salvation. To live one must die. Whereas, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" (v.12). To reign one must suffer. To deny here can refer to either initial salvation or not meeting His requirement for reigning. It doesn't mean one can lose salvation.

"He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 24.13) is not referring to initial salvation since the Bible says salvation is not by works, lest any one should boast. We must maintain consistency with the Scriptures. The Bible does not contradict itself, but man does. So "the same shall be saved" is all that salvation entails in this entrance into God's fold that can be appropriated by the believer or not. For example, the 5 unwise virgins remain saved, for they still have oil in their lamps which represents the Holy Spirit, He is still their Lord and are a light to the world through their lamps, except that they don't get to enter the millennial kingdom marriage feast to reign. Once the millennium is over, only then can they enter the New City. Before then only overcomers can enter the New City. Do you see how you miss this rich aspect of the Scriptures by believing in amillennialism?

Matt. 25.31-46 pertains to the nations not to salvation. Matt. 24.4-31 deals with the Jews, and Matt. 24.32-25.30 speaks to the Church. God always has in view 3 three groups. I point this out because you misapplied Matt. 25.31-46 about the nations that are judged when Jesus returns is not about individual salvation.

"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us" (1 John 3.24). The Holy Spirit Who indwells all believers can effectively be rendered as though not even there if a Christian is negligent in his conduct. Hence, "he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him." This is not saying the Holy Spirit leaves, but that the believer has lost that union and intimacy with God's Spirit because of being worldly. He needs to be baptized to come out the world. This is the essential meaning of baptism. Water represents the world. Water can't save, it can only help you overcometh by forsaking it.

To be cut off when speaking to believers is not losing eternal life but losing that communion with the Lord and intimacy with Him. This is seen in the parable of the unforgiving debtor (Matt. 18.21-35). "The kingdom of heaven can be compared to...." The kingdom of heaven is three things: 1) outward appearance (including saved and unsaved who appear to be saved), 2) outward conduct (unto rewards), 3) the reward of reigning during the 1000 years. "Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt" (Matt. 18.34). This cannot be read as God taking back His word concerning His initial grace towards redeemed sinners; but God’s subsequent grace, as illustrated in this instance, must be withdrawn by God in order to maintain His righteousness. God is not like your god who removes initial salvation, man's spirit regenerated, eternal life and the Holy Spirit. My God is bigger than that. In His infinite foreknowledge, He simply won't save you to begin with and put up with all the nonsense of you thinking you were saved one day, lost it the next, gain it back then lose it again. How absurd! Surely God can do better than that. Many don't have faith to believe Jesus can actually return in Person as He left (Zech. 14.4, Acts. 1.11, Rev. 1.7, 19.11-16) so that is why you reject the millennial kingdom on earth Jesus reigns from the 3rd Temple over the nations with His overcomers.

"Pay all that was due"—After the thousand years of discipline come to an end. If you don't believe in the 1000 year reign (Rev. 20.2-7) by thinking it is now even though the nations are not deceived in the 1000 years (v.3) then naturally you will not read these verses properly because in your cold cold heart all you see is salvation, losing salvation and getting it back again to only to lose it yet again. That would be a weird kind of salvation. But what God does is He gives eternal life once. He doesn't take it away, give it back again then take it away again. He is no fool! God simply won't save you to begin with if that is the kind of selfish salvation you want. He has infinite fore knowledge so He knows whom to give His life, and to those He lets no man pluck us out of His hand, because that is the relationship chosen to be kept. This is the God you refuse to give your life to so you remain unsaved and bound for Hell. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10.28). "Never perish" is applied to every soul who ever received eternal life. Eternal life doesn't come later. It occurs at new birth. Eternal life is not only eternal blessings but an ability to have a relationship with God today. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17.3).

Many have no faith to believe this so they pride themselves on a works-based salvation and power in themselves to keep themselves saved, but of course, no man has such power and just deceiving themselves because they are really propping up themselves as almighty able to do what only God could do. You'll be saved when you are willing with the humbleness of heart to trust in the God who keeps, not before. This is the gospel (1 Cor. 15.1-2). In 2 Pet. 2.20-21 the person was never saved to begin with but only came close to the door of salvation. it would have been better they had never known about Christ because their punishment in Hell will be worse than it was otherwise for rejecting Jesus.

Whoever thinks he is standing firm should humble himself, because a humble heart is one that does not exalt oneself (1 Cor. 10.11-12). "Lest he fall" does not mean losing salvation, but lose rewards. A person who is saved who falls doesn't fall all the way. You can walk and fall down, but you are not crippled for life. Paul, indeed, could be disqualified. But disqualified from what? To run the race first you must be saved. How you run that race then determines your standing. To make it to the next heat of the race is the goal. If you just beat the air and are not in subjection to the Lord, you will be "cast away" (1 Cor. 9.27) into "outer darkness" for 1000 years. Each time this phrase is used in the Bible never does it have with it any attachment to a fire or a furnace. The darkness is to indicate it is outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ for the 1000 years. So What Paul is saying is he can't be certain if he will be included in the first rapture (according to readiness) and the millennial reign first resurrection rewards. Paul knew with certainty he is saved and can never lose eternal life. This is the same salvation I have and you don't have! Satan teaches you can lose salvation and that you can never know for sure. That's a life not worth living for you are just being manipulated and controlled by the evil Roman Church empire.

If someone asked me if you were saved, I would say to them you are not saved because you were too selfish to enter into the faith with the God who promises to keep. You did not want to be absolutely and necessarily kept because you are selfish and self-involved. You're in a bad marriage with one foot out the door, your prenuptial and able to get a divorce at any moment. I have no such relationship and know no such God. I am secured for life and thus, equipped to run the race. Your god is completely foreign to me.

"And it is this Good News that saves you if you firmly believe it [the born-again "shall never perish" John 10.28]--unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place [a person could lose salvation]" (1 Cor. 15.2). "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11.26). It does not say "whosoever...keepest on believing me shall never die...." He who is dead shall not forever die. In other words, though a Christian can receive the hurt of the second death it is only temporary to correct his behavior. Whereas those who overcometh need no such correction. Eternal life is eternal, it can never be abrogated as we did not want it to be when we gave our lives to Christ so God remains faithful. The Lord Jesus (John 5.24), Paul (Romans 8.38-39), and John (1 John 5.11-13) have no qualms about offering absolute, objective assurance of salvation. We that were actually born-again "hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5.24). You can't be born-again again. You can only be born in the flesh once. And you can only be born-again once. If you think you can lose salvation and get it back to be born-again again, you were never born-again in the first place.
That's total nonsense!

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12). "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [perfect] it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.6). You have no such confidence because you prefer the evil spirit masquerading as an angel of light residing in your innerman and tells you otherwise, so you insert into the text at random what is not explicitly stated. You are not persuaded but "I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39). You can yet be separated you admit. Therefore, while you can become like me, I can never become like you be cause once-saved-always-saved. "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11.29). "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself" (2 Tim. 2.13). "But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God" (John 1.12). A child of God is a child of God forever in God's book. "These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13) which can never be lost.

"But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee" (2 Cor. 1.21-22). We have a "guarantee" and He "has sealed us" but you admit He has not sealed us and you have no such guarantee and that's sad. Since you admit you are not sealed and this salvation is foreign to you, just realize you were never born-again. But do not fret! Now is your time to give your life to Christ for the first time in your life and so shall you be saved. Praise the Lord! Amen.

[CatholicCrusader]

Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again."

For an Evangelical, becoming "born again" often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be "born again."

"If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!" says the preacher. So the gentleman makes "a decision for Christ" and at the altar call goes forward to be led in "the sinner’s prayer" by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—"born again." But is the minister right? Not according to the Bible.

The Names of the New Birth
Regeneration (being "born again") is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17). To understand the biblical teaching of being born again, we must understand the terms it uses to refer to this event.

The term "born again" may not appear in the Bible. The Greek phrase often translated "born again" (gennatha anothen) occurs twice in the Bible—John 3:3 and 3:7—and there is a question of how it should be translated. The Greek word anothen sometimes can be translated "again," but in the New Testament, it most often means "from above." In the King James Version, the only two times it is translated "again" are in John 3:3 and 3:7; every other time it is given a different rendering.

Another term is "regeneration." When referring to something that occurs in the life of an individual believer, it only appears in Titus 3:5. In other passages, the new birth phenomenon is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12), and becoming a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).

Regeneration in John 3
These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son" (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17).

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), "Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized" (John 3:22).

Then we have the witness of the early Church that John 3:5 refers to baptismal regeneration. This was universally recognized by the early Christians. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching this:

In A.D. 151, Justin Martyr wrote, "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true . . . are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61).

Around 190, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, wrote, "And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34).

In the year 252, Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage, said that when those becoming Christians "receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]" (Letters 71[72]:1).

Augustine wrote, "From the time he [Jesus] said, ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], and again, ‘He that loses his life for my sake shall find it’ [Matt. 10:39], no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ or death for Christ" (On the Soul and Its Origin 1:10 [A.D. 419]).

Augustine also taught, "It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5]. The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

Regeneration in the New Testament
The truth that regeneration comes through baptism is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Paul reminds us in Titus 3:5 that God "saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit."

Paul also said, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:3–4).

This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, "In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ" (NIV).

The Effects of Baptism
Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "[b]aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.

Protestants on Regeneration
Martin Luther wrote in his Short Catechism that baptism "works the forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal life to all who believe." His recognition that the Bible teaches baptismal regeneration has been preserved by Lutherans and a few other Protestant denominations. Even some Baptists recognize that the biblical evidence demands the historic Christian teaching of baptismal regeneration. Notable individuals who recognized that Scripture teaches baptismal regeneration include Baptist theologians George R. Beasley-Murray and Dale Moody.

Nevertheless, many Protestants have abandoned this biblical teaching, substituting man-made theories on regeneration. There are two main views held by those who deny the scriptural teaching that one is born again through baptism: the "Evangelical" view, common among Baptists, and the "Calvinist" view, common among Presbyterians.

Evangelicals claim that one is born again at the first moment of faith in Christ. According to this theory, faith in Christ produces regeneration. The Calvinist position is the reverse: Regeneration precedes and produces faith in Christ. Calvinists (some of whom also call themselves Evangelicals) suppose that God "secretly" regenerates people, without their being aware of it, and this causes them to place their faith in Christ.

To defend these theories, Evangelicals and Calvinists attempt to explain away the many unambiguous verses in the Bible that plainly teach baptismal regeneration. One strategy is to say that the water in John 3:5 refers not to baptism but to the amniotic fluid present at childbirth. The absurd
implication of this view is that Jesus would have been saying, "You must be born of amniotic fluid and the Spirit." A check of the respected Protestant Greek lexicon, Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, fails to turn up any instances in ancient, Septuagint or New Testament Greek where "water" (Greek: hudor) referred to "amniotic fluid" (VIII:314–333).

Evangelicals and Calvinists try to deal with the other verses where new life is attributed to baptism either by ignoring them or by arguing that it is not actually water baptism that is being spoken of. The problem for them is that water is explicitly mentioned or implied in each of these verses.

In Acts 2:38, people are exhorted to take an action: "Be baptized . . . in the name of Jesus Christ," which does not refer to an internal baptism that is administered to people by themselves, but the external baptism administered to them by others.

We are told that at Paul’s conversion, "he rose and was baptized, and took food and was strengthened. For several days he was with the disciples at Damascus" (Acts 9:18–19). This was a water baptism. In Romans 6 and Colossians 2, Paul reminds his readers of their water baptisms, and he neither says nor implies anything about some sort of "invisible spiritual baptism."

In 1 Peter 3, water is mentioned twice, paralleling baptism with the flood, where eight were "saved through water," and noting that "baptism now saves you" by the power of Christ rather than by the physical action of water "removing . . . dirt from the body."

The anti-baptismal regeneration position is indefensible. It has no biblical basis whatsoever. So the answer to the question, "Are Catholics born again?" is yes! Since all Catholics have been baptized, all Catholics have been born again. Catholics should ask Protestants, "Are you born again—the way the Bible understands that concept?" If the Evangelical has not been properly water baptized, he has not been born again "the Bible way," regardless of what he may think.

[Nottheworld]

Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again."

For an Evangelical, becoming "born again" often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be "born again."

"If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!" says the preacher. So the gentleman makes "a decision for Christ" and at the altar call goes forward to be led in "the sinner’s prayer" by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—"born again." But is the minister right? Not according to the Bible.

The moment of initial salvation has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism is a coming out of the world once one has the new life. A person can't come out of worldly things if he is not first regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given new life.

Logic alone states there must first be the spark of regeneration before the regenerated life can begin.

Most Christians are not saved at some altar call. Just ask them. For example, I was born-again over a dinner table having a conversation with someone realizing all things summed up in Christ. It was very spontaneous. That is not to say there is something wrong with an altar call, though it must be genuine and sincere and not forced. Often times it is forced so it doesn't stick so it was not real in the first place. Sincerity finds its way in more intimate settings than mass.

The Names of the New Birth
Regeneration (being "born again") is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17). To understand the biblical teaching of being born again, we must understand the terms it uses to refer to this event.

The term "born again" may not appear in the Bible. The Greek phrase often translated "born again" (gennatha anothen) occurs twice in the Bible—John 3:3 and 3:7—and there is a question of how it should be translated. The Greek word anothen sometimes can be translated "again," but in the New Testament, it most often means "from above." In the King James Version, the only two times it is translated "again" are in John 3:3 and 3:7; every other time it is given a different rendering.

Another term is "regeneration." When referring to something that occurs in the life of an individual believer, it only appears in Titus 3:5. In other passages, the new birth phenomenon is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12), and becoming a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).

Actually, 1 Pet. 1.3 says, "Being born again...." Since someone to be transformed into life requires regeneration, this is exclusive of baptism of water and the Spirit. You should not confuse the two.

Regeneration in John 3
These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son" (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17).

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), "Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized" (John 3:22).

Then we have the witness of the early Church that John 3:5 refers to baptismal regeneration. This was universally recognized by the early Christians. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching this:

In A.D. 151, Justin Martyr wrote, "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true . . . are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61).

Around 190, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, wrote, "And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34).

In the year 252, Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage, said that when those becoming Christians "receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]" (Letters 71[72]:1).

Augustine wrote, "From the time he [Jesus] said, ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], and again, ‘He that loses his life for my sake shall find it’ [Matt. 10:39], no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ or death for Christ" (On the Soul and Its Origin 1:10 [A.D. 419]).

Augustine also taught, "It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5]. The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

Being born of the Spirit is regeneration. This meaning doesn't change. Being born of the water is simply washing away sins in forgiveness which happens with Jesus as our substitution. Forgiveness is by the Spirit through the cross. Baptism is what then follows of coming out of the world, dying to the world, and come out of the world as coming out of the water. Being born-again never is associated with baptism. Pentecostals mistakenly call this baptism of the Spirit gibberish babble tongues. Roman Catholics call it the new birth. You're all wrong.

The context in John 3 is water because that is how Nicodemus perceived things from John the Baptist baptising by water, but baptism at its center is with or without water. Perhaps a person is in a desert for several days without water. Surely God is not restricting him from being baptized by the Holy Spirit without water. Let us not be foolish and earthly in our thinking as the world is.

John 3.5 is not a baptismal regeneration, for we read, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3.5).

If any church fathers misunderstood this, you can understand why Jesus said call no man your father on earth. Again, born of water is the washing away of sins through the atoning forgiveness of our Lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit who then indwells the regenerated spirit of a believer. Whereas baptism of water is burial and the Holy Spirit in coming out the world, no longer belonging to it. Many Christians remain caught up in the world, and thus, they shall not enter the reigning period which is the kingdom of God or kingdom of heaven. Baptism is not being born but it is the burial. Once one has died naturally they are buried even buried to the world so it has no effect on us anymore.

Children are not born-again, for they have not reached the age of accountability to have the free-choice. A child if he died would be saved, but not on account of being born-again, because to be born-again requires the free-choice. Whereas a child would not have been given the choice so the child is saved on the condition of still being a child. And possibly God accounts for that soul as well that they are saved because if they had lived a full life they would have given their life to Christ anyhow.

The Holy Spirit has confirmed by the word of God, Augustine was never born-again. He worshiped a false Christ of irresistibly imposed regeneration. What love is that? How is that relational? If it s evil for us to behave this way how could it not be for this god?

Regeneration in the New Testament
The truth that regeneration comes through baptism is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Paul reminds us in Titus 3:5 that God "saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit."

Paul also said, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:3–4).

This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, "In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ" (NIV).

Washing of regeneration is forgiveness and renewal of the Holy Spirit is given to the believer; this is not the baptism of coming out of the world being baptised with or without water and the Holy Spirit. Don't confuse the two or you will miss God's redemptive work-especially the need to be born-again that can never be lost.

Paul even says those who are in Christ that have died with Him thus get buried, buried to the world, thus having come out of the world up out of the water. Roman Catholics have no such experience because they think baptism is new birth. To walk in that newness of life is dependent on having died with Him and not only that, but being baptised with or without water to come out of the world and by the Spirit. A carnal Christian will not have this experience because he or she is still tied down to the world, unwilling to allow him or herself be buried and die to the world.

The Effects of Baptism
Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "[b]aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.

Baptism is not a symbol, so no need to sin against people by bearing false witness against them. Baptism is a real experience of coming out of the world and manifestly done before Church members to show we belong to the Church. It is impoverished to think that the new life is baptism, for then it assume a person is already delivered from the world, which of course is very rarely the case when one is first born-again.

Why wait and be baptised years later? Be baptised now at new birth. "Repent" is associated with "forgiveness of sins"; "and be baptised" is to come out of the world. Naturally do the latter also and not just the former, but in the case you only do the former, the latter will not prevent you from being born-again or to lose salvation (which is impossible anyway), it will only prevent you from the reward of returning with Christ to reign during the 1000 years and experiencing His fullness.

Noah was already saved so his being saved through water was a coming out of the world befor touching down on the new land. Once saved you should have a clean conscience, for God has forgiven so allow baptism to wash away any doubt with a clean conscience.

Protestants on Regeneration
Martin Luther wrote in his Short Catechism that baptism "works the forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal life to all who believe." His recognition that the Bible teaches baptismal regeneration has been preserved by Lutherans and a few other Protestant denominations. Even some Baptists recognize that the biblical evidence demands the historic Christian teaching of baptismal regeneration. Notable individuals who recognized that Scripture teaches baptismal regeneration include Baptist theologians George R. Beasley-Murray and Dale Moody.

Nevertheless, many Protestants have abandoned this biblical teaching, substituting man-made theories on regeneration. There are two main views held by those who deny the scriptural teaching that one is born again through baptism: the "Evangelical" view, common among Baptists, and the "Calvinist" view, common among Presbyterians.

Evangelicals claim that one is born again at the first moment of faith in Christ. According to this theory, faith in Christ produces regeneration. The Calvinist position is the reverse: Regeneration precedes and produces faith in Christ. Calvinists (some of whom also call themselves Evangelicals) suppose that God "secretly" regenerates people, without their being aware of it, and this causes them to place their faith in Christ.

To defend these theories, Evangelicals and Calvinists attempt to explain away the many unambiguous verses in the Bible that plainly teach baptismal regeneration. One strategy is to say that the water in John 3:5 refers not to baptism but to the amniotic fluid present at childbirth. The absurd implication of this view is that Jesus would have been saying, "You must be born of amniotic fluid and the Spirit." A check of the respected Protestant Greek lexicon, Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, fails to turn up any instances in ancient, Septuagint or New Testament Greek where "water" (Greek: hudor) referred to "amniotic fluid" (VIII:314–333).

Evangelicals and Calvinists try to deal with the other verses where new life is attributed to baptism either by ignoring them or by arguing that it is not actually water baptism that is being spoken of. The problem for them is that water is explicitly mentioned or implied in each of these verses.

In Acts 2:38, people are exhorted to take an action: "Be baptized . . . in the name of Jesus Christ," which does not refer to an internal baptism that is administered to people by themselves, but the external baptism administered to them by others.

We are told that at Paul’s conversion, "he rose and was baptized, and took food and was strengthened. For several days he was with the disciples at Damascus" (Acts 9:18–19). This was a water baptism. In Romans 6 and Colossians 2, Paul reminds his readers of their water baptisms, and he neither says nor implies anything about some sort of "invisible spiritual baptism."

In 1 Peter 3, water is mentioned twice, paralleling baptism with the flood, where eight were "saved through water," and noting that "baptism now saves you" by the power of Christ rather than by the physical action of water "removing . . . dirt from the body."

The anti-baptismal regeneration position is indefensible. It has no biblical basis whatsoever. So the answer to the question, "Are Catholics born again?" is yes! Since all Catholics have been baptized, all Catholics have been born again. Catholics should ask Protestants, "Are you born again—the way the Bible understands that concept?" If the Evangelical has not been properly water baptized, he has not been born again "the Bible way," regardless of what he may think.

Luther was just as unsaved and going to Hell along with Augustine and Calvin and Roman Catholics (they all come from the same dirty cloth of selfish faith), all teachers of baptismal regeneration and/or irresistibly imposed regeneration reflecting the evil god they worshiped. Since there is no baptismal regeneration in the Bible and no baptism of children in the Bible, realize baptism is something that happens after one is saved and not before. If you have no appreciation for this I can be confident you are unsaved.

There is no evidence for this secret regeneration before faith. God constantly implores us to believe on Him to be saved, so clearly, regeneration follows the obtaining of faith which we are all freely afforded whosoever is willing. Calvinists are wrong just as Roman Catholics (Remonstrants) are wrong. The latter is wrong because they teach a person who is born-again can go to Hell, and the former is wrong because all is of their god irresistibly imposed (no true free will). Neither of these are Evangelists of the faith once taught by the Apostles (Eph. 4.11).

The problem with both the Romans and the Calvinists is that they don't understand physical water is earthly. The New Earth will be without the sea just as the Old Earth will be burnt up without the sea. Water can't do anything by itself. By demanding physical water to be born-again is one of the 4 tenets of Judaism, namely "earthly promises". Physical water is earthly. Hence, when one is baptised it is not to be born-again but simply to express one's desire even by water to come out of the world after one is saved. Simple as pie to understand. Not so simple for the Romans and their offspring of Calvinists. This is not justification by faith - the Reformation. They highjacked the reformation and call themselves Reformers. I can see you Satan in your manipulations. I see you you cunning serpent, old dragon, fallen Lucifer. I see what you are doing behind the scenes and you will lose. You already lost at the cross.

It should be enough to satisfy your heart that there is no baptismal regeneration verses in the Bible. This is constructed by men as an idol in a carnal system such as Lutheranism or Roman Catholism, etc. Hence, the silly arguments by both sides about amniotic fluid totally miss the point altogether. How shallow indeed!

Acts 2.38 doesn't mention water. It is open to the experience of the believer once saved, he can come out of the world as symbolized by the water by the power of the Spirit. You can actually use salt or ketchup or diet coke or olive oil if you like. Christians are flexible. No mention of water in Acts 9.18-19 for Paul. Baptism can be with or without water. Praise the Lord for this discernment! When water is mentioned by Paul or others, though they don't always do so, it is only because that is to the level of their understanding since John the Baptist baptised by water and Jesus was baptised by water, but the baptism itself is a coming out of the world after one is born-again and never before.

Being saved through water is not the initial salvation, but the commitment that follows thereafter of coming out of the world once being saved. It is really not that hard to understand except for those who have no life, who are legalists and try to Judaize Christianity with earthly rules. That will never do. The petty self is strong in these ones.

Roman Catholics and Calvinists are anti-baptismal, because baptism is not baptismal regeneration, but to come out of the world, to lose attachment to it and so forth. So to answer the question whether Roman Catholics are no born-again the answer is clear NO, because they did not experience new birth which is a salvation that can never be lost. They say they can lose salvation tomorrow-a selfish out-clause in the contract. So they are not justified by faith, but justified by a prenuptial. But God takes no prenuptials in a marriage contract. The marriage is for eternity. Any who do not want this eternal relationship-eternally secured-need not have it. Romans don't want it; so they remain unegenerates. That is their choice and have nobody to blame but themselves for their wrong choice. Since to them salvation is by works, baptismally with water only, this shows they boast in their flesh and earthly prowess, but the Bible says we are not saved by works lest any man should boast. Nor are Calvinists saved because they refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, instead assuming by works they were irresistibly selected in baptismal regeneration in assuming they were irresisistibly selected. How that is that really genuinely coming to the cross as a helpless sinner to be regenerated? That's not the Jesus my friends or I gave our lives to so Calvinists worship a false Christ. They had no choice in the affair they allege, but Satan irresisitbly imposes himself, not God. Do you see the conradictory nature of doublespeak?: they said they had no choice in the affair but nonelessthess, they chose to take this position. This same Calvinistic undertone exists in the Roman Church also through the idea of baptismal regeneration. As long as you go and get it, king or peasant, you can assume you are saved; yet, you can also lose it? The twisted work of Satan knows no bounds in contradicting himself endlessly. It gets more ludicrous by the moment. True faith does not contradict itself.

It is not that Catholics have not been baptised, but into what have they been baptised? They have been baptised by Satanic grace into Satan's counterfeit salvation which renders them remaining unsaved and bound for Hell. I am very sad for them for they know not what they do. Satan is most pleased if he can get you to believe you have been saved in a false salvation. His work is done. What more does he need do but wait for you to join him in Hell when you are resurrected together at the end of the 1000 year reign that Roman Catholics also don't believe in Rev. 20.7-8. There is nothing much that resembles Christianity that can be found on the Roman Church.

Baptism can be deemed a work going down into water as the Romans and Calvinists teach needing physical work. But we are not saved by works. Works are unto rewards not for initial salvation. And not any works will do but only those works foreordained by God well pleasing in His sight. Often Christians do a work that is not sanctioned by God so they miss their reward.

Whereas a Christian after being saved gets baptized to express His willingness to come out of the world and actually come out of the world. Since for Calvinists and Romans they have no such experience because they were never born-again because the treat baptism as the initial salvation, we can see they have never given their lives to Christ. If you don't give your life to the God who keeps, accepting the free-choice to do so, you are not a child of God, and at this point if you have read this far, I don't you will ever give your life to Christ if you haven't done so already.

[everstill]

"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication [and much unpunished pedophilia], and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand [Roman Church killed so many Christians throughout the centuries]. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever" (Rev. 19.1-3).

From the nuclear bomb seen in Rev. 8 (in the first half of the 7 year Tribulation), expounded on further in Rev. 17.16, again her destruction is made clear that the Vatican has been nuked, and so shall the prophecy be fulfilled when Peter of Rome becomes the 666th Pope counting from Roman Numerals since 1978 when Napoleon killed the Pope through the events of 1797-99.