ReL vinsight4u @ christianforums.com

Quote Originally Posted by vinsight4u
We shall all be changed at the last trump, we all put on righteousness at the same time. Those in Rev. 7 are not the small number of saints you try to find pre-trib raptured, they are great tribultion martyrs.
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15.52).

This verse does not say everyone is raptured at the same time at the last trumpet. It only says that those "who have died" and those who are living at the time of this last trump will be transformed in the blink of an eye. If you are "alive" and "left" (1 Thess. 4.17) necessarily it would have been because you were not "taken" (Matt. 24.40-42) at the first rapture to come "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff). The Two Witnesses are also raptured at a different time. They are raptured 3.5 days after they are martyred.

These are the martyrs who come out of the Great Tribulation (see Rev. 7.9-17) you claim. There is a weakness to your argument. First, no mention of martyrdom defines them in the passage. Second, the “great multitude, which no man could number” (7.9) must exceed the number of 200 million (“twice ten thousand times ten thousand”) which is the biggest among many numbers cited in the book of Revelation (9.16). Taking today’s population at about 7 billion, there will still be over 4.5 billion souls after one third are killed (Rev.9.16). With a savings ratio of between 1 in 100 and 1 in 300, 45 million to 15 million would be saved. This does not even come close to 200 million. Such a numberless multitude who “come out of the great tribulation” mentioned in the Revelation 7 passage must therefore have reference to those overcoming saints who come out of the great tribulation experienced by all believers throughout the twenty centuries of church history.

Rev. 7.9-17 This section sketches for us this scene in heaven. Who is the great multitude? Though we dare not conclude definitely that this refers to the whole church, we would nevertheless say that it includes the majority of the redeemed of God; that is, it consists of those in the first rapture, plus that great number who are raised from the dead, together with the relatively smaller number of those who yet remain alive on earth and are changed. Here we are not shown how the church is raptured, only an outline description is given of the heavenly scene after the church has been raptured.

Please note that 7.9-17 narrates the period from the rapture (the first rapture) to eternity (the new heaven and the new earth). What is described in 7.15-17 depicts the same scene as is found in 21.3-7.

Note also that 7.9-17 only deals with rapture generally, not exclusively; and neither does it speak exclusively of the scene of eternal blessing. Consequently, we must not conclude that what is given here is indicative of the rapture of the whole church once and for all; for nothing is said as to how this vast multitude got there, it only states that they are there.

The reason why it is placed here between Rev. 6 and Rev. 8 is because Rev. 6 is the past 20 centuries and Rev. 8 begins the Tribulation. Hence, the first rapture according to readiness is placed in between. This is commensurate with Rev. 12 of which there are many similarities. A small group of overcomers are raptured beforehand, represented by the man-child that comes out of the woman-God's eternal will. This group would equate to about 1/7th of believers alive at the time of the first rapture since 1 of the 7 churches was an overcomer church.

These came out of great tribulation. The trumpets sound in Rev. 7. Paul wrote as to how he has a crown laid up - and so do others that love His appearing. Rev. 11:18 shows it is time to judge the dead and reward the saints at the 7th trumpet. Luke 14:14 shows we wll be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. He must appear for the saints to get salvation. He waits in heaven till time to make His enemies his footstool. He is going to bring the sleeping saints with Him -then is when we shall all be changed. Let no man deceive you - that day (of our gathering) shall not come till > the falling away the man of sin be revealed.
The trumpets don't sound in Rev. 7 but Rev. 8. There is no mention the trumpets in Rev. 7. If Paul was alive at the time of the first rapture, he would have been raptured then. The reward is given to reign over the nations by Rev. 11.18 because Rev. 11.19 is the end of the 7 year Tribulation. Remember, the major points of the Tribulation are from Rev. 7 to 11, and the details John is to preach again from chapters 12 to 19. Just like how Gen. 2 gives the details of Gen. 1.

Salvation does not come at resurrection but when one is born-again. A person who is born-again receives eternal life and "shall never perish" (John 10.28). Once-saved-always-saved. Eternal life is not just eternal assured blessings, but also an ability to have a saving relationship with Jesus now!

Jesus returns not will all the saints just a fraction who overcometh, for notice that not all Christians overcometh in Rev. 2 & 3. Not all Christians fit the three groups mentioned in Rev. 20.4.

Jesus does not return in Person until after the Antichrist is revealed.

Nothing about till some of the saints have been pre-trib raptured.
Daniel 11 shows that those that understand will instruct many
Does your pre-trib rapture idea - have a coming of Jesus Christ first? Do the dead of the just rise first?
Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10 are conditional statements for the first rapture. Only if you keep the word of His patience, are watchful and prayerful will you be raptured at the first trumpet.

Don't confuse the rapture with when Jesus returns. He does not return at the same moment of rapture. He returns after the first rapture, after the Temple is built, after the Two Witnesses are killed, after the 7th trumpet general rapture and resurrection and after the Great Tribulation. Parousia lasts 7 years. First Jesus meets the overcomers at the throne in 3rd heaven, then He comes on the cloud then through the cloud to meet the saints in the air at the last trumpet then 2 years later He steps down on the mount of olives, returning with the overcomers. Parousia is a process not an instant.

At the last trumpet the dead rise first. And those who are alive and left are raptured with them. Why this apparent unnecessary repetition? Obviously, those alive are left. Because those who are left are left after those who were "taken" (Matt. 24.40-42) at the first rapture.

So don't confuse the coming in Person with the timings of the raptures or other events of the Tribulation. First Jesus comes for His saints (rapturing all believers) then He comes with His overcomer saints (the select few) to reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26) for 1000 years.

ek - out from within
It is not a keeping through but a keep out of. The only way God can promise to keep one from being martyred is by rapturing them, because in the Tribulation Christians will be martyred which is unavoidable.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know...

Rev. is loaded with verses as to - till I come.
hold fast till I come, overcome, patience.
/Even to the church of Phildelphia< 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

%It doesn't say- pray for a pretrib rapture.
The Roman Church will be destroyed (Rev. 2.23). Don't pray for a rapture before the Tribulation, for your prayers will fall on deaf ears. Praying for the sake of praying will accomplish nothing. But seek to overcometh then you will be accounted worthy to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3.10). Pray the will of God which is for your to consecrate yourself in the Lord.

The Philadelphia church already was an overcomer church so all they had to do was hold fast to what they have already achieved, otherwise if they would falter they would lose being raptured to the throne in 3rd heaven ahead of the Tribulation. This Philadelphia church age is the Brethren movement of 1828 for they just wanted to be called Chistians and nothing else.