In the Twinkling of an Eye We Will all Be Changed but Not at the Same Time

[John]

ReL vinsight4u @ christianforums.com

We shall all be changed at the last trump, we all put on righteousness at the same time. Those in Rev. 7 are not the small number of saints you try to find pre-trib raptured, they are great tribultion martyrs.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15.52).

This verse does not say everyone is raptured at the same time at the last trumpet. It only says that those "who have died" and those who are living at the time of this last trump will be transformed in the blink of an eye. If you are "alive" and "left" (1 Thess. 4.17) necessarily it would have been because you were not "taken" (Matt. 24.40-42) at the first rapture to come "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff). The Two Witnesses are also raptured at a different time. They are raptured 3.5 days after they are martyred.

These are the martyrs who come out of the Great Tribulation (see Rev. 7.9-17) you claim. There is a weakness to your argument. First, no mention of martyrdom defines them in the passage. Second, the “great multitude, which no man could number” (7.9) must exceed the number of 200 million (“twice ten thousand times ten thousand”) which is the biggest among many numbers cited in the book of Revelation (9.16). Taking today’s population at about 7 billion, there will still be over 4.5 billion souls after one third are killed (Rev.9.16). With a savings ratio of between 1 in 100 and 1 in 300, 45 million to 15 million would be saved. This does not even come close to 200 million. Such a numberless multitude who “come out of the great tribulation” mentioned in the Revelation 7 passage must therefore have reference to those overcoming saints who come out of the great tribulation experienced by all believers throughout the twenty centuries of church history.

Rev. 7.9-17 This section sketches for us this scene in heaven. Who is the great multitude? Though we dare not conclude definitely that this refers to the whole church, we would nevertheless say that it includes the majority of the redeemed of God; that is, it consists of those in the first rapture, plus that great number who are raised from the dead, together with the relatively smaller number of those who yet remain alive on earth and are changed. Here we are not shown how the church is raptured, only an outline description is given of the heavenly scene after the church has been raptured.

Please note that 7.9-17 narrates the period from the rapture (the first rapture) to eternity (the new heaven and the new earth). What is described in 7.15-17 depicts the same scene as is found in 21.3-7.

Note also that 7.9-17 only deals with rapture generally, not exclusively; and neither does it speak exclusively of the scene of eternal blessing. Consequently, we must not conclude that what is given here is indicative of the rapture of the whole church once and for all; for nothing is said as to how this vast multitude got there, it only states that they are there.

The reason why it is placed here between Rev. 6 and Rev. 8 is because Rev. 6 is the past 20 centuries and Rev. 8 begins the Tribulation. Hence, the first rapture according to readiness is placed in between. This is commensurate with Rev. 12 of which there are many similarities. A small group of overcomers are raptured beforehand, represented by the man-child that comes out of the woman-God's eternal will. This group would equate to about 1/7th of believers alive at the time of the first rapture since 1 of the 7 churches was an overcomer church.

These came out of great tribulation. The trumpets sound in Rev. 7. Paul wrote as to how he has a crown laid up - and so do others that love His appearing. Rev. 11:18 shows it is time to judge the dead and reward the saints at the 7th trumpet. Luke 14:14 shows we wll be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. He must appear for the saints to get salvation. He waits in heaven till time to make His enemies his footstool. He is going to bring the sleeping saints with Him -then is when we shall all be changed. Let no man deceive you - that day (of our gathering) shall not come till > the falling away the man of sin be revealed.

The trumpets don't sound in Rev. 7 but Rev. 8. There is no mention the trumpets in Rev. 7. If Paul was alive at the time of the first rapture, he would have been raptured then. The reward is given to reign over the nations by Rev. 11.18 because Rev. 11.19 is the end of the 7 year Tribulation. Remember, the major points of the Tribulation are from Rev. 7 to 11, and the details John is to preach again from chapters 12 to 19. Just like how Gen. 2 gives the details of Gen. 1.

Salvation does not come at resurrection but when one is born-again. A person who is born-again receives eternal life and "shall never perish" (John 10.28). Once-saved-always-saved. Eternal life is not just eternal assured blessings, but also an ability to have a saving relationship with Jesus now!

Jesus returns not will all the saints just a fraction who overcometh, for notice that not all Christians overcometh in Rev. 2 & 3. Not all Christians fit the three groups mentioned in Rev. 20.4.

Jesus does not return in Person until after the Antichrist is revealed.

Nothing about till some of the saints have been pre-trib raptured.
Daniel 11 shows that those that understand will instruct many
Does your pre-trib rapture idea - have a coming of Jesus Christ first? Do the dead of the just rise first?

Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10 are conditional statements for the first rapture. Only if you keep the word of His patience, are watchful and prayerful will you be raptured at the first trumpet.

Don't confuse the rapture with when Jesus returns. He does not return at the same moment of rapture. He returns after the first rapture, after the Temple is built, after the Two Witnesses are killed, after the 7th trumpet general rapture and resurrection and after the Great Tribulation. Parousia lasts 7 years. First Jesus meets the overcomers at the throne in 3rd heaven, then He comes on the cloud then through the cloud to meet the saints in the air at the last trumpet then 2 years later He steps down on the mount of olives, returning with the overcomers. Parousia is a process not an instant.

At the last trumpet the dead rise first. And those who are alive and left are raptured with them. Why this apparent unnecessary repetition? Obviously, those alive are left. Because those who are left are left after those who were "taken" (Matt. 24.40-42) at the first rapture.

So don't confuse the coming in Person with the timings of the raptures or other events of the Tribulation. First Jesus comes for His saints (rapturing all believers) then He comes with His overcomer saints (the select few) to reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26) for 1000 years.

ek - out from within

It is not a keeping through but a keep out of. The only way God can promise to keep one from being martyred is by rapturing them, because in the Tribulation Christians will be martyred which is unavoidable.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know...

Rev. is loaded with verses as to - till I come.
hold fast till I come, overcome, patience.
/Even to the church of Phildelphia< 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

%It doesn't say- pray for a pretrib rapture.

The Roman Church will be destroyed (Rev. 2.23). Don't pray for a rapture before the Tribulation, for your prayers will fall on deaf ears. Praying for the sake of praying will accomplish nothing. But seek to overcometh then you will be accounted worthy to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3.10). Pray the will of God which is for your to consecrate yourself in the Lord.

The Philadelphia church already was an overcomer church so all they had to do was hold fast to what they have already achieved, otherwise if they would falter they would lose being raptured to the throne in 3rd heaven ahead of the Tribulation. This Philadelphia church age is the Brethren movement of 1828 for they just wanted to be called Chistians and nothing else.

[John]

Rev. 15:1 ...seven angels...

Rev. 8 can't exist, till this verse has taken place before John's eyes.

Rev. 8 also can't exist without some plagues to bring forth at the trumpet times. Rev. 15 is the chapter where angels get the plagues.

Rev. 15.1 begins to address the 6 bowls of wrath held by the 7th trumpet in the last 24 months of the Tribulation.

Rev. 15 is long after Rev. 8. Remember, the Seals are the past 20 centuries. The 7th Seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation and the 7th trumpet pours out the 7 bowls of wrath beginning in 15.1. This is God's lock tumbler which great blessing comes upon you if you get it (Rev. 1.3).

Rev. 8.13 says there are 3 more angels to sound, the last 3 trumpets (3 woes). The 7th trumpet (Rev. 11.15-19) or 3rd woe is what the Rev. 15 & 16 are describing in detail.

Rev. 8 contains the first four trumpets, no plagues or bowls of wrath. The first four trumpets, the first half of the Tribulation, only hurt the earth. Whereas people in mass die in the last two trumpets.

Pray on this.

[John]

Rev. 7:2 can't unfold before seven angels make their grand entrance in Rev. 15:1.
Rev. 7:2 can't be written by John, unless he first saw the seven angels come dressed in their sealing attire from Rev. 15.
in linen
with girdles (pockets)

Rev. 7.2 says the earth to be hurt in the 1st four trumpets which are not blown till Rev. 8.7ff after saints are seen at the throne in 3rd heaven (7.9). No human deaths are mentioned yet. All the trumpets are blown except for the 7th trumpet by Rev. 15.1 so 7.2 must occur long before then. Rev. 11.15-19 contain details found in Rev. 15 & 16.

Rev. 7.2 of course is written by John long before Rev. 15 the bowls of wrath at the end of the Tribulation.

John writes about the 7 angels, the first four in Rev. 8 and at the end of Rev. tells of 3 more to come. The 3 more to come are associated with the last 3 trumpets from Rev. 9 to 11 (major points) and chapters 13 to 19 (minor points).

[John]

Rev. 8 is where John clearly tells us what angels have shown up.
the already sounded the trumpets angels

"were" given trumpets

The two witnesses of Rev. 11 are among those who in Rev. 7 - came out of great tribulation.

The first four trumpets in Rev. 8 would be the first half of the 7 year Tribulation. Saints are seen in 3rd heaven at Rev. 7.9 before the Tribulation begins. The last 3 trumpets and angels that blow them follow after Rev. 8.

The Two Witnesses Enoch and Elijah come out of the Tribulation. They were martyred in the Tribulation then resurrected and raptured 3.5 days after they go to rest. R

Rev. 7.14 is not coming out of the Tribulation but out of the past 20 centuries of tribulations called "tribulation the great" since it is such a great number that are saved and not such a great number can be derived from the population during the Tribulation.

[John]

How would John write down a set of angels the first time he sees them?

seven angels

not till later would come the wording of Rev. 8 the seven angels

Here - only seven angels are said as stood.
Now look back; for in Rev. 7- all the angels stood.
John is using Rev. 8 to go back and tell what happened when only the seven angels were there and another angel came.

The 4 angels mentioned in Rev. 7.2 are about to blow their trumpets because the Tribulation is about to commence. But before doing so the first rapture takes place "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) then the trumpets begin (8.7ff).

The "another angel" is Jesus.

[John]

Compare what happens at the end of Rev. 7 and the end of Rev. 15.

There is nothing there similar at all. Compare what happens with Rev. 7.9 and Rev. 12.5. There are many points of comparison.

The multitude mentioned in 7.9-17 and the people represented by the man child in 12.1-11 have many points in common:

(1) According to 7.10 the multitude are saved by the Lamb, and according to 12.11 those included in the man child overcome because of the blood of the Lamb.

(2) Those mentioned in 7.9 stand before the throne; the man child spoken of in 12.5 is raptured to the throne.

(3) Salvation is attributed to God and to the Lamb in 7.10, and in 12.10 salvation is said to come from God and His Christ.

(4) We read in 7.1-8 that the twelve tribes are sealed, and we read in 12.1 that the woman has upon her head a crown of twelve stars. (The crown of twelve stars does not refer to the twelve apostles, for Joseph dreamed of twelve stars and those clearly pointed to the twelve tribes.)

(5) We find in 7.11 that the angels burst out in praises, and we find in 12.10 that a great voice is heard in heaven.

(6) Since the people spoken of in 7.9 stand before the throne of God they must have resurrection bodies, and likewise the man child spoken of in 12.5 must have a resurrection body. The word "delivered" in verse 5 should be explained according to the rule of interpreting visions, not according to the rule of literal interpretation. From the explanation given in Acts 13.33-34, we can readily see that this is resurrection. Without a resurrection body no one can see God, for he will be reckoned as naked (2 Cor. 5.2,3; Ex. 20.26, 28.42). 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of resurrection as a sure fact; 2 Corinthians 5 speaks of the facts about resurrection. Today there is no Christian before the throne; this will be true later in the future. In Revelation 4.6 no one is shown standing on the glassy sea; only by the time of Revelation 15 will there be people standing on it (v.2 mg.). Acts 2.34 explicitly says that David has not ascended to heaven, and 1 Samuel 28.13-14 definitely states that Samuel came up out of the earth. Both indicate that they have not yet been clothed with a resurrection body. The Lord alone is one who descended out of heaven and yet is in heaven (John 3.13). Even Enoch and Elijah, who were taken to heaven, may presently be placed somewhere else, since they probably do not have a transformed body.

(7) In 7.15 we have the words "spread his tabernacle over them", in 12.12 we have the words "O heavens, and ye that dwell in them" which in Greek is "ye that tabernacle in them" (see also John 1.14 where "dwelt" in Greek is actually "tabernacled").

(8) Those mentioned in 7.9 are overcomers, for (a) the white garments are promised to those in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, (b) not to pass through the trial of the Great Tribulation to come is assured to those in Philadelphia who have kept the word of patience, and (c) the palm is always a symbol of victory. The man child spoken of in 12.5 is likewise an overcomer, since he will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

[John]

The two witnesses rise at the same hour as the third woe (earthquake).
The fifth seal shows that all martyrs for Jesus Christ rest, until all come in that re to be killed.
The 6th seal has signs that come at the end of the trib - and men can rise to get thir change.

Job 14;12,14
heavens / no more
tlll my change come

6th seal /heaven departs

God shows His face - means it is time for mercy on Israel. When God hides His face is when Israel is troubled. This time is ending, not starting at the 6th seal.

The Two Witnesses are resurrected before the 3rd woe. Third woe begins at Rev. 11.15. There are 1260 days from April 18, 2016 (1st day of the 4 day inspection of the lamb) to Sept. 30 Feast of Trumpets, 2019 -- the time of the Two Witnesses. Tribulation is 2,520 days from Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015 to Tisha B'Av Aug. 7, 2022. The Two Witnesses die in the 6th trumpet since the 6th trumpet runs from July 25, 2019 to Aug. 18, 2020.

The 5th seal shows those who were martyred the past 20 centuries are raptured at the first trumpet as they are given new robes so they are raptured with those at the first rapture (Rev. 7.9).

The 6th Seal occurs before the Tribulation starts as none of the Trumpets of the Tribulation are yet blown. The 6th Seal occurs right before the Tribulation starts with 3 events in specific order: 2010 Haiti (2nd most deaths and most deaths per capita) or 2011 Japan earthquakes (5th in magnitude, greatest financial loss); H3 Lunar Eclipse Nov. 3, 2013 (4th since Christ); Tetrad 2014/15 (8th since Christ) and won't happen again till 2582/83. As Joel said in Joel 2.30-31 before the great and terrible day of the Lord these cosmic signs would appear.

So the Tribulation is surrounded by these events in the heavens and earthquakes before the Tribulation starts and after (Matt. 24.29; Rev. 11.19; 16.18).

In the OT they could only see the kingdom (not eternity future) which is the millennial reign (Rev. 20.2-7). They could not see the particulars. So Joel 14.12 is referring the time of the millennial reign and premillennial resurrection. Though of course there is also the resurrection of the damned a thousand years later. As you compress the 1000 years as part of the day of the Lord in Person, the heavens are no more, first emphasized and given a foretaste by the cosmic and other signs before the Tribulation (Rev. 6.12-17), and in the heavens and earthquake at the end of the Tribulation (Matt. 24.29; Rev. 11.19; 16.18), and then the heaven and earth is gone at the end of the 1000 years (Rev. 21.1). After all this then the New Heaven an New Earth.

God and the Lamb after the 1000 years become the center of the New City and see His face, the face of Jesus the Lamb (Rev. 22.4). This has nothing to do with Israel, but it is eternity future for all the resurrected-saved and those who live outside the New City on the New Earth. Though Israel is remembered through various aspects of the building of the New Jerusalem.

The time of testing begins with the 6th seal and the first rapture (Rev. 7.9) because when the first rapture takes place Satan knows then his time is short.

[John]

Since all the angels gather together at the time of the great multitude of saints have shown up -then nobody was any longer holding back the winds for Rev. 7:1.

Rev 7:2 refers to "another" angel ascending from the east.
So we have to insert the story of the first angel and others that also came from the east, and that is chapter 15.

Rev/ 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven...seven angels...having the seven last plagues...

% notice these plagues will come as the last set
and they are not stated as in vials

Rev. 15:5 And after that I looked...
John is beginning a new vision, as a new sequence of events start to unfold.

15:6 And the seven angels...in linen..having...seven plagues.

See how chapter 15 is where this set takes on the title of "the seven angels"?
John has seen them now with more plagues and they will get the vials full.
Where do they get the vials?
from one of the four beasts

That is in the place of where John has been going in the seal times to watch the various riders (rulers).
Now, coming from the east /Babylon - the place of the riders/ the seven angels will become the "we" angels of Rev. 7 and set out to seal people and then report to God/John hears the numbers sealed. Now, they would be standing before God in Rev. 7 as the already changed to the seven angels set.

In Rev. 7.1 the trumpets haven't been blown yet so the Tribulation hasn't even started yet.

The "another angel" is Jesus.

7.2 "Another angel"—Who is this angel? The word "angel" here is "messenger" in the original Greek. The angels are sometimes called messengers, but so too are men sometimes designated this. In this book, the special designation "another angel" is used several times. The word "another" indicates its difference from the rest (8.3, 10.1-3, 18.1). Now in all these places, who else but the Lord Jesus has such majesty and honor? D. M. Panton has remarked that the word "another" is very meaningful for it signifies another class or another kind.

"The Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament is a specific title (Gen. 16.7-14, 22.1-13, 32.24-30; Judges 13.16-18) which is always a reference to the Lord Jesus.

The Lord is here called an "angel"—which is an Old Testament denomination—thus hinting that He will soon return to His Old Testament ground.

The 7 plagues are not the 7 trumpets. The 7th trumpet contains the 7 plagues. These 7 plagues are the vials-bowls.

The plagues in bowl 1 to bowl 6 seem to be quite similar to the plagues in trumpet 1 to trumpet 6; the only difference lies in their intensities. The six bowls re-enact the plagues of the six trumpets, but with much greater severity. Since the seventh trumpet includes all seven bowls, the weight of woe must be tremendously heavy.

15.5 "The temple of the tabernacle" is in heaven, yet it is not permanent since it is described as a tabernacle temple. The tabernacle of Moses was made after the heavenly pattern (Heb. 8.5). After the holy temple was built by Solomon, the tabernacle passed away. So in like manner, when in eternity the Lamb shall become the temple, even this temple of the tabernacle in heaven will pass away.

The riders of the 4 horses are the past 20 centuries. They are general in nature. Would the Lamb of Judah in Rev. 5 wait 2000 years to begin opening the seals? Of course not. The first rider is Jesus who had a bow and arrow that looks like a cross. He gives Satan a deadly wound by it because the arrow has been shot.

The seals are opened secretly these past 2000 years. But the trumpets of the Tribulation are blown loudly. And the bowls which contain the plagues are larger than cups but poured out silently as if time stands still because so much is happening.