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Thread: Can You Still be Watchful if You Don't know the Exact Date of When Jesus Returns?

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    Default Can You Still be Watchful if You Don't know the Exact Date of When Jesus Returns?

    The first school (pretrib rapture onlyism) lacks scriptural evidences while the second school (posttrib rapture onlyism), though it possesses many proofs, nevertheless has many errors too. What, then, does the Bible actually teach? Let us consider the following observations.

    A. Revelation 3.10 “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the second school of interpretation as well as those of the first. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. The second school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23). Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of” (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones”). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.10a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.

    B. Luke 21.36 also proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experienced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray-to be "taken" (Matt. 24.40-42) and not "left" (1 Thess. 4.14-18). Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the first and second schools of interpretation. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

    C. Other proofs as follows:

    (1) By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come. This only applies if you don't already know when the parousia of Christ begins. Most people would not know when Jesus returns so they are to be watchful and ready without knowing the dates.

    (2) The places to be raptured towards are also different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air” – Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time nor to the same place.

    (3) Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage relates to the first rapture while the second relates to 7th trumpet rapture. Of course if you treat Matt. 24.36 as referring to the end of the world (v.35) and not the start of the Tribulation then disregard (3). But if you don't know when Jesus returns you can still be watchful, thus Mark 13.32 would still apply.

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    Re: Presentist @ christianforums.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist
    But 1 Thessalonians 4:17 seems to imply that all living Christians will be raptured, which would mean there is only one rapture.
    Why would the fact that all living Christians will be raptured imply there is only one rapture? There is only one rapture at the start of the 7th trumpet (1 Thess. 4.17) before the bowls of wrath just as there is only one rapture at the start of the Tribulation "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) according to readiness (3.10, Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36) before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff).

    Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice?

    Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth.

    Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth.

    So one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards with those who are asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist
    Are you saying that there is a rapture before 1 Thessalonians 4:17?
    Of course. 1 Thess. 4.17 is the general rapture and resurrection according to completion at the start of the 7th trumpet before the bowls of wrath are poured near the end of the Tribulation.

    Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 at 7.9 "before the throne" in 3rd heaven occurs before the Tribulation, before the trumpets (8.7ff). It is according to readiness.

    The Seals are the past 20 centuries opened secretly. The Trumpets are the Tribulation blown loudly. And the Bowls of Wrath are poured silently, larger than cups, because so much is happening so fast it as if time stands still.

    The 7th Seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation and the 7th trumpet pours out the 7 bowls of wrath. It's a lock tumbler. Once you unlock the lock Tumbler the book of Revelation will open up to you like never before, and you will encounter great blessings (Rev. 1.3).

    Rev. 12 to 19 give the details of the major points of the Tribulation from chapters 7 to 11 just like how Gen. 2 gives the details of Gen. 1.

    Elementary Dear Watson!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist
    Does 1 Thessalonians mention a rapture that occurs before the one mentioned in 4:17?
    Yes.

    Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice?

    Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left”.

    Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth.

    Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. But he can include himself with those who are asleep if the Tribulation does not occur in his day.

    So one one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation (according to readiness) while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured at the start of the 7th trumpet 24 months before the end of the Tribulation (according to completion).

    It seems to me that the Thessalonians were concerned about not seeing their dead Christian friends and family, and Paul was telling them not to worry. Paul said the dead Christians will be resurrected before the living Christians are translated (raptured).
    That's correct as to the general rapture and resurrection. As to those who preceded who were raptured alive because they kept the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10), were watchful (Matt. 24.40-42) and prayerful (Luke 21.36), they shall escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world to escape all these things that shall come upon the world in the Tribulation. Such is a firstfruits (Rev. 12.5, 14.1-5) that precedes the later harvest (11.15, 15.2-4, 1 Cor. 15.23, 1 Thess. 4.14-18).

    Sadly, though, many do not have faith to believe.

    Why would he say that if there was to be a rapture earlier?
    Because He is comforting those who would go to sleep. In no way does this take away from the fact as in all things in life there are advanced parties or harbingers in every sphere.

    I am not attacking you. I have just studied the various prophecy views of the Church and have not heard that too much.

    Was that view common in the Church sometime in the past?
    I have a list of over 100 writers defending partial rapture from most centuries in the past so though it is never the popular view as you would expect for the "little flock" (Luke 12.32) it was the correct view as proven here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist
    Thanks. I found and read Watchman Nee's defense of two raptures. He states that there will be mature Christians that get to be raptured before the Tribulation and the rest are raptured after the Tribulation.

    But I think you have to admit that the vast majority of Greek scholars would say that these passages refer to only one Rapture (though they could be wrong)...

    1 Corinthians 15:23 ~ But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ~ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ~ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    1 Thess 4.15-17 is one rapture, the one at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15.50-52 doesn't reference the same time, only that by the last trumpet we shall all be changed. We shall all die but not at the same time. We shall all be resurrected but not at the same time. There is a firstfruits (Rev. 12.5, 14.1-5) and a later harvest (vv.14-16). We see saints "before the throne" (7.9) in 3rd heaven before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff). 1 Cor. 15.23 pertains to meeting the saints in the air at the last trumpet, also just one rapture.

    "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt. 24.40-42).

    Both the taken and the left are saved. Why? There is the possibility of being taken or left depending on if you watch. But this is not an any watching but a watching afforded to believers since it addresses to them "your Lord." If this reward is given by referring to those at the end of the Tribulation who watch, it wouldn't make much sense because no believers are left. All believers are to be raptured so all believers are taken. So it must refer to the rapture before the Tribulation. Jesus comes to take like a thief in the night to breaks into the home to steal the best first. It makes perfect sense that the believers left are those who pass through the Tribulation to be raptured at the last trumpet. There is simply now way to interpret this verse other than according to partial rapture.

    "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36). These things that shall come to pass are in the Tribulation. Whereas the "cares of this life" (v.34) are happening now. Since God can't promise you will not die in the Tribulation if you enter it, to be worthy to escape the Tribulation can only occur if you are taken out of the world by being raptured. Again, there is no way to interpret this verse other than according to partial rapture. However difficult this is for your flesh to accept you must let your flesh die on the cross with Christ and come out of your comfort zone and passivity instilled by popular teachers and the status quo. The gate is small and the path narrow.

    If "thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10). Do all Christians do this? No. Such a promise can not be made to those in the Tribulation, because even though there could be spiritual Christians in the Tribulation (they become spiritual after being unspiritual at the time of the first rapture) who are keeping the word of His patience, they may not escape being martyred. The only way God can make this promise to be kept from the hour of trial is by being taken up before the Tribulation starts. There is no other way to view this text.

    If these passages do not refer to one Rapture, as most Greek scholars believe, what makes you sure they refer to two?
    Indeed, these verses do refer to one rapture, but why would that prevent the rapture before the Tribulation? In fact, 1 Thess. 4.17 supports a rapture before the Tribulation by say before the general rapture and resurrection there were those who preceded because they were taken and not left.

    Most scholars suffer from "single glory syndrome"-rapture can only occur once. It's an assumption that has no basis. Think about it. Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life. If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born. Others object that rapture is part of redemption, that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works. I Corinthians 15.23, say some, only mentions “they that are Christ’s” and that nothing is said about works. But let us be aware that this verse does not speak of rapture, it speaks of resurrection. There is a distinction made in the Bible between wheat and tares, some say, but no difference made between wheat and wheat; consequently, all wheat must be raptured. In reply, it should be noted that the times of ripening for wheat are not the same. Thus there are the firstfruits and the later harvest. Therefore, there actually no basis for single glory syndrome. It is just an assumption-a big mistaken assumption. You know what they say about those who assume.

    It would seem the argument (which I do not agree with) that would say the passages do not have to refer to one Rapture could also be used to say the passages do not have to refer to two either. Why not say there have been many Raptures?
    Based on the verses discussed herein we see certainly the rapture before and near the end of the Tribulation. So that's grounds for two raptures. The argument is not because these verses speak of one rapture at the end of the Tribulation that therefore there must be a rapture before the Tribulation. Not at all. It is because there is evidence for a rapture before and after we know there is at least two raptures. Are there more raptures? Certainly there is the rapture of martyred believers during the Tribulation to be resurrected 3.5 days after they go to rest like the Two Witnesses. And we can't rule out any gleaning raptures from the rapture and resurrection at the start of the last trumpet to the when Jesus steps down on the mount of olives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist
    According to your argument, you also cannot rule out the possibility of many other raptures from Jesus day until now.
    You can rule out all rapture claims before the Tribulation period since Acts 2.34 says no man is in heaven yet not even David a man after God's own heart. Pretty clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist
    That would only rule out a rapture up until the time Acts 2:34 was written. According to your view, I do not see how you could rule out any number of raptures from that time till now.

    Personally, I think there is only one Rapture when all Christians, whether living or dead, are united with Jesus.
    Acts is about the Church age so it is not a leap of faith to think that what Peter is saying only would apply up to that moment he spoke. There have not been people in heaven these past 2000 years. That would be unfair to the rest of the elect.

    What matters is in the above posts is the verses were given and explanation showing a first rapture according to readiness and a last trumpet rapture and resurrection according to completion.

    I have heard nothing from you to thwart these points. So the difference between you and me is I give into the evidence, and you remain detached and vague about what is actually and very specifically said, because you feel safer in a popular view, albeit a popular viewa that disagree with other popular views.

    It's better to give into the evidence instead of forming opinions you have no basis for. It is better to go with what the word of God says and not look for public opinion on the matter or even appeal to the Church fathers. Call no man your father the Bible says.

    The word of God is inerrant and will give you the answer if you came to God with an honest heart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist
    What is the determining factor whether or not a Christian is raptured at the first rapture?

    Can you know for sure if you will be included in the first rapture?
    What did those verses say? You need to be watchful, prayerful and keep the word of His patience. You should include also all that is said in Matthew 5-7. Everything is on the table. Have you overcometh? You're a temple of God and have you moved in that direction sufficient to warrant God rapturing you at the first rapture? If not you will pass through the time of testing, perhaps martyred, perhaps not, but still have time to overcometh before the final decision is rendered at the conclusion of the last trumpet rapture and resurrection when you come before the Judgment Seat.

    I suppose it is possible in very rare exceptions to know you will be included, but for most of us, we don't know and just leave it up to God as we strive to "overcometh" as mentioned 7 times in Rev. 2 & 3. The problem is a person might know he was included in the first rapture if the Tribulation started today, but who is to say what will happen if the Lord is delayed in His coming (Matt. 25.1-13).

    You don't want to be a pretrib or posttrib rapture onlyists because when a couple million have vanished Sept. 14, 2015 on the Feast of Trumpets and you were not included then you would accuse them day and night (Rev. 12.10) of being a fake rapture or some such thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist View Post
    Why will it bother pretribbers or posttribber so? You state that even you do not expect to be raptured before the Tribulation. So we will all miss the first rapture together. (That is unless you are one of the rare exceptions.)
    Since the pretribber onlyist thinks he would be raptured before the Tribulation and he sees a couple million have vanished, naturally he will assume it was a fake rapture, not of God, but Satan's counterfeit. Thus, in reality, he would be accusing the saints day and night (Rev. 12.10). The fact that he would do this, showing forth his fruit, shows that he was never born-again.

    Similarly, the posttrib rapture onlyist will accuse them because he believes there is no first rapture before the Tribulation. As the accuser of the brethren, he is showing he is not members of the body of Christ.

    But a Christian, if he finds himself in the Tribulation will simply realize he was not yet ready to be received so this is why he was not included in the first rapture. That naturally flows.

    I never said that I don't expect to be raptured before the Tribulation. You do realize you sinned bearing false witness? I hope to be raptured before the Tribulation just as Paul was hoping for the same. That is far different than saying I don't expect to be.

    When I mentioned "very rare exceptions," we were discussing whether there was some who knew they would be raptured beforehand. Being raptured beforehand is not dependent on knowing you will be. Do you see how you erred? A person can be ready and not realize he is ready which is still a humble position to take since he is not focused on self but has his eye on Christ at all times.

    The problem you face is you don't believe in partial rapture, so what are you going to do when you are in the Tribulation? Will you accuse those brethren taken up ahead of time? Will you even recognize you are in the Tribulation then? Who is to say you will refuse the mark of the beast or even know what it is, since you will deny the Tribulation is happening when it is going on?

    You can see your view has big problems I for one don't know how to resolve on your behalf.

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