When Did Jesus Say He Would Return?

[EyeStallion]

I considered the partial rapture once before but somewhat dismissed it. You have inspired me to search some more. (rolling up sleeves)

As for the 2,520th day on Tisha B'Av, I've never even considered this at all. I'm not as convinced that the 2,520th day has to be so special as you seem to be, but knowing what I know about God.....He is pretty orderly about dates, so He probably DOES care! LOL I mean-look at May 14, 1948 for example. I have a lot of reading and pondering to do. Admittedly, the Pre-Wrath view has been my latest flavor, but I never shut my mind to discussions, especially when conducted intelligently and in love. Thanks again for stimulating thought and .......prayer! :)

[Churchwork]

There is no denying there are 2,520 days from Feast of Trumpets to Tisha B'Av every 7 out of 19 years and in the other years there are 2,550 days from Feast of Trumpets to Day Atonement. That's exact! Therefore, this must be exactly what the final seven is all about like all the previous sevens.

Ezekiel's prophecy on his side for 390 days and 40 on the other take us to exactly May, 1948. That was wild! Holy jump'in gee wilikers batman!

And what about the Jubilees that take us to 2015 as the 120th Jubilee of 6000 years? That's amazing!

For the first rapture are these not conditional statements? "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt. 24.42). If you are not watchful what happens? You will not be "taken" but "left" to enter the Tribulation (vv.40-41).

What's the condition in Luke 21.36? "Watch ye therefore, and pray always..." For what purpose? "...that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass [the Tribulation], and to stand before the Son of man." Death is no blessing, and God can't promise a Christian who enters the Tribulation will not be martyred no matter how spiritual they are. Enoch and Elijah, the Two Witnesses, were so spiritual God raptured them then they return to die as the Two Witnesses.

What's the condition in Rev. 3.10? If "thou didst keep the word of my patience..." what happens? "...I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." This is the not just tribulation one experiences in the world, but what is going to come upon the whole world and the time or hour of the Tribulation itself.

Those first raptured meet the Lord "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven before the first trumpet (8.7) of the Tribulation is blown. Perhaps they are used additionally to help Michael fight Satan out of 2nd heaven to bring him down to earth. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in [2nd] heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev. 12.7-9).

When does everyone else get raptured and resurrected? That's the pre-wrath you are talking about in Rev. 11.15 at the start of the 7th trumpet which contains the bowls of wrath that are poured. "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become he kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11.15). They meet the Lord in the air at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15.23, 50-52; 1 Thess. 4.14-18).

[EyeStallion]

No doubt, those two verses you cited in Luke 21 and Rev 3 have been huge in my mind for many years. In fact, just about every morning as I head out to work, I pray the Luke 21:36 verse to the LORD. I definitely am waiting, seeking, and praying.

But.....

For some reason, the two rapture theory has not stuck with me I guess because I haven't been able to sort it all out completely, as you have. (There is still hope though....lol)

My thinking has been this, and please tell me where you think I'm missing the mark:
1. I see a rapture clearly in Rev 7, which happens right after Seal 6. It says in Rev 6, now God's WRATH has begun after this seal, before the 7 trumpets. Of course, we (believers) are not appointed onto God's wrath, so in my mind, ALL believers (even those not watching and praying) are NOT appointed onto God's wrath (trumpets and bowls). Thus, I see all believers who are alive departing BEFORE the wrath of God, which begins after seal 6.

Before Seal 6, it was I guess you could say, Satan's wrath on planet Earth being displayed, and thus, all men, including believers, are included and affected by this. (As it has been since Christ's time on Earth.)

One more point for now still fuzzy to me is that you seem to think the last trumpet has to be the 7th trumpet according to Revelation. I'm no so sure about this. My wife did a study on this and she told me the last trumpet pertains to the Festival of Rosh Hashanah. Something like this.

I'm all ears bro. Thanks for your patience.
ES

[Churchwork]

1. I see a rapture clearly in Rev 7, which happens right after Seal 6. It says in Rev 6, now God's WRATH has begun after this seal, before the 7 trumpets. Of course, we (believers) are not appointed onto God's wrath, so in my mind, ALL believers (even those not watching and praying) are NOT appointed onto God's wrath (trumpets and bowls). Thus, I see all believers who are alive departing BEFORE the wrath of God, which begins after seal 6.

You are right wrath begins from Satan at the start of the Tribulation but it is a light wrath. The Bowls of Wrath are really the portion we avoid because the first four trumpets are the first half of the Tribulation which only hurt the earth not people (the one exception is the Vatican gets nuked (Rev. 8.8,10-11, 17.16). The bowls are contained in the 7th trumpet as the 7th trumpet is contained with the 7th seal. That's why I see Rev. 11.15, saints in heaven, before the bowls are poured for the general rapture and resurrection at the start of the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15.23, 50-52; 1 Thess. 4.14-18). The bowls, therefore, are the heavy wrath.

Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so time wise, rapture occurs near the end or after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. One group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards or in a pre-wrath rapture. I favor the pre-wrath before the bowls are poured.

One more point for now still fuzzy to me is that you seem to think the last trumpet has to be the 7th trumpet according to Revelation. I'm no so sure about this. My wife did a study on this and she told me the last trumpet pertains to the Festival of Rosh Hashanah. Something like this.

I would be happy to read that study.

1 Corinthians 15.50-52. Whether dead or living, all will be raptured. Yet, again, it presents the fact of rapture without specifying a time sequence that would indicate a pre-tribulation rapture. On the contrary, it can be used to prove a pre-wrath or post-tribulation rapture. “At the last trump” is a descriptive phrase that is equal to the seventh trumpet cited in Revelation 11.15. Some people advance the theory that according to Roman custom the trumpets are sounded three times. But the Holy Spirit follows no Roman law.

1 Corinthians 15.50-55; 1 Thessalonians 4.16-17. The first passage dwells on resurrection and change; the second deals with resurrection and rapture. These two are parallel passages. All students of the Bible agree that the events in both passages happen at the same time. Is there any intimation as to the actual time for these events? Indeed, there is. “At the last trump” indicates that the time must be after the Tribulation or pre-wrath. The first school of interpretation insists that the blowing of the last trumpet occurs before the Tribulation, but its adherents have not a single Scripture verse to support their view. The last trumpet is sounded after the Tribulation or pre-wrath; it is the last of the seven trumpets mentioned in the book of Revelation. How absurd it would be if after the last trumpet had been sounded there would still remain seven more trumpets to be heard! It would be like having had the last son born, only to be followed by seven more sons. Someone contends that the “trump” here is the trump of the church, not that of the Tribulation. Where, then, is there recorded in the Scriptures anything said about the first trump of the church? Still others say that Paul merely borrows from the Roman military custom, that as soon as the last trumpet is blown the entire army marches away. Yet the Scriptures have not adopted this Roman military practice. This “trump” is the trump of God, not of the church. Without a doubt it is the last of the seven trumpets cited in the book of Revelation. Furthermore, according to Revelation 10.7, at the sounding of the seventh trumpet the mystery of God is finished - which mystery is the church.

If we accept these ideas we would have to accept the general rapture and resurrection according to completion takes place pre-wrath, that is, before the Bowls of Wrath at the start of the 7th trumpet, and the rapture before the Tribulation is according to readiness of just those Christians who are watchful, prayerful and keep the word of His patience. I also include in the first rapture martyrs from the past 20 centuries because of what is said in the 5th seal.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled" (Rev. 6.9-11).

I see white robes given to the martyrs the past 20 centuries as clothed with new bodies to come before the Lord in heaven. And they are told to wait a little longer till the rest of the brethren who will be martyred during the Tribulation is fulfilled. Since the Two Witnessees will be raptured 3.5 days after they go to rest, I think it is fair to say martyrs during the Tribulation will also be resurrected and raptured during the Tribulation 3.5 days after they go to rest.