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Thread: Deists are Shallow and Horrible Misreaders

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    Romans 6.23 was speaking about humans not angels
    I have been given 2 infraction penalty points by you so far for daring to correct you and typically as here you accuse me without legitimate evidence for one penalty, and for the other penalty you say I wandered in to a forbidden area that non-believers may not venture. I had no idea I was restricted to certain areas but by your feeble response to me here I assume I am permitted to post in this area. I am awaiting confirmation of what areas you say I am not allowed to respond?

    Now back to your incorrect answer regarding Romans 6:23.

    . . . . For the payoff of sin is death, . . . . (Rom. 6:23) NET story book

    Could you point out for us readers where (apart from your imagination) it states this specifically does not refer to ALL who sin or disobey?

  2. #12
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    You got an infraction for posting in Christian forum sections since obviously you are not a Christian and for repeatedly avoiding the explanation, however much you don't like it. I know this because I had to repeat myself that which you avoided as the answer. The board etiquette (read it!) of the forums says don't post in the Christian forum categories which are obvious: "Deeper Christian Life" and "Redemptive Design". I would rather not post as part of the header to these 2 forum categories by saying "Christians Only" or "Christians and Non-Christians" for the "Welcome!" section, since I don't want to have to treat you like a baby.

    Again, I am repeating myself and you are repeating yourself avoiding the answer given. Since Rom. 6.23 is speaking to humans only and because only humans are in the flesh, then it stands to reason the wages of sin is physical death and of course, even the fallen angels receive along with other unregenerates such as yourself the second death which is Hell. Alas, I am repeating myself, and you keep avoiding the answer, and are well deserving of another infraction for the same belligerency and evasiveness.

    Whether physical flesh or second death which is Hell the result is the same - second death for those who are unsaved such as yourself. When a person sins they don't automatically die in the flesh, but they die sooner than they would have otherwise all else being equal.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Composer
    1. The legitimate evidence any so called ' holy book ' is the words of a god given to man, remains a constant zero!

    2. A trinitarian) The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:

    "It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27)

    Or more recently:

    "In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament". (28)

    27. "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180
    28. A & R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980

    &

    Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. Paul must be understood within his Jewish contexts. (p. 160)

    In no way is Paul, still a good Jew (although a Christian one), assuming that Jesus was somehow a divine god second only to YHWH. Yes, Jesus was exalted and had the title “Lord” conferred on him by God. But Jesus was a man who, in Jewish context, had become the Messiah. He was still distinct and inferior to YHWH. When John wrote his almost-Gnostic Gospel almost a half-century later, his use of the “Word” as a pre-existent form is used within Jewish context as well—the same context he used for words like glory, spirit, divine wisdom, and others. “When Paul and John spoke about Jesus as though he had some kind of pre-existent life, they were not suggesting that he was a second divine ‘person’ in the later Trinitarian sense. They were indicating that Jesus had transcended temporal and individual modes of existence. Because the ‘power’ and ‘wisdom’ that he represented were activities that derived from God, he had in some way expressed ‘what there was from the beginning.’”35

    The Jews were absolute monotheists. So was Paul. The Jewish Messiah is not a divine figure. The Messiah would be an ordinary human being that would do privileged “God-things.” The Son of God was a simple way to express the closeness of the Messiah’s actions to the will and power of God. Only the gods of the pagans had “sons” or offspring. “It should be noted that Paul never called Jesus ‘God.’ He called him the ‘Son of God’ in its Jewish sense. He certainly did not believe that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself; he had simply possessed God’s ‘powers’ and ‘spirit,’ which manifested God’s activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence.”36

    Also it needs to be kept in mind, although I mentioned it earlier, Jesus never claimed that his divine powers were his alone or special to him. On many occasions he promised his followers that if they had faith they could exercise these same powers. “By faith, of course, he did not mean adopting the correct theology but cultivating an inner attitude of surrender and openness to God.”37 . . . . (p. 161)

    35 Armstrong, History of God, p. 89.
    36 Armstrong, History of God, p. 83.
    37 Armstrong, History of God, p. 82.

    . . . . That’s why Jesus could say repeatedly, “Greater things than I do will you do.” (p. 162) - (Composer adds: John 14:12 KJV)

    (Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)
    "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2.13).

    "This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to all of you who share the same precious faith we have, faith given to us by Jesus Christ, our God and Savior, who makes us right with God" (2 Pet. 1.1).

    "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him" (Col. 1.16).

    When Paul prayed, he prayed to the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit showing the Trinitarian actions of the Godhead.

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