Atheist.net Full of Erroneous Thinking

[Parture]

By your analysis of infinite regresson everthing already happened before any time occurred. Your concept of infininty doesn't match any standard formulation.

I am responding to the claim of infinite regress of time so when atheists make this claim I can easily come back and say according to your theory you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. This is a standard formulation.

If you want to argue instead that there was no time before time, this is whom we call God, the uncreated Creator who is timeless and spaceless.

Your point is that evidence from within our space-time universe is evidence for the non-space-time outside our universe.
You are positing new physics.

Absolutely, just as God says in Rom. 1.20 space-time is evidence of non-space-time, for this is whom we call the uncreated Creator who has a mind which is needed to create a mind. Your timeless nothing can't cause anything because it doesn't exist. Nothing always comes from nothing. You want things to come into being without a cause, but you betray yourself with your own words when you use words that imply causation. Funny. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

Your point is that physics from within our space-time universe applies to the non-space-time outside out universe.
That still doesn't work.

I am not saying that. God is spaceless and timeless though God can't bring anything into being without causing it. The same would be true of your timeless spaceless nothing, but it couldn't even do that because it doesn't exist. There is no non-space-time apart from God Himself who is spaceless and timeless, since a mind trumps your mindless spaceless timelessness. Have you thought that you project yourself onto this idol of yours? So you are a dullard instead of having the vibrant life of a Christian. The difference between your spaceless timelessness compared to God being spaceless and timeless is yours is non existent because it is mindless.

Your idea that the 1st law of thermodynamics works outside of time and space is not part of current science theory.
If you are a physicist you are being laughed at by every other physicist in the world.
If you are not a physicist you are being laughed at by every physicist in the world.

Current scientific theory agrees the 1st law of thermodynamics applies if you want to include a spaceless timelessness that itself has no energy or power so it doesn't change anything. Physicists are laughing at you and they don't believe in spaceless timelessness apart from God Himself.

I constantly observe the lesser producing the greater. Are you referring to complexity, quantity, size, etc. in this proven principle?

I am referring to that which is lesser can't produce the greater in all things. The universe can't create God, but God create the universe. The universe can't create a hadron collider but man can. The universe can't create a single celled replicating organism but God can. Bouncing particles alone can't create my self-consciousness, but Go can.

So now you claim that god talks to you directly. How do you convince others that the voice you hear is god's and that god reveals knowledge to you other than what is found in the bible?

God talks by His Holy Spirit to our spirit intuitively, through our conscience and communion with Him. When we pray to God this is our communication with Him which reaches intuitively into our spirit to His Spirit in our spirit. Praise the Lord! You communicate with the evil spirit in your innerman; he guides you in all things to Hell. When a person is born-again, the Holy Spirit removes the evil spirit in you so you can have God's life.

Prove all things. There is the testimony of the Spirit in our spirit, there is the word of God and the Holy Spirit that makes the cross effective, and there is agreement among members of the body of Christ. It is very powerful multiple corroboration so we can be sure!

"A still small voice" (1 Kings 19.12).

"And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting" (Acts 11.12).

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" (John 4.24).

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit" (Rom. 8.5).

"It is the Spirit that beareth witness" (1 John 5.6).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Rev. 2.7).

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet" (Rev. 1.10).

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law" (Gal. 5.18).

"howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries" (1 Cor. 14.2).

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him" (2 Cor. 11.4).

"But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6.17).

Nature is evidence, analysis of evidence is proof. You have tried to wrap your analysis inside scientific jargon, but this attempt fails because you do not understand the science. You would do better to prove god with scripture and leave science to those who have read a science book. You won't convert anyone but you won't embarrass yourself as much either.

There is no science that exists that claims something comes from nothing, no evidence for such a thing, so you are delusional. That which doesn't exist can't cause anything. It doesn't exist! The more scientists study the universe the more they say there must be the "transcendent causal agent" otherwise know know as God. The issue for you should not be if God exists but who God is.

Lots of people have come to Christ because they gave into the fact scientifically something can't come from nothing nor always have existed, because they realize they would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. And because they can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs.

What you are practicing s not science but "profane vain babblings, and oppositions of science so falsely called" (1 Tim. 6.20). You're a quak.

You're embarrassing yourself. Tealize Stephen Hawking disagrees with you since he says the singularity or point at the end of a badminton shoot needs a cause.

God didn't say don't observe nature to prove His existence, but observe it, i.e. it's vast beauty and complexity and always abides in cause and effect for which we can render some conclusions from.

[Mystermenace]

This is a standard formulation.

Absolutely, just as God says in Rom. 1.20 space-time is evidence of non-space-time,

Current scientific theory agrees the 1st law of thermodynamics applies if you want to include a spaceless timelessness that itself has no energy or power so it doesn't change anything.

I am referring to that which is lesser can't produce the greater in all things.

There is no science that exists that claims something comes from nothing,
The more scientists study the universe the more they say there must be the "transcendent causal agent" otherwise know know as God.

Tealize Stephen Hawking disagrees with you since he says the singularity or point at the end of a badminton shoot needs a cause.

When you combine religion and science, the end result is not science.

Using science words makes your religion sound like a hodge-podge of pseudoscience and new age justification.

[Parture]

When you combine religion and science, the end result is not science.

Using science words makes your religion sound like a hodge-podge of pseudoscience and new age justification.

Religion agrees with science since God is proven to exist. God uses science in His word and implores you to get rid of your pseudo-science: science so falsely called. This is your own new age babble.

Since nature can't start up from nothing nor always have existed, therefore it needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call the uncreated Creator.

You lose out in life.

[Mystermenace]

...science...proven...nature...existed...cause...t ime and space...

When you use these words in a religious context they do not have the same meaning as when used in a scientific context.
Therefore, your arguments may make you comfortable within your religion, but when you export your arguments outside your religion and into the world of science they become nonsensical.

You lose out in reality.

[Parture]

Since science wouldn't exist without religion (as proven in this thread) to try to practice science outside of religion is vanity and a religion unto itself, thus contradicting yourself. What you are trying to practice is pseudo-science, not reality at all. And there is no need to export anything as science is contained within religion. To take science out of religion is possible, but only if you want to do pseudo-science. Obviously, scientists who are Christians, even other theists would agree.

You lose out in reality.

[Mystermenace]

Since science wouldn't exist without religion (as proven in this thread)

This was never proven in this thread. Go infract yourself.

to try to practice science outside of religion is vanity and a religion unto itself, thus contradicting yourself. What you are trying to practice is pseudo-science, not reality at all. And there is no need to export anything as science is contained within religion. To take science out of religion is possible, but only if you want to do pseudo-science. Obviously, scientists who are Christians, even other theists would agree.

This has not been shown to be obvious. Go infract yourself.

You lose out in reality.

This is a direct copy of my statement. Go infract yourself.

As I have stated, you need to specify the definitions of science that your religion uses. The common definitions don't apply.
Imagine we are the only two engaged in this debate. Your gibberish is a waste of time because I ignore it, it's not relevant.

We cannot debate because you do not speak to my rebuttals. Each argument in the 4 step argument is old and was long ago discredited. If you don't have enough respect for your god to understand your own arguments, or to put forth the effort to develop and present new strong arguments, no one else will either.

[Parture]

This was never proven in this thread. Go infract yourself.

This was proven by observing nature which you did not try to refute in the 4 Step Proof for God. Your avoiding is worthy of an infraction.

This has not been shown to be obvious. Go infract yourself.

Self-declaration is worthy of another infraction.

This is a direct copy of my statement. Go infract yourself.

This is not subject to infractions.

As I have stated, you need to specify the definitions of science that your religion uses. The common definitions don't apply.
Imagine we are the only two engaged in this debate. Your gibberish is a waste of time because I ignore it, it's not relevant.

Again, self-asserting and false accusation, for you don't back your claim.

We cannot debate because you do not speak to my rebuttals. Each argument in the 4 step argument is old and was long ago discredited. If you don't have enough respect for your god to understand your own arguments, or to put forth the effort to develop and present new strong arguments, no one else will either.

There is nothing to rebut when you just assert your claim without trying to defend it. Boring. You are a dullard.

Don't think God's proof of Himself changes over time. It is the same powerful proof from the beginning. You can't improve on what is perfect.

It would seem quite disingenuous to want another proof while the proof given is not only the best one, but unchallenged by you.

[Spacedog]

if infinite regress were true, we would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

Yet you fail to give a reason why this is impossible. Why can I not have already happened before?

This fact alone proves nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space.

A cause cannot not exist without time

this is whom we call the uncreated Creator or God. There is no infinite regress outside of time. It is simply the uncreated Creator.

Overall all I'm agnostic to the principle of infinite creator. My brain tells me there needs to be something infinite, whether it's right in thinking that or not I can't say. What I'm atheist to is the idea that the creator is a conscious being, or that we could claim to know the nature of this being.

There is no multiple reality.

Please provide evidence to support this statement

We have proven the existence of the uncreated Creator so that's it.

No the existence of a creator is proven in your mind, there are billions of humans, most physicists being in this group, who do not feel it is proven at all.

If you have little understanding then I trust you won't make a decision for atheism. Even if there was multiple realities they all exhibit cause and effect so you should have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

I will refer you back to the start of this reply as to your opinion that infinite regress is impossible.
I am atheist to the fictional characters people have applied to infinite creators, not to infinite creators themselves. Also my definition of atheism does not mean I totally rule out the possibility of say, Allah, I just find it very unlikely.

True we can only go with the evidence, but if it were true there was no such thing as cause and effect then you would never have come into being and would not exist.

I have no reason to disagree with this, but I also have no reason to assume my birth can be compared to the birth of existence.

All we can do is go with the evidence and the evidence is we see trillions and trillions of cause and effects in nature, which is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is evidence that cause and effect happens not that it is the only thing which can happen.

infinite regress is impossible

I await your reply as to why it is impossible

something can't come from nothing.

Again you have no way of knowing this

You're confusing dark matter and empty space with that which does not exist.

We are moving into very speculative physics here but it is still worth discussing to prove that an infinite creator doesn't have to be your god. You are correct empty space may not actually exist at all. In fact this is obvious because because it is nothingness, and nothingness does not exist, therefore we can't include nothingness in our arguments. What we see as nothingness in our universe, i.e. the vacuum of space, is not nothingness at all. It is filled by dark or anti-matter.
My point here is that there's no reason to believe that nothingness is a thing at all, it's name even means something which is non-existent. It is possible that the infinity we are looking for could be simply the universe itself (I don't mean just the one we know, full of galaxies and stars etc but everything our little universe is contained in (whatever that may be)). The nothingness beyond existence may not be a factor at all because existence itself, at it's most basic level, could be infinite. So the idea we have is a sort of infinite breeding ground of universes. There's no need to conjure up fictional characters in order to explain the infinity which we think is required.
As for how this 'breeding ground' might create a new universe, physics is starting to find answers and if you have any real interest in this you should read into dark matter theories. Seeing as I am not a physicist myself I won't risk the validity of my argument by wrongly explaining something to you.

Sure we experience true reality. This is a true world and we are real human beings.

Agreed. Perhaps 'true' was a bad word. 'Naked' reality would fit better I think. Our reality is certainly distorted. Regardless, what we see is certainly based entirely on reality.

As was said countless times, infinite regress is impossible, because you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. You must deal with this point if you want to talk about it.

I have dealt with it. The issue is that you have yet to give a reason why me having existed more than once is impossible.

Now that we know God exists

We have not established any such thing. We have established that an infinite creator may exist and that there is no reason to believe it is the god you are imagining.

we are free to find out where He has revealed Himself.

This should be fun

God acknowledges Himself. Jesus does that. He also must prove Himself. Jesus does that too, since the original disciples testified to having seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

Where is your evidence for this other than the bible? The bible is not evidence it is a claim. What is your evidence for the claims made by the bible?

Since you can find no naturalistic explanation for this, you convince people to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, Creator and Resurrected.

That's like saying I can find no naturalistic explanation for the events in Harry Potter, therefore we should all believe magic is real.

Put more simply, my naturalistic explanation is that the bibles claims didn't happen. The evidence for them happening is one book written by cultists 100 years after the story they were writing about. Do you believe the Greek books about the gods on Olympus?

The primary source for proof Jesus is God is the Bible. Historians don't throw out a document because the historian is biased. He deals with it and gleans what data he can from it.

Yes as a historian myself I have found the bible very useful for studying Roman life and christian beliefs, but it doesn't prove that supernatural events took place, only that some people claimed they did (which is not uncommon in the ancient world!). There is no evidence to support their claims.

God condescends Himself to us. But it is not entirely true what you said because remember also, the Godhead is a Trinity of 3 Persons. All I can say about that right now is that God is relational in 3 Persons, so the Godhead can't help but create out of the glory that is the Triunity of God.

OK, maybe Christians on the whole don't believe god is as similar to a human as I made out, although past Christians certainly did and so did the writers of the bible. But still, I find it very improbable that an infinite creator would be able to think in a way which allows it to communicate with humans. Such thought processes require a brain (or similar) which has evolved and is based on the laws of space and time. You claim that god is outside of space and time and is infinite.

Don't jump, but compare Jesus. Find out who provides a proof as good as Jesus does in paying for the sins of the world and by the resurrection proof. None can compare.

Jesus and the bible are not proof of a claim they are the claim itself. A claim cannot be evidence for itself.

I would be agnostic right now if the evidence wasn't so compelling. You should be agnostic and not atheist if you didn't need to be so certain. Think how insane you are since we observe trillions and trillions of causes in nature, and no hard evidence something happens all by itself, then to claim otherwise that causation doesn't exist. If causation didn't exist, you wouldn't exist since you would have no cause to your existence.

No you are bias to a belief which brings you security. Any rational person who has read my arguments above will see that you are bias to evidence supporting an infinite creator, and hold on to claims with no evidence with regard to the Christian beliefs, while ignoring the mountain of evidence against them.

You're starting from the position that God does not exist whereas I am starting from the evidence of trillions and trillions of cause and effects and the 1st law of thermodynamics which you violate. You're simply catering to some assumptions that violate reality out of your hostility and independency to your Creator

As I have clearly explained in this reply your arguments are nowhere near as certain as you like to believe

for which I assure you that you will go to Hell for because you don't want to be redeemed back to God, and it is a choice to want to be eternally separated from God. You have nobody to blame but yourself.

I'm terrified. Please provide some evidence for the existence of heaven/hell without simply restating a claim.



As for that last comment stop being so immature and pathetic. You've just proved that you are desperate for any way to get at me due to your weak arguments. That comment was referring to the fact that I had said I wouldn't be drawn into arguing with yet another religious fanatic, but fell into the trap.

[Parture]

Yet you fail to give a reason why this is impossible. Why can I not have already happened before?

I cannot think of a reason why you could not have happened before, since you would have had an eternity to come into being before now. The reason given for why you would have happened already is because you would have had an eternity to do so, if infinite regress were true. Therefore, infinite regress is false.

A cause cannot not exist without time

Since infinite regress is impossible there cannot be a past eternity of time, so therefore, there must be a cause for time outside of time. Your assumption that there can be no cause without time would be a false assumption.

Overall all I'm agnostic to the principle of infinite creator. My brain tells me there needs to be something infinite, whether it's right in thinking that or not I can't say. What I'm atheist to is the idea that the creator is a conscious being, or that we could claim to know the nature of this being.

Your position is untenable since infinite regress as we have seen is impossible, so nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call the uncreated Creator. Since a non-mind can't produce a mind and that which has no conscience or consciousness can't produce a conscience and consciousness, the Creator must be an immaterial mind. Often people give the name to this uncreated the name of God.

Please provide evidence to support this statement

I don't need evidence against multiple realities, but you do since you propose it. But if I were to try, I would say the tv series Fringe is a good example of this being an evil construct. But if God exists, He considers all world ensembles and actualizes the one that is the best of all possible worlds.

Another way to approach this is since the uncreated Creator is proven and Jesus is proven to be God, and there is multiple realities in God's design, then there is none. So "avoid profane vain babblings, and oppositions of science so falsely called" (1 Tim. 6.20).

And even if there were multiple realities, since there is no evidence for it, it's really not too helpful to think in those terms, and it would not change infinite regress.

No the existence of a creator is proven in your mind, there are billions of humans, most physicists being in this group, who do not feel it is proven at all.

Actually most physicists believe a "transcendent cause" exists. Only a fraction deny this. But instead of appealing to authority, why don't you deal with the fact of the matter: If there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

I will refer you back to the start of this reply as to your opinion that infinite regress is impossible.

Thanks for the referral. As was seen it was no opinion, but proven since you would have happened already having had a eternity to do so.

I am atheist to the fictional characters people have applied to infinite creators, not to infinite creators themselves. Also my definition of atheism does not mean I totally rule out the possibility of say, Allah, I just find it very unlikely.

We know Allah can't be God because six centuries later he said Jesus never died on the cross, when that is all the evidence we have for Jesus dying on the cross. And we know Jesus is God because you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs.

I have no reason to disagree with this, but I also have no reason to assume my birth can be compared to the birth of existence.

Why would your birth need to be compared to the birth of existence for God to exist? Since you are partially swayed to the idea the universe would not exist if there was no cause for time, then you wouldn't exist either since you are in the universe.

This is evidence that cause and effect happens not that it is the only thing which can happen.

In fact the trillions and trillions of cause and effects is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, accepted by any court of law. If there is no cause and effect then the universe and you would never have come into being. If you keep holding out that maybe one day you will find something that can disprove cause and effect in some instances, this line of thinking is problematic because let's say there was one last thing you didn't know. Would you still be so arrogant to hold out that you needed to know that last thing to know if cause and effect always apply? Talk about false humility! You would be claiming you need to be God or all-knowing to know if God exists, but that is itself a contradiction, since obviously you are not the uncreated Creator and never will be, so get over yourself. If you were, you could show us what happened at the singularity right now with perfect clarity in all its fine details.

I await your reply as to why it is impossible

Infinite regress is impossible because you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. Why do you ask this question after I have said this so many times already? Why not respond to what I said?

Again you have no way of knowing this

Of course we know this. Nobody has ever found something coming from nothing, and we have trillions and trillions of cause and effects which is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt nature always comes from something. Moreover, that which does not exist can't produce anything. It has no energy and doesn't exist. You're violating the first law of thermodynamics. That's why the Bible says, "Avoid profane vain babblings, and oppositions of science so falsely called" (1 Tim. 6.20).

We are moving into very speculative physics here but it is still worth discussing to prove that an infinite creator doesn't have to be your god. You are correct empty space may not actually exist at all. In fact this is obvious because because it is nothingness, and nothingness does not exist, therefore we can't include nothingness in our arguments. What we see as nothingness in our universe, i.e. the vacuum of space, is not nothingness at all. It is filled by dark or anti-matter. My point here is that there's no reason to believe that nothingness is a thing at all, it's name even means something which is non-existent.

I never said anything about empty space not existing. I said it does exist for it has particles in it I said. We are not talking about dark matter and empty space brewing with particles. They are subject to cause and effect. What we are talking about is that which does not exist can't cause anything (no energy, no existence); ergo, something can't come from nothing. Dark matter is not nothing.

It's probably best before you start worrying about who God is that you realize that the uncreated Creator exists first, for it is not enough to know God exists. Satan knows God exists. But one must be saved from one's sins.

It is possible that the infinity we are looking for could be simply the universe itself (I don't mean just the one we know, full of galaxies and stars etc but everything our little universe is contained in (whatever that may be)). The nothingness beyond existence may not be a factor at all because existence itself, at it's most basic level, could be infinite.

You are building an infinite regress of Russian dolls, but that's not possible because you would have happened already, having had a eternity to do so. Nature's existence, therefore, could not always have existence. Non-existence can't create anything either, since something can't come from nothing.

So the idea we have is a sort of infinite breeding ground of universes. There's no need to conjure up fictional characters in order to explain the infinity which we think is required.

Don't worry about who God is yet. First deal with the problem of your theory. If there was an infinite breeding ground of universes that is an infinite regress, but if that were the case, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

As for how this 'breeding ground' might create a new universe, physics is starting to find answers and if you have any real interest in this you should read into dark matter theories. Seeing as I am not a physicist myself I won't risk the validity of my argument by wrongly explaining something to you.

Whether there was such a thing or not is irrelevant for our discussion, because an infinite regress is impossible. Since infinite regress is impossible then God created. Once you realize God created, come around to realizing who God is in Christ, then from there you know there is not multiverses, since it is not part of eternity future or eternity past in Scripture. I believe in M-theory, sounds plausible, or seems to be our best explanation so far. But that is just 11 dimensions, not other universes or realities.

Agreed. Perhaps 'true' was a bad word. 'Naked' reality would fit better I think. Our reality is certainly distorted. Regardless, what we see is certainly based entirely on reality.

I don't think our reality is distorted or naked. It is truly as God wants it to be. It's a perfect creation He could not make any better than this one. This is the best of the best.

I have dealt with it. The issue is that you have yet to give a reason why me having existed more than once is impossible.

If you dealt with it where I have not responded, please quote it. My proof has nothing to do with you existing more than once, but that if there was an infinite regress, you would have happened already and not exist now, having had an eternity to do so. Why misunderstand the basic proof?

We have not established any such thing. We have established that an infinite creator may exist and that there is no reason to believe it is the god you are imagining. This should be fun

We have established, more specifically, that an uncreated Creator exists, because nature can't always have existed. It can't always have existed, because if it had, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. We can talk about whether Jesus is the God later after you realize God exists, but suffice it to say you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. Amen.

Don't put the cart [Jesus] before the horse [proof of God].

Where is your evidence for this other than the bible? The bible is not evidence it is a claim. What is your evidence for the claims made by the bible?

I have 45 earliest sources, 17 of which are non-Christian, in the first 150 years of Jesus' death. This is unprecedented in antiquity. There are more sources for Jesus than the any ten figures combined. The Bible is filled with testimony and a claim, the claim by the original disciples in their writings and through oral tradition and creeds they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

The evidence for the claim of the resurrection of Jesus, that the Bible is true, is that these are multiple independent attestations in agreement for the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. And that the disciples willingly died for their claim.

That's like saying I can find no naturalistic explanation for the events in Harry Potter, therefore we should all believe magic is real.

You can find a naturalistic explanation for the events in Harry Potter. The popular author wrote these stories from her imagination and she testifies to that fact. They are admitted into evidence as fictional writing and not actual beings or persons. You're slow eh?

Put more simply, my naturalistic explanation is that the bibles claims didn't happen. The evidence for them happening is one book written by cultists 100 years after the story they were writing about. Do you believe the Greek books about the gods on Olympus?

If you want to throw out the whole Bible as never having happened then you have to throw out all of history since Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. Your doublestandard exposes you as unthinking, and no historian throws out the whole Bible, but they glean certain facts they can be certain of. We have over 25,000 archaeological finds related to the Scriptures. Since the writing styles are very diverse and no one human being could write all the books, that blows that theory of yours. We have the Septuagint over 3 centuries before Christ predicting exactly when Jesus would be the ransom for sins. You can reproduce the enter NT except for 11 verses from quotes of the early church fathers in the 1st and 2nd centuries, so that blows your theory again.

Also, Acts was a biography of Paul, but Luke makes no mention of his death though does recount several of his near death experiences. Death is sorta important to mention in a biography. Since Paul died in the Neronian persecutions around 65 AD, Acts would have been written around 55 AD. But Luke said this was two of his former work, the gospel of Luke, so that places Luke around 45 AD. Luke took from Mark so that places Mark around 35 AD just two years after the cross. And since Mark worked closely with Peter, Peter's two books are quite early also, nearly right on top of the events. This is unprecedented in antiquity. Compare this to writings about Greek gods that nobody ever saw but were just assumed.

Moreover, we can apply the same principle of infinite regress to gods. If there were gods creating gods for eternity, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. God of the Bible says there are not gods, they are just made up, idols, and that there is no gods beside God, before god or after God. He was alone from everlasting.

Yes as a historian myself I have found the bible very useful for studying Roman life and christian beliefs, but it doesn't prove that supernatural events took place, only that some people claimed they did (which is not uncommon in the ancient world!). There is no evidence to support their claims.

It is not common at all. Nothing could be more uncommon. There were no eyewitness resurrection claims of a God or of a person who claimed to be God. We know this supernatural event of resurrection took place because you concede you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs as documented in Scripture whom died for their testimony. People don't willing die for what they know is a lie and group hallucinations are impossible.

OK, maybe Christians on the whole don't believe god is as similar to a human as I made out, although past Christians certainly did and so did the writers of the bible. But still, I find it very improbable that an infinite creator would be able to think in a way which allows it to communicate with humans. Such thought processes require a brain (or similar) which has evolved and is based on the laws of space and time. You claim that god is outside of space and time and is infinite.

Past Christians thought no differently about the Triune God, recognizing Jesus was calling Himself God, forgiving sins, giving sight to the blind, healing the sick, and praying to the Father, and said He would be raised to the right hand of the Father and give the Holy Spirit which is the life of the Father and the Son. Here we see the operation of the Three Persons of the Godhead, co-equal and co-inherent.

You think God is unable to communicate in a way to relate to us? How silly. Give God a little credit. He created all things. I am sure He can enter His creation in the likeness of the flesh to relate to us as Jesus did. He proved it by His resurrection. If you build a house, you should be allowed to enter it. Or if you play a computer game, you should be allowed to use your player character. That's a crude comparison but you get the point. Thus, Jesus can enter Hades, die on the cross, resurrect, ascend, give His Spirit to indwell born-again believers, and return to reign on earth for 1000 years before transferring His elect into the New City and you to Hell.

Jesus and the bible are not proof of a claim they are the claim itself. A claim cannot be evidence for itself.

A claim can be evidenced by itself or in conjunction with others. Jesus and the Bible are proof of the claim and they are the claim itself.

Each of these books in the Bible are independent sources written by different authors in different places in different times, yet all in agreement. That's what historians like to see: independent sources. The New Testament writers give their testimony and oral tradition and creeds by these original eyewitnesses. So the Bible is allowed to prove not just the historicity of Jesus, but also His resurrection. Hence, over 99% of scholars who do thesis or peer review journal work on the resurrection claim concede a very important fact that the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

If you can't find a naturalistic explanation, then you admit Jesus is God though you may not accept for your salvation, thus you would go to Hell.

No you are bias to a belief which brings you security. Any rational person who has read my arguments above will see that you are bias to evidence supporting an infinite creator, and hold on to claims with no evidence with regard to the Christian beliefs, while ignoring the mountain of evidence against them.

The truth gives me security I agree. Any rational person has seen you have not been able to overturn the infinite regress problem and as you go on in being unable to, people can see your bias in that behavior. Whereas I gave into the evidence nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and I too can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs so I give into reality. Don't ignore this evidence and the mountain of evidence in Scripture for the disciples' eyewitness testimony. It's all right there.

As I have clearly explained in this reply your arguments are nowhere near as certain as you like to believe

As we have seen, I responded to all your points show you what's wrong with your thinking and where it stems from ultimately.

I'm terrified. Please provide some evidence for the existence of heaven/hell without simply restating a claim.

Something tells me you are not terrified. Since you have no fear of Hell it's a perfect place for you. Since God is proven here, Jesus is proven to be God, and Jesus spoke on Hell more than anyone, then to Hell you shall go. Another way you can understand this is to realize that free will is not truly free if you don't have the choice to be eternally separated from God.

As for that last comment stop being so immature and pathetic. You've just proved that you are desperate for any way to get at me due to your weak arguments. That comment was referring to the fact that I had said I wouldn't be drawn into arguing with yet another religious fanatic, but fell into the trap.

The last comment was true so why be immature about it? That's pathetic. Since all my points were strong and like you, I don't know how to overturn them either, you're acting desperate with ad hominems instead of giving into reality. Satan's minions like calling Christians religious fanatics, but think how religious you are in shutting your mind down. My faith pales in comparison to your faith, for it takes far greater faith to believe in what you do without any evidence at all and overlook the evidence provided here.

Praise the Lord, God has chosen us before the foundations of the world, and no person knows all the wonderful and amazing things God has planned for those who love Him.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. (Ps. 14.1)
Without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him. (Heb. 11.6)
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3.19-20)

For those such as yourself as we have proved, your future is the Lake of Fire. You're a bad person. Just like we have to lock up prisoners in jail fore life, you need to be locked up in Hell for eternity, for God would not be loving to let you out to do harm to His sons and daughters.

My prayers go out to you. Let me leave you with the words of Jesus...

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Now John the Baptist speaks of Jesus.
Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I [must] decrease.
Jhn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Jhn 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Jhn 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The wrath of God is on you Spacedog.

[Spacedog]

I will answer a few things. I have a life and therefore do not intend to read through your ramblings on proof of the bible and what not I find it incredibly boring. No level minded historian bases belief on something as bold as supernatural events on just one book plus maybe a few other writings. Jesus was not well documented considering it's claimed he was performing miracles. He was unmentioned by any Roman historians at the time. I do not doubt he may have existed. Indeed the bible accurately names people and places, but none of this proves supernatural events.

Ok so first off lets deal with infinite regress.

It seems we had a misunderstanding. I now realize you are assuming the same person can not exist more than once because you believe we have a soul. This actually made me laugh when I realized it was that simple. There is no reason to assume life has any kind of magical essence and I do not believe humans or any other animal have a soul. If someone existed in another universe with my exact genetic make-up and past experiences they would be the same person. Therefore you argument as to why infinite regress is impossible has been easily beaten. Of course you will disagree with me because you believe in souls, but that's besides the point.

Now, the other thing I'd like to get on to is actually supporting an infinite creator but showing that your god is not necessary. You certainly are slow not to understand the simple example I gave, but I can't help but wonder if you pretended to believe I was still attempting to disprove infinite regress simply to avoid having to provide a proper response. Nonetheless, we shall try again.
I shall start by restating that I am agnostic to an infinite creator. Indeed, I'm actually quite convinced that something needs to been infinite, but as I do not believe in souls I see no reason why that infinity should not be the regress itself. However, lets assume for the moment infinite regress is not real so we can move on to the important bit.
My point, which you totally misunderstood (whether that was down to slow wit or intentional misleading I am not sure), was that the required infinite creator does not need to be a magic being. This is the infinite breeding ground of universes. There is no infinite regress here I've moved on, we are calling the breeding ground an infinite creator. There is absolutely no reason for us to assume there is a conscious being, an infinite breeding ground fills all of the rational slots and none of the irrational ones.

Praise the Lord, God has chosen us before the foundations of the world, and no person knows all the wonderful and amazing things God has planned for those who love Him.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. (Ps. 14.1)
Without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him. (Heb. 11.6)
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3.19-20)

For those such as yourself as we have proved, your future is the Lake of Fire. You're a bad person. Just like we have to lock up prisoners in jail fore life, you need to be locked up in Hell for eternity, for God would not be loving to let you out to do harm to His sons and daughters.

My prayers go out to you. Let me leave you with the words of Jesus...

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Now John the Baptist speaks of Jesus.
Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I [must] decrease.
Jhn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Jhn 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Jhn 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The wrath of God is on you Spacedog.

Lunatic.