Re: 1dave1 @ atheist.net

Quote Originally Posted by 1dave1
What is your source for how the disciples died?
Some verses in the Bible and some extra-Biblical sources.

And how do we know none of them changed their mind?
Because there is no record they changed their minds and they died for it.

It seems unlikely that if one of them denied that he had seen Jesus risen that this would be preserved in writing.
It seems likely that if one or more said that they had never seen Jesus alive from the dead then they would have said so since Paul even said that most were still alive to do so that he included in his list of eyewitnesses. And since they all died as martyrs for this testimony of seeing Jesus alive from the dead that doesn't mesh well with claiming they didn't see Him.

Your right a quick web search failed to find a case. But of course if someone went to their death proclaiming the lie it would be hard to determine that they knew it was a lie.
Anyway you have all of history to find one person who willingly died for a lie. You can't even find one.

But does Peter ever say he was in a group who all saw risen Jesus. Does John?
In their accounts, yes by their words these are groups just as given by Paul and and the Gospels and Acts. Never anything to contrary.

What I mean here, is there any quote where someone is recounting a specific incident where he was with a group who all saw risen Jesus?
Yes, John and Peter in their epistles. Matthew in his gospel and John in his gospel. Even Paul when he saw Jesus testifies those with him heard the voice, saw the light and also fell to the ground with Him, and saw the man, but only Paul could understand what Jesus was saying. The Gospels were oral accounts preserved. There was not a contrary message to this in the beginning in the primary sources.

But would any record of this be preserved?
As was said before, Paul said if there was a contrary message to what was being taught from the beginning, someone would have come forth.

We have very few records from the time. The early christians would be unlikely to preserve such records. And there were hundreds of years when such records would have been considered heresy and would have been destroyed.
Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. In fact, take any ten figures and Jesus has more sources written about Him within 150 years of the person's death. The early Christians are very likely to preserve this record. It's something you would want put to papyri right away so all the books of the NT were written before 65 AD except for Revelation which was written about 95 AD. Since all but 11 verses can be quoted from the early church fathers in the 1st and 2nd century if someone burned something centuries later that's irrelevant.

Are you sure you aren't making the common atheist fallacy here?
Do you mean the fallacy of believing something with no evidence? No, since I gave you the evidence and you have nothing to counter it.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Right?
Right. But such an overwhelming preponderance of evidence as we have seen is evidence.

See above. How do we really know that many people didnt come forth to say otherwise?
I saw above. Didn't see anything to help you. We can only go with evidence. If you want to suggest someone came forth to say otherwise, then you need some evidence. What we do have is many points of corroboration the disciples believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. Christians like evidence so we will stick with the evidence and let you stir.

But can you provide a quote where James is saying he was with a group who all saw risen Jesus?
Why is this required? The twelve groups listed didn't include James and that's alright since James was not an original Apostles. Whether James was included in the 500 or not makes no difference. He was converted as a result of seeing Jesus alive from the dead.

(this to establish that a group saw Jesus, and because it was a group all seeing the same thing, it could not have been an hallucination)
That's correct group hallucinations are impossible. And of those instances where there were individuals alone seeing Jesus physically in person, it's unlikely all would be hallucinations anyhow.

And now part 2 of your proof requires that the diciples went to their death rather than deny having seen risen Jesus.
That's correct, that's the evidence we have from both the New Testament, extra-Biblical and non-Christian sources.

What is your source for the manner of their deaths?
The church fathers and the Bible and non-Christian sources. All this information is common knowledge. Just read their writings. We have a total of 45 sources within 150 years of Jesus' death.

Do you have any source that claims to be an eyewitness to their deaths?
Starting with John who placed himself at the cross when Jesus died. I don't know of any sources of eyewitnesses of their deaths but some must have been present because, for example, Stephen's entire testimony was recounted. Though in most instance, it wouldn't make much sense for those Apostles to be present who would be the only to write about it, since they would be grabbed from the crowd and accosted.