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Thread: A Non-OSAS Posttribber Onlyist, Water Baptism Legalizer

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    Default A Non-OSAS Posttribber Onlyist, Water Baptism Legalizer

    Re: BogusDonut - Youtube

    You would have to explain why there are these saints in heaven at the start (Rev. 7.9) of the Tribulation and during the Tribulation such as the two witnesses and martyrs raptured 3.5 days after they go to rest to account for your posttrib onlyism.

    "Except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess. 2.3). The general rapture and resurrection come after we know of the Antichrist and his global following. The last trumpet is the last 24 months which which start at Rev. 11.15 "there were great voices in heaven." We see at the start of the Tribulation those "before the throne" (7.9) and the "temple of God [in heaven]...them that worship therein" (11.1). They were raptured before the end of the Tribulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BogusDonut
    Well, you have to remember what Jesus did before he appeared to His disciples: He conquered death and brought multitudes out of Hades and they would be in Heaven after that; so I see no reason why these are not the saints (saints is not a term for gentile believers only - it and elect are interchangeable throughout Rev.
    Of course saints (believers) are from all nations, but don't confuse the "elect" in Matt. 24.31 as being the saints, since these refer to the tribes of Israel.

    Matthew 27.52 says, "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose." This is hardly multitudes. Moreover, nothing is said of being raptured so they would have simply gone back to sleep as Lazarus would have. Remember Acts 2 where we see not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet: "For David is not ascended into the heavens" (v.34). So nobody is in heaven yet. People come "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) at the consummation of this age, not before. Even Enoch and Elijah are not in Third Heaven but elsewhere. When they return as the Two Witnesses they will die at that time. Remember what 1 Thess. 4 says, "shall not precede those who have fallen asleep" (v.15). So "comfort one another with these words" (v.18). We are taken up together. There has not been people hanging out in heaven for two thousand years or longer. That does not give us comfort. I think it would help you to see that people have come out of their graves before, then lived full lives and went back to sleep. That's what happened in Matt. 27.52 and with Lazarus. Enoch and Elijah were definitely raptured somewhere. If they were raptured to Third Heaven that would be an exception to the rule. We are talking like one person every thousand years perhaps. Just the uttermost spiritual.

    I notice that you left 2 Thess, which seems to be the way to go with pre-trib doctrine. They never stick to one book, but cherry-pick verses out of it and then try to link it to another verse in another book. Without doing this it can't work.
    I mentioned 2 Thessalonians. Your reply is in response to my sending you message about 2 Thess. but you fail to address what I said in 2 Thess. You seem to be avoiding what I said about 2 Thess., doing some cherry picking yourself.

    The rapture is described as: With the voice of the Arch Angel and with the trumpet. That hardly sounds like a secret gathering. All the so-called pre-trib rapture verses are describing the second coming.
    The rapture and resurrection at the last trumpet is not a secret rapture, but the rapture before the Tribulation is a secret rapture. The second coming of the Lord is His parousia which spans from the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) which takes place before the first trumpet (8.7ff) of the Tribulation, followed by raptures of martyrs 3.5 days after they each individually go to rest, and then the last trumpet rapture and resurrection (11.15) which takes place before the bowls of wrath are poured out over 24 months.

    Another thing is imminence. But when Jesus talks about being surprised He is referring to those who are not aware of Him or prophecy. To believers who are watching, it will be no surprise.
    I think you will be surprised when a couple million are vanished at the first rapture. Will you accuse the saints? (Rev. 12.10) Imminence is a false teaching, since the Temple would need to begin construction before the first rapture could take place. "He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (Dan. 9.27). Where? In the Temple. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [milliennial kingdom] is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that His return is very near, even at the doors" (Matt. 24.15,32-33). The branches of the fig tree (Israel) have not been tender prior to the 20th century. "And the court which is outside the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" (Rev. 11.2). "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (Dan. 8.14). How can the sanctuary, the Temple, be cleansed if it is not completely built?

    I would recommend you learn about partial rapture as this is God's word, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm

    I don't think I've really done this justice in my own words. I haven't been awake long and I don't like to get into e-mail debates, but I used to be pre-trib myself as it has been the main teaching for the 20th and early 21st century. I become more and more uncomfortable about it and am currently writing an essay based on Chuck Missler's Rapture videos (teaching pre-trib), which convinced me even more that it will be post.
    Ephraem in the 4th century said, "For all the saints and the Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World).

    Of course, Ephraem is wrong for it is not the whole Church but only those who keep the word of His patience, are watchful and prayerful who escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 at 7.9 "before the throne" before the first trumpet, 8.7ff, takes place).

    I really encourage you to read the link given as it answers all your issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BogusDonut
    What harm to my soul is there in me believing that Jesus will rapture me and everyone else at the end of the tribulation when He returns to judge the nations? If anything it encourages me to be watchful and prepare for the tribulation. I am not expecting to be whisked away before the pressure comes. The tribulation will separate the wheat from the chaff. And if I'm wrong and there is a pre-trib rapture, Hallelujah!
    Watchman Nee said it best, "The church would lose her hope - 'Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ' (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation." See Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10.

    Let me expand on this. Not only will you not be raptured at the start of the Tribulation because you don't want to be, because you taught falsely, you will also not return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years. That's an awefully long time to be disciplined in "outer darkness" for your rejection of God's way of consummating this age.

    When you see a couple million vanished, will you accuse them of being a "fake rapture", siding with Satan? (Rev. 12.10) How do you think God considers your attitude? Perhaps the reason you believe this is because you are not even born-again. But no matter how you feel about it, your feelings are irrelevant. Since God places Rev. 7.9 before the first trumpet of the Tribulation (8.7ff) then no matter what you may feel about it, the first rapture not only going to occur, but it will occur according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10).

    God says we are not appointed unto wrath, but the bowls if nothing else are clearly the wrath of God. Have you considered the possibility you are worshiping a false Christ since you reject the word of God in so many places? "Pour out the bowls of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16.1).

    The partial rapture belief is not an expecting to be raptured before the Tribulation like pretribber onlyists believe, but we leave it up to God to decide and only know that if we are accounted worthy He will do so.

    When you hear on the news a couple million vanished, I pray you will have a change of heart and not accuse these overcomer believers who were raptured at the first rapture. Lots of people are already prepared to start calling it a "fake rapture" - a grand deception by the Devil.

    Right now you have conflict in your heart (double minded) since you claim you will give glory to God for the first rapture yet you reject it!? Furthermore, you said the Tribulation is to separate the wheat from the chaff. The wheat are the true Christians, the tares try to look like the saved wheat. This is God's judgment on false Christians such as yourself who reject Rev. 7.9 before the trumpets of the Tribulation. That would be one reason you will pass through the Tribulation when the angels cut you off from pretending to be like believers.

    The purpose of a believer passing through the Tribulation is for him, Firstly, to realize he was not ready to be received at the first rapture so he has yet to overcometh. Secondly, the Church is needed in the Tribulation to comfort those who newly come to Christ. Thirdly, the Church is still the leading voice in the world, so our voice is still heard, especially through the martyrdom of the saints and who do not take the mark of the beast. Fourthly, the Church will pass through the Tribulation to expose people like you who teach falsely about end-times because they are so busy in the world, banging on their drums.

  3. #3
    bogus_donut Guest

    Angry The Bogus Donut in question

    This post was written using private e-mail messages between myself and the poster on You Tube. I find it disrespectful and disingenuous for someone to publish private correspondence for public view.

    Yes, I believe the rapture is the event where Jesus gives believers in Him their incorruptible bodies; the dead in Him first, then the living in Him. I believe that this will happen when He returns at the last trumpet, at the end of the tribulation.

    <not being cordial>
    Last edited by Churchwork; 01-01-2011 at 05:13 PM. Reason: not being cordial

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    Quote Originally Posted by bogus_donut View Post
    This post was written using private e-mail messages between myself and the poster on You Tube. I find it disrespectful and disingenuous for someone to publish private correspondence for public view.

    Yes, I believe the rapture is the event where Jesus gives believers in Him their incorruptible bodies; the dead in Him first, then the living in Him. I believe that this will happen when He returns at the last trumpet, at the end of the tribulation.
    If in a private message it was discovered you were a rapist or a murderer, the honorable thing to do is expose you, just as you are exposed for being a false Christian, since you refuse to give your life to the God who keeps, rejecting those who are born-again that "they shall never perish" (John 10.28).

    As well, you reject the fact that the saints are "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the first trumpet (8.7ff) of the Tribulation takes place.

    And the many verses that say if you keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful, you can escape the hour of trial (the Tribulation) that is to come upon the whole world (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10).

    Everything you have spoken to me in private has been false, clearly indicating as the Bible teaches we shall know them by their fruit that you are not born-again.

    Repeating what you believe is irrelevant. What does the Bible say? Deal with the verses given here in this thread and stop shutting your mind down like a zombie for Satan. Stop being Satan's pawn in your world of self-declarations pointing to yourself as the center of the universe. That's very disingenuous of you.

    Why do you want people to respect you when you act that way?
    Last edited by Parture; 01-01-2011 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Exposing a false Christian

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    bogus_donut Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parture View Post
    If in a private message it was discovered you were a rapist or a murderer, the honorable thing to do is expose you, just as you are exposed for being a false Christian, since you refuse to give your life to the God who keeps, rejecting those who are born-again that "they shall never perish" (John 10.28).

    As well, you reject the fact that the saints are "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the first trumpet (8.7ff) of the Tribulation takes place.

    And the many verses that say if you keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful, you can escape the hour of trial (the Tribulation) that is to come upon the whole world.

    Everything you have spoken to me in private has been false, clearly indicating as the Bible teaches we shall know them by their fruit that you are not born-again.

    Repeating what you believe is irrelevant. What does the Bible say? Deal with the verses given here in this thread and stop shutting your mind down like a zombie for Satan. Stop being Satan's pawn in your world of self-declarations pointing to yourself as the center of the universe. That's very disingenuous of you.

    Why do you want people to respect you when you act that way?
    I haven't done anything that requires I be exposed. I have not refused to give my life to God or rejected anyone who is born again or not. I never said I rejected Rev 7:9 either. I simply didn't comment on it, as you didn't comment on questions I put to you. You deleted your posts instead.

    Why don't you post the complete text of both you and me? If you really want to play this game, have the courage to let everyone see your words of hatred and your insults. You've already shown that you are not a trustworthy person, so I'm giving you permission to post it all. Go ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bogus_donut View Post
    he's blocked me.
    Isn't it unethical to have double standards? since the only reason I blocked you on You tube is because you first blocked me. I didn't want to keep getting messages from you while you were sending me messages. How is that Christlike to want a one way street?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bogus_donut View Post
    I haven't done anything that requires I be exposed. I have not refused to give my life to God or rejected anyone who is born again or not. I never said I rejected Rev 7:9 either. I simply didn't comment on it, as you didn't comment on questions I put to you. You deleted your posts instead.

    Why don't you post the complete text of both you and me? If you really want to play this game, have the courage to let everyone see your words of hatred and your insults. You've already shown that you are not a trustworthy person, so I'm giving you permission to post it all. Go ahead.
    Jesus said kick the dust under your feet when they don't receive the proper Christ. Are you a universalist then since you don't reject anyone, thus you include the whole world in breaking bread with your Christ? Breaking bread is just for the saints. You're very worldly.

    Sure you reject Rev. 7.9 because the saints are in heaven there before the first trumpet (8.7ff) of the Tribulation is even blown. The bowls are not poured out till Rev. 15 & 16 yet you place the rapture after that? You're not thinking as you try to take away the hope of the Church. How sad for you this is the way you want to be.

    You have refused to give your life to the God who keeps because you reject those born-again that "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You are not a Christian, but believe in salvation by works. No man is saved by works lest any man should boast. It's better you accept your actual condition now so you can then give your life to Christ.

    That's the problem is you avoided the verses of proof. I have dealt with everything you said, you could not show otherwise.

    Your hatred of the Church is immense, for not only are you like Satan who accuses the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10) who are raptured before the Tribulation, but you believe in salvation by works like all other religions since you think you can lose salvation tomorrow. That would be weird kind of salvation if you could get saved, lose it, get it back, then lose it again. God simply won't save you to begin with in your self-inflicted nonsense.

    I've posted everything relevant to this topic and what remains is you avoid the Scriptures. You're exposed. You're making me laugh. First you blame me for posting your words, then you blame me for not posting your words. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.18). The only thing you are coming across as is being like Satan that great accuser.

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    bogus_donut Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parture View Post
    Isn't it unethical to have double standards? since the only reason I blocked you on You tube is because you first blocked me. I didn't want to keep getting messages from you while you were sending me messages. How is that Christlike to want a one way street?
    You approached me first and I replied saying I didn't want an e-mail debate and got further e-mails trying to bait me, then actually insulting me, so I blocked you. You started this thread to attack me too. Then you did it again with another account. I have nothing to hide, that's why I invited you to publish full transcripts, but I guess you don't want brothers and sisters to see the insulting way you spoke to me. I have quoted your full replies in this thread. I also notice my threads on here being edited by you for "not being cordial". That's a hoot! I'd like to see what you deleted, because I was polite. If you can't be honest, don't post and don't edit mine with another account (with the same name as the second You Tube account name); not very subtle lol.

    Go on, post the transcripts. I don't think any members have bothered with your thread anyway.

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    bogus_donut Guest

    Default A good thread about pre-trib onlyist doctrine.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bogus_donut View Post
    You approached me first and I replied saying I didn't want an e-mail debate and got further e-mails trying to bait me, then actually insulting me, so I blocked you. You started this thread to attack me too. Then you did it again with another account. I have nothing to hide, that's why I invited you to publish full transcripts, but I guess you don't want brothers and sisters to see the insulting way you spoke to me. I have quoted your full replies in this thread. I also notice my threads on here being edited by you for "not being cordial". That's a hoot! I'd like to see what you deleted, because I was polite. If you can't be honest, don't post and don't edit mine with another account (with the same name as the second You Tube account name); not very subtle lol.

    Go on, post the transcripts. I don't think any members have bothered with your thread anyway.
    This is saved for the future whereby you can continually be exposed. Your post was not edited by this account which doesn't have permissions. You can't remember what was posted? I guess it wasn't that important, but certainly worthy of removal for being uncordial, considering the part that was not removed was also uncordial for your first post. I assume by "subtle" you mean sneaky like you, but I am not trying to hide anything. Perhaps you're just projecting your own condition of being sneaky.

    I didn't approach you but you responded to a general post I put on Youtube, then when you responded revealing your false teaching, I replied to you to help show you where you went wrong. Instead of dealing with those verses, you went on a rampage.

    As you kept trying to rationalize your view without ever dealing with the Scriptures, I responded to show you that kind of behavior is dishonest and disingenuous. Nobody is baiting you, nobody is insulting you. As you kept sending me messages, I kept showing you that you were wrong by the Scriptures then you shut your mind down further by blocking, so I blocked in kind. What was unethical of you besides that was you accused me of blocking you after you blocked me first. You are trying to be sneaky. I just didn't want you to keep sending me messages when I was not allowed to reply.

    The purpose of this thread is to expose you since after several exchanges it was clear you are never going to give your life to Christ. It was time to expose you. You're exposed. Lying by accusing I am insulting you is just more unethical games. I have posted everything and have left nothing out. If I insulted you then you are free to show it, but stop accusing of insulting you when you have nothing to back it up. You're like a clanging bell who never needs to prove anything.

    The forum policy is for a new user is to start off with a cordial post. I started off this thread to expose you which I am allowed to do. But you still haven't posted a cordial post yet. Obviously you don't care to be Christlike. You're here just to show your hatred and your obvious unwillingness to deal with the Scriptures which show you are going to Hell.

    You really are a bogus donut. I don't take kindly to your dictatorial way of being. Have you noticed that about yourself? The idea is to prove something you say, not just usurping yourself with pontifications.

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