Re: BogusDonut - Youtube

You would have to explain why there are these saints in heaven at the start (Rev. 7.9) of the Tribulation and during the Tribulation such as the two witnesses and martyrs raptured 3.5 days after they go to rest to account for your posttrib onlyism.

"Except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess. 2.3). The general rapture and resurrection come after we know of the Antichrist and his global following. The last trumpet is the last 24 months which which start at Rev. 11.15 "there were great voices in heaven." We see at the start of the Tribulation those "before the throne" (7.9) and the "temple of God [in heaven]...them that worship therein" (11.1). They were raptured before the end of the Tribulation.

Quote Originally Posted by BogusDonut
Well, you have to remember what Jesus did before he appeared to His disciples: He conquered death and brought multitudes out of Hades and they would be in Heaven after that; so I see no reason why these are not the saints (saints is not a term for gentile believers only - it and elect are interchangeable throughout Rev.
Of course saints (believers) are from all nations, but don't confuse the "elect" in Matt. 24.31 as being the saints, since these refer to the tribes of Israel.

Matthew 27.52 says, "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose." This is hardly multitudes. Moreover, nothing is said of being raptured so they would have simply gone back to sleep as Lazarus would have. Remember Acts 2 where we see not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet: "For David is not ascended into the heavens" (v.34). So nobody is in heaven yet. People come "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) at the consummation of this age, not before. Even Enoch and Elijah are not in Third Heaven but elsewhere. When they return as the Two Witnesses they will die at that time. Remember what 1 Thess. 4 says, "shall not precede those who have fallen asleep" (v.15). So "comfort one another with these words" (v.18). We are taken up together. There has not been people hanging out in heaven for two thousand years or longer. That does not give us comfort. I think it would help you to see that people have come out of their graves before, then lived full lives and went back to sleep. That's what happened in Matt. 27.52 and with Lazarus. Enoch and Elijah were definitely raptured somewhere. If they were raptured to Third Heaven that would be an exception to the rule. We are talking like one person every thousand years perhaps. Just the uttermost spiritual.

I notice that you left 2 Thess, which seems to be the way to go with pre-trib doctrine. They never stick to one book, but cherry-pick verses out of it and then try to link it to another verse in another book. Without doing this it can't work.
I mentioned 2 Thessalonians. Your reply is in response to my sending you message about 2 Thess. but you fail to address what I said in 2 Thess. You seem to be avoiding what I said about 2 Thess., doing some cherry picking yourself.

The rapture is described as: With the voice of the Arch Angel and with the trumpet. That hardly sounds like a secret gathering. All the so-called pre-trib rapture verses are describing the second coming.
The rapture and resurrection at the last trumpet is not a secret rapture, but the rapture before the Tribulation is a secret rapture. The second coming of the Lord is His parousia which spans from the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) which takes place before the first trumpet (8.7ff) of the Tribulation, followed by raptures of martyrs 3.5 days after they each individually go to rest, and then the last trumpet rapture and resurrection (11.15) which takes place before the bowls of wrath are poured out over 24 months.

Another thing is imminence. But when Jesus talks about being surprised He is referring to those who are not aware of Him or prophecy. To believers who are watching, it will be no surprise.
I think you will be surprised when a couple million are vanished at the first rapture. Will you accuse the saints? (Rev. 12.10) Imminence is a false teaching, since the Temple would need to begin construction before the first rapture could take place. "He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (Dan. 9.27). Where? In the Temple. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [milliennial kingdom] is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that His return is very near, even at the doors" (Matt. 24.15,32-33). The branches of the fig tree (Israel) have not been tender prior to the 20th century. "And the court which is outside the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" (Rev. 11.2). "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (Dan. 8.14). How can the sanctuary, the Temple, be cleansed if it is not completely built?

I would recommend you learn about partial rapture as this is God's word, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm

I don't think I've really done this justice in my own words. I haven't been awake long and I don't like to get into e-mail debates, but I used to be pre-trib myself as it has been the main teaching for the 20th and early 21st century. I become more and more uncomfortable about it and am currently writing an essay based on Chuck Missler's Rapture videos (teaching pre-trib), which convinced me even more that it will be post.
Ephraem in the 4th century said, "For all the saints and the Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World).

Of course, Ephraem is wrong for it is not the whole Church but only those who keep the word of His patience, are watchful and prayerful who escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 at 7.9 "before the throne" before the first trumpet, 8.7ff, takes place).

I really encourage you to read the link given as it answers all your issues.