John Calvin of Geneva, Augustine of Hippo and James White of Phoenix

[Parture]

I'll just ignore this because there is not a honest Calvin scholar on the planet who would agree with you. Where did you get that quote from? Cite the source and we'll deal with it.

That's a dumb comment. Calvin himself said it. It's such a popular quote too. The source is all over the internet. That you are asking me what the source is shows you are really being dumb when you claim to know what he said. I have scores and scores of quotes of his murderous pursuits and verbeage. Take the quote and put it into a search engine and on the first page of Google you will see the source.

Just as Christ is the head of the Church and is its Saviour, so also Adam is the head of fallen humanity and is its condemnation, as Romans 5 teaches. Therefore, since Adam represented all humanity, all humanity is justly condemned for the sin of Adam, get it? So a person who is born a sinner is to blame because he is under Adam, even though he had nothing to do with the circumstances of his birth--this is headship theology. There's an age of accountability? That's news to me. Where did you get that from the Bible? Nobody deserves the right to be saved. Where did you get this from the Bible? In your analogy you assume that the person in quicksand is innocent. It actually looks more like this: Two sinners who hate God will all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, are drowning in quicksand. As the holy God walks by, the sinners spit at him and shake their fists because they cannot bear to look upon holiness. God looks at the two sinners who are equally condemned and decides to impart grace on the one and the leave the other to his own desires. So now that you really understand Calvinism from this biblical analogy, please show me how this is unjust, and why this God is Satan.

It's unjust to provide no grace because they were born that way. What you are teaching is gnosticism, that is, being created by an evil god. God is obligated to provide mercy and grace sufficient for us all, just as the verses I quoted you say. This is who God is. He is merciful and loving an would want none to perish. But you say He wants people to perish and gives them no way out. You are like Hitler towards the Jews with your god, after all your god is just a reflection of you. To round out your theory, see if you can find a specific verse that specifically says we are all condemned to Hell because we are born into sin rather than because we do sin and refuse His mercy. You don't believe in the time of recompense? What do you think Revelation 20.4 is talking about? Why are Christians called to overcometh if there are no consequences and commensurate rewards given in Revelation 2 & 3 if there is no age of accountability? I am sad to hear you reject the Jesus who will return to reign on earth for 1000 years. Perhaps you deny this because you are you think irresistibly selected like a robot.

The only reason you have received the grace of God is because God opened your blind eyes and sin-captive heart. That's why you don't wallow in your sin. This is all Calvinism is, and when you call it "heresy" I have to laugh again. Give him the glory, not to your fallen human will. Your will was dead and you were a slave to sin, but Jesus set you free and gave you a new will by which you received his grace, through faith, and were justified by his grace alone. This is Calvinism. I think the Lord Jesus wants you to finally give him the credit for your salvation, rather than boasting in your decision, because your decision didn't come first; he first opend your dead heart first, and then afterwards imparted a new will within your by which you chose for Jesus. Your regeneration came before your choosing; John 3:16-20 teaches that the unregenerate heart doesn't even THINK about choosing God but loves evil, and first must be regenerated. This is biblical Calvinism, which you call heresy.

You got it backwards. The reason why God opened my eyes is because of the aforementioned sufficient grace and coming to God with an honest heart to see I need a Savior in Jesus by what He did for us; whereas others such as yourself do not. That's how God set it up. That's how He does this. He is relational. Think of it this way. If you had a choice to create God's way or the way you describe which would be better? Clearly it would be better to give us all the choice to interact and commune with free willed beings. That makes for a much more vibrant and lively creation and doesn't dumb it down like Calvinism does. You're giving your will all the glory because all you needed to do to be saved was pridefully assume you were irresistibly selected without repentance. I don't have a doublestandard like you when you claim you were irresistibly selected while accusing Christians of receiving what Jesus did for us. You can't see the conflict in that can you? You simply have a false faith one which you did not have to repent to the cross as a helpless sinner to be saved. Instead you boast of being irresistibly selected. John 3 doesn't agree with you, for we read that we are called to look upon that snake on the pole and whosoever is willing can be saved. Nothing about what you said about the unregenerated man being unable to receive what Jesus did for us.

You have a skewed view of predestination and predetermination. Is God forcing me to write this message to you now? No. But he has decreed it, and this is why there's a purpose in it. Just because he decrees something does not mean he hasn't given me a genuine creaturely will that feels free in the human real and that concurs with his decree. All we Calvinists are saying is that this human will is NOT actually free in God's realm because God decreed time. How is this heresy? No Calvinist believes we are just robots, except maybe hyper-Calvinists. Free will means the ability to choose, and humans do have that ability to choose, but, as John 3:18-20 teaches, in ultimate issues like salvation they ALWAYS choose evil rather than good, and that's because their will is corrupt. I'm the one saying they need a new will in order to choose, but you are the one saying they can choose the truest good (that is, the gospel) by their old, corrupted will that is only "wooed" rather than "replaced" by God's Spirit. Which view is actually heresy? I think yours, and history backs me up on this point. You only think I'm using double talk because you are interpreting the unfathomable decree of God in predestination through limited human reason, so of course the majesty of God's decree doesn't fully make sense to you; even though it makes sense to me, it doesn't fully make sense to me either, but I still believe it because it's biblical.

In God's realm, God created us all with free will. You do believe you are a robot because you said there is no free will in God's realm. Where does John 3.18-20 says man always chooses evil so that man can never choose what Jesus did for us on the cross? As you learn more about your Calvinism realize that the Calvinist must insert into the text that which is not there. If you take the plain text, you see God is pleading with us and that therefore we have a choice before us. What separates from receiving God is our own decision to be what we want to be. Our will is not replaced when we are born-again, it is rather, renewed. When you backtrack what is going on, you realize we are all made in God's image still, even though we are fallen, and by that image we have free will no matter how fallen it may be. God knows though the fallen will also needs His mercy and grace that is sufficient for us all. This is why none of us are "without excuse" towards His work, but under Calvinism a person would have an excuse because they were not given sufficient grace to have a genuine choice. God reveals His way of saving in the Bible. There are no verses for irresistible grace or preterition, but lots of verses for God's pleading, sufficient grace, and free will. Free will is mentioned over 4000 times in the Bible. What you have may make sense to you because that's what you want to be saved by the god you describe, but I would not. Calvinism is internally consistent, but the problem is it is false. It is evil to worship a God who doesn't provide sufficient grace to all. It is also lame to resort to claiming because God is infinite we can't understand His ways. He gives His word which obviously is so we can understand His plan and will.

I'm not saying man merits salvation by receiving Christ. We receive the free gift of his grace by the MEANS of faith, not "because" of faith. Faith is only the instrument of that reception, not its cause. Thus, salvation is by grace alone. This is what "faith alone" means. It doesn't mean I'm saved because of the merits of my faith--faith has no merits here because it is not giving but receiving. The fact that you call fallen man a "sovereign being" says it all; it makes sense with your view to lift up man and put down God, which is why you lift up man's will but put down God's will (election, predestination), and this is what you call biblical???

Even "faith" is a gift of God that without we could never be saved either. We could not exist if He didn't create us in His image. We can all freely obtain this gift of faith if we search God out with all our hearts and souls. The reason you haven't found the God I have described to you in His word is because you have not searched Him out with all your heart and soul. You want a selfish salvation. Man truly is a sovereign being not a robot. You want to be an automaton, but God wants better than that. That's why He created you in His image. You're lifting up yourself when you exalt yourself to the world you are irresistibly selected without repentance. If a Christian were to engender that kind of thought we would feel ugly and grotesque inside, but you don't because you are not regenerated and you don't want to be. Not only are you lifting up yourself but you lift yourself up above all those others you think are going to Hell without any grace or mercy whatsoever. These two children of God in quicksand are just playing in the sand. They are kids. They are not even the age of accountability yet, but when they do reach the age of accountability even then still your god has no love. God does not predestinate and elect the way you want to Him. He can't, He won't. It goes totally against His nature. It's evil what you want. You're trying to be saved in your head, leaving your spirit unreachable by God.

God can kill anyone at any time he wants because life belongs to him. I can't kill because life doesn't belong to me. This is why murder is prohibited FOR MEN in the OT. God can do things I can't, so it is not true that "if it is evil for us, it is evil for God", sorry. Fallen man won't accept the opportunity for salvation unless his fallen will is REPLACED (not wooed) by the Spirit of God, so you labor in vain by trying to safeguard this worthless doctrine of yours that didn't save you or anyone else on the planet. If you are saved, it's because God replaced your will, even though you stubbornly refuse to see this. It's sad how you forfeit the biblical doctrines of predestination and irresistible grace for the foolish and impractical doctrine of autonomous, fallen free will.

God can't kill anyone anytime He wants to because that would be evil. You keep giving God evil attributes. Don't you realize you are talking about Satan not God? You have a child, you ought not to kill him, but you say you can because this life belongs to you. Yes, if it is evil for us to do something, it is evil for God to do it, since His standards are not less than our own. God wooed me, He did not have to make me a robot. When I look back upon how Go wooed me it is most wonderful all the little things He did and all the times I resisted yet finally came around. My Christian friends are wooed not irresistibly imposed upon by your evil tyrant, so you labor in vain in trying to make us like you. True Christians can never become what you are now. God didn't replace my will but renewed it. Regeneration takes place in the spirit, quickened with new life, given eternal life, for the Holy Spirit to indwell. We still keep our spirit, but it is quickened and we are given a new spirit of eternal life for the Holy Spirit to indwell. Satan has told you that your will has been replaced. What's really going on with you is that you are demonically possessed, since that is what Satan does is replace wills, so you have given your will over to Satan for him to control it. What else can Jesus say to you except you are "condemned already" (John 3.18). That's a major difference how God works. He never possess your will and takes it over. Your consent is always required. Whereas Satan tries to posses it and take it over without your consent. Whenever you encounter a situation, sense how the spirit is working; if he is acting like Satan just described you know it is not of God, but the spirit is working with your decision in mind, then you know it is of God. Think how impractical it is to carry around the pride of always thinking you were irresistibly selected that stems from this demonic possession you are under. I would get no holy energy from that yet you do feed off that evil.

Ah, Gobbledygook! No Calvinist denies biblical repentance and faith. Read John Calvin's Institutes and read the truth of what he said. When the bible speaks of "repent and be converted" it doesn't mean "by your work of repentance, not God's grace, God will save you," as if it's a works alone salvation. Yet this is how you use this text. If it doesn't mean this, then it doesn't support your views. All we Calvinists are affirming is what Ezekiel affirmed about the old heart that is REPLACED (not wooed) by a NEW HEART (Ezekiel 36:26), yet if you want to keep that old heart and its corrupted will suit yourself. How is this Calvinist view heresy? Show me chapter and verse. You feel like you were doing the work of salvation because you are looking at your salvation through the limited eyes of man, and for reasons unknown to me, you deny to look at salvation through God's eyes. Do you even know what "irresistible grace" really means? It does NOT mean that I "cannot resist" God's grace because he forces it upon me. (To call god raising a sinner from the dead by his grace "forcing salvation" on him is nonsense, but that's another matter). No, rather it means "if he raises me from the dead, he wont fail to make himself so "irresistibly" beautiful to me that I will without fail accept him. Your view takes away the glory of God, because you say that God can fail to save a sinner. I say God cannot fail because his will is irresistibly beautiful, and if he desires to save me, I will be saved. Wake up and smell the coffee.

What Calvinists call repentance and faith, Christians don't consider true repentance and faith, because it is irresistibly imposed and assumed, whereas we received these gifts because God's grace is sufficient and therefore we have the choice to freely obtain them. In order to receive a new heart and a new spirit you would have to genuinely receive what God did for us all. To receive would require true repentance and true faith, not by the pedestal you are on to declare pridefully to the world you were irresistibly selected and there was nothing you could do to refuse it. To get repentance and faith you must come to God with an honest heart. God makes Himself beautiful to everyone but the many such as yourself who reject His beauty and replace with subterranean thoughts of irresistible grace. You claim you were irresistibly made to love the god of Calvinism but in reality that's not true. You just invoke this false faith unto yourself because selfishly you don't want to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. I suppose you feel you would have to give up too much or you're just so afraid to give up control of self. It can be scary there is no doubt about it, because you have clinged to your self life for so long you don't anything else. You want a selfish salvation that much is clear; it is selfish to us if we were saved the way you want to be but it is not selfish to you because you put up a wall between you and God. God can't fail to save the sinner. I am saved. How has He failed? You reject this God. Why is God a failure because your choice to want to go to Hell? If God's will is irresistibly beautiful to everyone then everyone would be saved, so you contradict yourself again.

God is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) NOT "Savior of all men [to sustain men but not from Hell], specially those who believe". If God is the Savior of all men to sustain them, then certainly He is the Savior of all men from Hell "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16).

[Parture]

You might think you're being led by the Spirit, but believe me, you're not. You might be led by the Spirit in other ways, but you're definitely being led by your own desires and prejudices when it comes to Calvinism. Believe me, I used to despise Calvinism also, until I actually studied it more deeply and found the sweet aroma of the gospel within its doctrines. See how God's truth overcame my prejudice? Out of love of the truth I accepted as truth what I hated and despised. Also, when I was a King James Onlyist I also believed myself led by the Spirit of God, but later found out that I was actually led by my own fears and prejudices, and God faithfully found a better way for me, and ever since I came out of idolizing the King James Bible I've been blessed. I don't really care who is going to heaven or hell; that's not what I focus on. But for you to say that 99% of Calvinists are going to hell is just poppycock. Do you really think being saved "God's way" is by his Spirit wooing my corrupted and fallen will to accept Jesus? I doubt it. Real salvation God's way is Paul's conversion on the road when the Sovereign Jesus didn't at all care what Paul wanted or desired by his "free will" and simply converted him out of the mass that is fallen humanity. God convert's sinners; sinners don't convert themselves. Now you may take passages in the Bible out of context to argue against this(e.g. Acts 3:19) but this is horrendous biblical interpretation.

Trust me you are going to Hell because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. I haven't had any of your problems like KJV idolatry. I have always believed in the open Bible. What's interesting is none of the doctrines or beliefs I have had have chanced, for God keeps me in the truth. In other words, I never leaped-frogged into stuff and overassumed like you did. Perhaps you should consider you are making the same mistake again with Calvinism. What the Holy Spirit is telling me is that you were never saved to begin with, you found Christianity distasteful, so you wanted to construct something else and that became Calvinism for you, the pride of thinking you were irresistibly selected. You have a contradiction as well because you said you were saved some other way before than you are saved now under the way Calvinism teaches. You don't care that people are going to Hell which stands to reason because Calvinism is cold and heartless. It has no feeling to sense this is the worst thing possible for people. You don't know how to shed a tear for others because to you they are just being preteritioned like Hitler sent the Jews to the gas chambers. It's just part of your god's novel and you are a pawn in his game. I know you probably think you could be on the right track, but just know that there are a body of believers out there, a "little flock," who know that you have never been born-again and probably never will be. God's way is to woo and plead with us absolutely. Any other way would be unholy and unrighteous. God did not just convert Paul, but God like Peter said "Repent ye therefore, and be converted" (Acts 3.19). After giving a long discourse to convince, he then gives them the choice like God did with Paul, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" to convince, to give Paul the choice. Realize why you are here. It's because there is an uneasiness in your own conscience about what you believe in, but take that to its conclusion and give your life to Christ, but before you do so you will have to rebuke Calvinism. You will have to say to God you don't want to be saved that way. You want this other Christ. You must choose the right Christ. Not the false Christ.

What is faith to you? Something that I do, that I muster from my own will-power? If this is your faith, let it never come near me. Real faith is a gift from God, something outside of us, something that does NOT come naturally to us fallen creatures with corrupted wills. Tell me one thing: Why do you place the doctrine of the corrupt human will as the center point of your theology? WHY do you want to keep this doctrine? Do you think the doctrine of free will is the center of the Bible? Is this what the Bible is about, man, and his will? Sorry, the Bible is really about God and his will.

The will is not the center, God is the center, but for God to be the center He must give us the choice, for anything less is robots. God can surely do better than that and surely God wants to commune with sovereign free willed beings, not automatons and characters in a novel or a bunch of chess pieces He can move around or yank one kid out of the sand with a hook and kick the other down so he dies. What love is that? The beauty of God is His standards are always higher than ours. As good as we may think we are, He is always better. Ask yourself why you want to keep this false teaching of Total depravity and a god who is unable to provide sufficient grace to everyone to have the choice? Just know how you come across. The way you come across to others is that you erect this idol called Total depravity that says you can't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated; therefore, what do you do? What you do is you take on the mistaken assumption, without repentance, to pridefully think you were irresistibly selected so you don't have to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. By assuming you could not repent it appeases your conscience with this idol, but it can only smother it for so long. As time goes on, you will become more aware of people you hurt with Calvinism, this pride, the delusion of it all, but by then when you are in Hell it will be too late because it will be more painful for you to repent and give your life to Christ than to spend eternity in Hell. And sad to say, this is the course you are on and it will take a miracle to get you off that train. You simply what to be with a lesser god which is really just an idol, than the God of the Bible, for God of the Bible always trumps your god, since to have the ability to create sovereign free-willed beings is always better than not being able to. Just like a child doesn't know how to a build a multinational corporation with hundreds of thousands of employees each with their own free will, Calvinism cannot fathom how God can do this on the grandest scale.

[Finestwheat]

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Rom. 1.16). This verses does not say "the power of God for faith to every one who has been saved." Only the sinners who "received him...them that believe on his name" (John 1.12) become "born again...by the word of God...which by the gospel is preached" (1 Pet. 1.23,25). Indeed, "faith cometh by hearing...the word of God" (Rom. 10.17), showing human participation. There is not one verse that says faith comes by regeneration. Do we dare turn "that believing ye might have life through his name" (John 20.31) into "that having life through his name, ye might believe," or "believe...and though shalt be saved" (Acts 16.31) into "be saved and though shalt believe," or "come unto me...and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28) into "all who are at rest come unto me," or "he that believeth is not condemned" (John 3.18) into "he that is not condemned believeth," or "he that believeth...shall never die" (John 11.25-26) into "he that shall never die believeth"? The Bible is too clear to corrupt.

The way man thinks is to impose upon others. It is a very fallen man-centered view. This is the core of Calvinism-to think like a man so God must be like the sinner. The truth is God is big. He can create us with free will. No one knows the things He has planned for those who love Him. He Himself can stand back and let us choose without having to impose. If man would be this way towards fellow man more, this world would be a better place. There would be less Calvinists in the world. Calvinists are trying to pull the world towards another Hitler-type character in your novel of irresistible grace for those who pridefully assumed they were irresistibly selected just because they think they were born for this privilege and preterition against the Jews as racially insuperior. I would rather go to Hell than be with such an evil god. It's interesting in Calvinism everything is reversed: Hell is Heaven and Heaven is Hell; repentance and faith come after salvation not before. Satan changes up everything. He tries to change the times and the ways.

People have written that if it wasn't for Calvinism, Hitler could not have had the foundation from which to build on to get away with what he got away with. It is a great deception to deny that God can have sufficient grace for all. It speaks of the deficiency of your god if he could not supply sufficient grace to all. Ultimately what Hitler and Calvinists are trying to do is exterminate the Jews with made up preterition, made up replacement theology, made up year-day theory, denying the Antichrist exists, remain in a selfish salvation, and willingly taking the mark of the beast or implant under their skin. After all it is their god's irresistibly grace that made them do it. Who cares about conscience. If Satan can get rid of the Jews, then he would have thwarted God's plan. He could accuse God of breaking His promise to them. He would be liar not to mention incompetent. Surely Satan could do better will be his thoughts like the Calvinists who have come up with another way to read the text with insertions and don't worry about contradictions.

It sure looks like Satan is losing though doesn't it? Israel is a nation after 2500 years. Prophecy fulfilled. She looks poised to stay for good. Israel will be the center of all nations from where Jesus will return to reign in the 3rd Temple for the millennial kingdom. Revelation 20.3 says the nations won't be deceived in the 1000 years while historicists claim the 1000 years is now even though there are wars and rumors of wars. There is no such thing as accountability and rewards in the time of recompense. This is called antinomianism. Nobody is really accountable for anything in Calvinism when you got irresistible grace and preterition. It's all done by strings, pulleys and levers through irresistibly imposed grace. No need for free will that's truly free within providence of God and His guiding care. Who needs that the Calvinist contends? Calvinists don't worship God the Father through Christ by the Holy Spirit. They worship Satan and his simulation through the Antichrist by the False Prophet. Just ask any Calvinist if he will take the mark of the beast in the Tribulation that will be here soon? He thinks these events have already happened.