Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wagner
Hello Troy,

As I anticipated, you've rushed right into a textbook special pleading fallacy, claiming that God "exists outside of time and nature," but failing to give any evidence that there is such a realm for a God to inhabit. The short version of your response is, "God doesn't have to obey any rules, because he's a magic being living in a magic realm." If a realm "outside of time and nature" actually exists, where is it exactly? What properties does it possess, if not temporal or natural ones? How does God engage in a causal act (creation) within such a realm, and how does he manage to place his creation (the universe) outside of this realm?
You're avoiding the point, not adhereing to the rules of logic. Since there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects in nature (for the reasons given) and something in nature can't come from nothing (for the reasons given), you're left with no other option than the uncreated Creator who necessarily then must exist outside time and space, so it is illogical to ask "...where is it exactly?" You even said it would be "outside of time and nature". That's where in a non-spacial sense only. You can't ask this question spatially because God exists outside of space. You are asking some other questions like how does God do this? I don't know. I am not God. All I know is it would be necessary since no other option exists, and it is unreasonable to demand how God does things always since only God would know all things.

The remainder of your argument consists solely of unsupported assertions, and there are a number of ironic moments when you undermine yourself. You say that God has revealed himself to you through Jesus. But then you go on to say that we must "reserve some knowledge for God that we could never know because He would be outside of time and space, infinitely greater than us, and we could never be God. This is the beginning of true humility." I'm always delighted to be lectured on "humility" by someone who thinks he's BFF with the creator of the universe.
Sorry I don't know what your acronym means that only you know (don't be selfish), but if you think what I said are unsupported assertions, you would have to show it, rather than just say it. Since the uncreated Creator is proven (I have received no argument against the proof) then it is reasonable to ask who He is or where does He reveal Himself to us? Since none can compare to Christ by the resurrection proof, and you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs, though you may not concede openly Jesus is God, you are as well admitting that He is.

I hear Christians tell me all the time that God is just so super-awesome that there are things about him we can't know. I can't help noticing they always do this immediately after they have claimed a great deal of specific, "revealed" knowledge about God, and all I have done is press them for some details. It seems to me what's really going on here is they're leaving themselves a rhetorical back door to slip out of when the going gets rough, because the one thing they left out of their apologetics toolkit is anything resembling evidence. But hey, maybe I'm just not humble enough.
If you don't think it is evidence, then counter it. To repeat the evidence is as follows. Since nature can't always have existed and can't start up from nothing then there must exist the uncreated Creator even though we don't know how He does all things, nor is it reasonable to think we could for He would be infinitely greater than us; but we can look at the evidence to know that this is true.

Your last paragraph, I must say, is a mess. This passage — "So the very criticism you seek to undermine which you special plead, contrary to the evidence supplied, for infinite regress of the universe doesn't apply to the uncreated Creator." — doesn't even make sense as good English. What exactly are you sayingg in the first clause? I have not made a special pleading fallacy. You have, by positing a God then insisting you don't have to explain him and that he gets to break all the rules. You then claim to have supplied "evidence," when in fact all you have done is repeat assertions.
I like this sentence because though it is grammatical correct it confounds you: "So the very criticism you seek to undermine which you special plead, contrary to the evidence supplied, for infinite regress of the universe doesn't apply to the uncreated Creator."

Let me help you try to understand it: "So the very criticism you seek to undermine which you special plead for infinite regress of the universe doesn't apply to the uncreated Creator" because of the necessity of His existence outside time and space.

How is God breaking rules since He does not exist in nature? He is only breaking rules if He exists in nature. You have to show why you think the evidence is not evidence rather than just saying it is not. All I can do in response is repeat the evidence you keep avoiding.

The evidence, again, is that nature can't always have existed for we would have happened already in the backdrop of an alleged past eternity having had an eternity to do so. So we are left with no other possibility than the uncreated Creator must exist, no matter how hard that is to wrap your puny brain around. This is the beginning of humility. And we know who the Creator is by Christ because you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs, thus admitting Jesus is God though of course not openly as you maintain the course you are on to be eternally separated from your Creator. That's like rejecting your parents even though they don't deserve it. What love is that?

Look, I know you're trying, so I'll make this part easy. Assertions are not arguments, nor are they evidence, and it's hardly "humble" to think otherwise. Nor is there any humility in claiming to know things you do not know. I will admit that I don't have knowledge of the ultimate origins of the universe. The thing is, neither do you, yet you insist you do. But placing your ignorance on an altar and calling it God is not humble. Just sayin'. You think I'm being the arrogant one here, but I'm not claiming to have all the answers to the question of existence. I am simply saying I don't believe theistic or supernatural explanations. I am open to evidence. But it has to be better than bald assertions and rhetoric.
Oh yes, I do have the knowledge of the origins of the universe, and so do you even though you shut your mind down to it, because we all have a spirit of God-consciousness, inserted into us with the knowledge nature can't start up from nothing nor always have existed; thus, there must exist the uncreated Creator. As the Bible says, simply by observing nature we know this to be true.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1.20).

Here is where you get yourself into even more trouble when you claim you don't know the origin of the universe yet are atheist anyway, claiming God does not exist, which you have no evidence, nor able to counter the evidence against and for God. Talk about assertions! Why be doubleminded about this, applying rules to people you yourself don't have to adhere to? Why not treat others as you would like to be treated?

Surely you can't deny there is such a thing as false humility? This is what you exhibit because you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs, which shouldn't be too hard a thing to do after all this time, and you can't overturn the fact if the universe always existed, then we would have had an eternity to already be what we have become. That's the problem with your eternity theory. It is illogical.

What is at the center of our discussion is that you can't overturn these basic pieces of evidence, yet still remain an atheist. You're contradicting yourself. So one can fairly conclude it is because you have the same condition as Adam at the fall: independency and disobedience to your Creator that blocks off all fellowship with Him for that place called Hell which is devoid of God's presence as you wish.

Even if, for the sake of argument, I was willing to grant your basic point that maybe there is some kind of uncreated something "outside" of nature (though you have presented no evidence at all that any realm outside of nature exists) responsible for creating the universe, you still have not gotten yourself any closer to a proof that this thing is necessarily the Christian God, and not anything else. It could be some other god, or some creative force or "prime mover" that bears no resemblance to anything any person has yet conceived. But we just don't have any evidence — period.
Again, just saying the evidence given is not evidence is not a valid retort. You have to show it rather that spout it and assert it blindly. Again, the Christian God would be the correct one, because you can't find a naturalistic origin for the disciples' beliefs. Why do you keep avoiding this? Since a God who is personal and reveals Himself is surely better than one who does not, your deistic God would fail to compare to Christ. How can God's nature be lower than ours? How can His standard be below that of His creation? You're like a mindless zombie (repeating "we just don't have any evidence") when the evidence is given, but you don't challenge it.

God affords you this choice for the full gambit of choices afforded to man made in His image with free will. If you so choose to eternally separate yourself from God by never giving your life to Christ in this life, then so be it. How truly sad for you. How you decide to respond to Christ in this life determines where you spend eternity: as Jesus said, if you are not for Him, you most certainly are against Him. You have nobody to blame but yourself. It would be like those who have to spend their lives in jail, because society has deemed it unhealthy to ever let them out to harm people ever again. In like manner, you will spend eternity in Hell, so you can do no harm to God's people in the New City and New Earth. Praise the Lord! There is no greater love.

Just about all of the "first cause" arguments for God have been put through their paces, Troy, and you haven't brought anything new to the table this time. I think you are confused at a very basic epistemological level. Start by tackling this one: demonstrate how you are able to distinguish that your God is real and not simply something you're imagining. Once you get past that one, perhaps we can then talk about this God's universe-creating techniques. Best,

Martin
The evidence speaks loud and clear, so therefore, it is really true all things sum up in Christ; now you have to tackle with the fact your imaginary universe that always existed is just a lame attempt to reject God and is entirely fantasy. Show me where you have overturned the first cause argument I have shown you and provide a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. Unless and until you do so, may you continue to lead more people to Christ by your failed attempts as they are turned off by your avoidance. You're still avoiding this, and because you do, you should question your own sanity.