Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wagner
Troy, you're still not getting it.

It's one thing to pose a God living "outside space and time" as a hypothesis. But you're going beyond the hypothetical, which means you need to provide stronger evidence for this being's existence apart from "there's no other choice". Setting aside the question of whether it is the only choice (and you have not demonstrated that either), the scientific method relies upon evidence, which is why it is not only not "unreasonable" to demand to know how this God supposedly creates universes from a realm "outside space and time," but essential to understanding what this God is that you're trying to propose at all.
You're not getting it. Think. There is no other option. That is a substantial result. You can't ask for a better proof. When all known possibilities are impossible it is what you deemed impossible that must be true. Think of it this way. You can't come up with a better proof either for the uncreated Creator. Nor can I. It's perfect.

Since nature can't always have existed nor start up from nothing, there is no other option than the uncreated Creator no matter how much that unsettles you, leading to accountability and consequences for your life and how you choose to live it. To be an atheist is to deaden your conscience further to deny this accountability so you can get off on your sin and selfishness, delusionally denying the consequence that is administered by our Creator.

That there is no other choice leaves us with no other choice, that's why you can't find any. There is nothing wrong with asking the question, How does God do it? But if no answer is forthcoming, that does not impact detrimentally on the fact that He did it, since there is no other choice. You may want to keep holding out for the possibility that one day something could prove otherwise, but is that reasonable? Let's say there was one last thing you didn't know in the universe, would you still hold out that it could show the universe always existed or that God does exist? You effectively would be claiming you would have to be God to know if God exists. That's a contradiction though since obviously, you are not God and never will be all-knowing which can only be reserved for the uncreated Creator. Besides, you still have not challenged the evidence that there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects, for if there had been, then we would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

Don't let your thinking separate you from God. Your flesh, which includes your thinking, is utterly corruptible and needs to die on the cross with Christ to receive new thinking that is clear minded and healthy for you. You are overweight because of this sin: gluttony.

We know who God is by Christ, for none can compare to Christ, and you still can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. Why still avoid this? Is that honest of you?

As it stands, you have provided no method by which anyone can determine whether or not this God you propose is real, or just something you're making up. I could just as easily, using the "logic" you're employing, make the following argument: "The universe cannot have existed eternally due to the problem of infinite regress, nor can something have come from nothing. Therefore, the only possible alternative is that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, a transcendent being outside of space and time. No other option exists, and it is unreasonable to ask questions about the nature of this being, as it exists outside of space and time."
See? It's really no different.
The proof was given which you were unable to overturn, since nature could not always exist, nor start up from nothing, so the only possibility that exists is the uncreated Creator. There is not some mysterious fourth option as yet unrevealed. That's a pipe dream. And illogical. It would violate the law of cause and effect. You're just making up infinite regress.

You are welcome to compare all possible uncreated Creators. But by doing so you are conceding the uncreated Creator exists, so the issue is not whether He exists, but who is He? Your "Great Green Arklesizure" fails the test since green is a product of nature, whereas you agreed the uncreated Creator is outsite time and space, and isn't the comical Arklesizure a comic of a Big Atom, but atoms are part of nature? Plus, your alleged deity is known by less than 1% of the population so it is inaccessible, whereas God of the Bible is accessible through Christ. Most have heard of God of the Bible. Accessible is better than inaccessible. Furthermore, Jesus proved He is God by His resurrection multiply attested in various groups settings and you still keep avoiding the burden that is on you to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. You lose anyway you go.

Comparing claims of who the uncreated Creator is is most welcome, but do come to the victorious one.

And just for future reference, before claiming any expertise on the rules of logic, check to make sure you still aren't throwing fallacies around left and right. You already had special pleading going, and now you're simply offering the argument from ignorance. "Because you do not have a naturalistic answer, God is the only alternative." Again, this is not how we determine facts about the universe. Not having an answer means not having an answer, it doesn't mean "I get to make up a magic being." This is called God of the Gaps, and it essentially demonstrates that God, conceptually, is little more than a placeholder for ignorance. Wherever we lack knowledge about how the universe actually functions, believers feel justified in spackling over that gap in knowledge with an all-purpose answer called "God". You don't seem to understand why that's epistemically incorrect.
You didn't show any special pleading specifically nor any argument from ignorance, so why special plead this? Since that which is natural can't be the cause, then it must be that which is supernatural. There is no way around it. It is not a gap. It is a fact therefore the uncreated must exist and proves it by observing nature that it can't always have existed and there is no naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. This is as good a proof as you can ask for. Your ignorance has locked you into not confronting this.

There are many things we don't know in the universe, but since the universe can't always have existed, it is unreasonble to keep asking what caused a natural event naturally without God at the helm. You don't seem to understand why your approach is epistimically incorrect. Your whole life has been one big lie, but you are so headlong into it, it will certainly take a miracle to be delivered from it. Usually what God does, not always but depending on the person, is to throw that person into some deep illness like cancer or suffer other profound tragic loss for them to have the opportunity to reconsider reality. Without it you would surely go to Hell without recourse considering your current condition. That's what cancer is one cell goes rogue and independent and replicates unnaturally. It is the same with you in your hostility to God.

Anyway, I decided to have a look at this 4-step proof of God (http://biblocality.com/forums/showth...Facts-Approach) you insist hasn't been answered. A lot of it relies on flat errors of fact (quantum physics does reveal the existence of perfectly natural non-causal events at the subatomic level—they are called quantum vacuum fluctuations) or flawed premises. Steps 1 and 2 do not prove the existence of a supernatural realm, they simply assume it, in yet another logical fallacy called begging the question; that is, the premise assumes the truth of the conclusion it is trying to prove. This 4-step "proof" is not even structured as a logical proof. It is simply another list of assertions.
We can't understand all things on the quantum level, so it seems a bit arrogant to take the most complicated things know to mankind and inject into them something happens from nothing in the backdrop of what we do know there are trillions and trillions of causes and effect in nature that is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Especially with no hard evidence something comes from nothing.

You've contradicted yourself by saying "perfectly natural-non-causal events". A non-causal event is coming into being without a cause, but when you say something "comes into being" that is itself causally linked, so it can't come into being without a cause. That's goofy! Why be a goofball? Coming from nothing is impossible (now you are arguing Don Baker's approach above) and contradicting yourself still further, because before you said you don't believe something can come from nothing: "Anyway, I personally don't hold that something came from nothing." You're a ball of contradictions, following after Satan the author of confusion. Do you think it will put more money in your pocket somehow? Nor would that be natural that that which does not exist (which is not natural) produces the natural. An 8 year old can see these simple points, not someone who is steeped in delusion. Nothing always comes from nothing. Don't be a goofball! Lame reasons to reject God are lame!

Don't just say that Step 1 & 2 don't prove the supernatural being, but show it. You must deal with the data and the argument presented to show why not. Just saying "no it's not" is not mature or a valid response. Likewise, don't just say it is not logical, but show it. Stop blowing smoke. Your assertions fail you because you can't show them by supplying some argument for them. Try to have the courtesy to deal with the information given to respond specifically.

The 4SMFA "proof" is even worse. Briefly I'll list the fallacies in each point. 1) Appeal to authority. 2) Begging the question. 3) Appeal to belief. 4) False dilemma (with a bit of Circumstantial Ad Hominem thrown in to berate anyone who disagrees for having insufficient humility). You can Google any of those if you don't know what they are.
Really, Troy, this stuff is just bad.
Here is the mistaken assumptions you are a making. It is not an appeal to authority but the reasons why most scholars concede Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2, since he died for his eyewitness testimony, the church was founded on the the resurrection, and he set up many churches revealed in the epistles, so there is certainly a foundational cornerstone for this along with so many corroborating individuals in the New Testament sharing travels, testimony and time together.

As to begging the question, appeal to belief, false dilemma, those are fancy phrases but you were unable to apply them as you tried to remain as coy and vague as possible. You would need a plausible naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. None have been forthcoming. Your response would also have to be specific and not vague. Your coyness reveals your unethicalness.

So I'm afraid that, epistemologically, you're still in a state of profound confusion. You still seem to think I am failing to counter your "evidence," but you just do not understand that your assertions are not evidence. So far — and try to pay attention to this because it's really been eluding you — all you have done is make claims and assert that there is no other possibility than that they are true. And you are calling this "evidence." Until you comprehend this very basic problem in your arguments, I'm afraid there's not much further we can go with this.

Anyway, take care. I'm off to do the show.

Martin
If you think what I said was an assertion why don't you show? Why be evasive? You would need to find a naturalistic explanation not only for the universe, but also for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. Perhaps you are taking on more than you can chew in life, following the busy buck around, not coming home to brass tax on this issue, for where is your specific response to these problems posed to you? All one can do is repeat the evidence as you keep avoiding it...

Since there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects in nature for we would have had an eternity to become what we are, we would have happened already having had an eternity to do so; therefore, the uncreated Creator is the only option. No other option exists, none are forthcoming, and it is illogical to hold out to be all knowing to know if it is true, since you could never be all knowing. And we know who God is by Jesus since you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. That leaves you dumbfounded why you still believe what you do.

PS: I'm not actually the only person who knows what BFF means. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bff
There are many abbreviations for BFF. I am not here to guess which one you are using. Like the Bible says, don't speak in tongues. Be considerate to others.