Martin Wagner - The Atheist Experience TV Show
I said, "The reason I know atheism is wrong is because obviously something can't come from nothing (that which does not exist), nor can the universe always have existed, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, there would have been an eternity to do so, so it would have happened already. Yet here we are. Therefore, since no other naturalistic explanation is forthcoming, we are left inextricably with the necessity of the uncreated Creator."
I didn't think I was being quick, but gave you the clear and solid reason that if there has been this alleged eternity of the past of cause and effects in nature (material and time), then we would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. But the uncreated Creator exists outside of time (since He is uncreated) and brings time into existence, so this problem for a past eternity of nature wouldn't apply to the uncreated Creator.Originally Posted by Martin Wagner
Furthermore, the universe can't personally relate to me because it is just a bunch of atoms bouncing around. But the uncreated Creator personally reveals Himself to me through the Son of God Christ Jesus, and that's why I am ok with it.
Indeed, your statement would be valid if God existed in nature (universe(s)), but He doesn't. Remember He exists outside of time and space of nature, so it is illogical to ask why He didn't create the universe a trillion years ago or 13.7 billion years ago. He is uncreated. We must reserve some knowledge for God that we could never know because He would be outside of time and space, infinitely greater than us, and we could never be God. This is the beginning of true humility.Creation is a causal act, so the problem of infinite regress is not solved by proposing such a being. If God had an eternity in which to create the universe, then as you say, he'd have done it long before. There's no reason he'd have waited to do it 14 billion (or 6000, depending on what kind of creationist you are) years ago.
So the very criticism you seek to undermine which you special plead, contrary to the evidence supplied, for infinite regress of the universe doesn't apply to the uncreated Creator.So the very criticism you seek to undermine a naturalistic origin of the universe with ends up flattening your God for exactly the same reason. If you are like any of the other apologists who have tried offering us this one before, I suspect you will go on to invoke a special pleading fallacy to get God off the hook.
Anyway, I personally don't hold that something came from nothing. Thanks for writing.
I am glad you don't hold something in nature or all of nature itself comes from nothing, so that means you can bypass Step 2 of the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God,
Great logicians have said which I most firmly agree once you exhaust all known possibilities, it must be that what you previously considered impossible must be true -- the uncreated Creator. This is further substantiated by the fact you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs and you can't show something lesser produces the greater such as merely bouncing atoms alone forming into sentient life. Since you can't scientifically reproduce it, you have failed in your quest. Holding out that you may one day so would be a pipe dream, even to the arrogant point of claiming there was last thing you didn't know could still prove the universe always existed. This is equivalent to saying you have to be God to know if God exists, but obviously you are not God. And it is contrary to the evidence already established if there was a eternity of the past of nature, we would have already happened by now having had an eternity to do so.
Praise the Lord for this discernment! Amen.