Re: DerrickthePinecone
http://www.youtube.com/user/DerrickthePinecone

Quote Originally Posted by DerrickthePinecone
Christians cannot be left on earth during the whole tribulation or even the first half, because we'd know the exact date of the rapture, contradicting scripture.
Where does Scripture say you can't know the day of the rapture when you come near to it for those who are spiritually discerning? My guess is Sept. 14, 2015 (feast of trumpets-the first rapture) to August 7, 2022 (day after Av 9 a Sabbath day in 2022, when the first and second temple were destroyed and when Israel fled in 135 AD) is the 2,520 days of the Tribulation. The last trumpet resurrection occurs on the first day of the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11.15) then follows the 24 months of the last trumpet when the bowls of wrath are poured. We cannot be absolutely certain when the first rapture is or even necessarily when the 7th trumpet rapture takes place, but we can know when Jesus returns in Person. It will be exactly 2,520 days (7 x 360) from the first rapture (according to readiness).

If the post-tribulationists or mid-tribulationists were correct, we would have a seven year or three & one half year notification before the rapture... Once again we see that it's not until after the last Gentile becomes a Christian that God resumes his program with the nation of Israel.
The pre-wrath resurrection and rapture and the first rapture are not mutually exclusive, since the first rapture is according to readiness, and the last trumpet resurrection and rapture is the completion (with possible gleaning raptures during the last 24 months). Why argue against posttrib and midtrib when that was not the position I put forth in our youtube discussion? To argue against me you would have to disprove that the first rapture is not conditional and overturn Matt. 24.40-41,42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10, and Rev. 12.5 in comparison to Rev. 7.9. The reason why God returns to His old covenant promise with Israel is because He doesn't break His promise! Israel will be the center of all nations but first must go through Jacob's trouble. The Holy Spirit has the power to save people during the Tribulation. Satan knows his time is short because of the first rapture. The first rapture is the Church reaching its pinnacle with a few overcomer believers (approximately 1/7th of the Church alive at the time).

Another reason: We don't know the day of the rapture. We will not know the date, but we are told to watch & know the general time of the end. There's no warning for the rapture, as you know.
Sure there is a warning, for when the fig tree is showing its leaves it won't be more than one jubilee till the commencement of Daniel's last seven. There is the sign in heaven (Matt. 24.30)--the planets of our solar system formed the shape of a cross in 1999. There are 17,640 days from June 7, 1967 when Israel took over Jerusalem, to Sept. 23, 2015, the Day of Atonement which ushers in the 50th year, the year of Jubilee. There is the Total Lunar Tetrad 2014/15 that falls on Passover and Feast of Tabernacles, and the last time that occurred was 1949/50 (Israel became a nation again), 1967/68 (Israel entered Jerusalem). This is the 8th time it will happen since Christ (8 is the number for the millennial kingdom). There are several other indicators such as the 3rd Temple completed within the first year of the Tribulation (we have yet to see this take place yet). There is the Malachy prophecy and two Jewish prophecies (about the second rebuilding of a synagogue March 15, 2010 and the Jewish prophecy of Jubilees pointing to 1917, 1967 and 2015/17). Let us be watchful and prayerful because we do not know the day or the hour doesn't mean we will always not know. Some can know who are spiritually discerning. But for most they will not know so they need to be watchful and prayerful to be accounted worthy to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world.

However, Dan 9:27 tells us that the 2nd coming is seven years AFTER the Antichrist makes his covenant with Israel & 3-1/2 yrs after he breaks the covenant. Anthr reason: The fulness of the Gentiles! After discussing the analogy of the good olive tree & the wild olive tree, Paul reveals the mystery in Rom 11:25-26, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved." Of course there're some Jews mixed in, for there's no difference within the present Church. Thus the filling of the Church must be completed prior to rebuilding of the temple, which is prior to the midpoint of the tribulation (Dan 9:27 & 2Thess2:4).
In these verses there is nothing that stipulates the whole church has to be raptured before the Tribulation. The fullness of the Gentiles is inclusive of the first rapture, the martyred saints during the Tribulation who are raptured 3.5 days after they go to rest, then the 7th trumpet rapture and resurrection and any gleanings during the 24 months, even possibly raptures to the 1290th day (judgment) and to the 1335th day (setting up Israel as the center of all nations). We should not rule this out unless valid reason is given.

Once God is through calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles, He'll return His attention back to Israel, rebuildng the temple. Prior to this, the believers in this age must be removed from the scene, being caught up into heaven.
The 3rd Temple begins construction prior to the start of the Tribulation and is completed with 2300 days left to the Tribulation. When Jesus returns in Person He makes any necessary adjustments for the Temple to suit His dwelling there.

Another reason: The tabernacle of David: Referring to Peter's visit to the house of Cornelius, James sd, "God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. & to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, & will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down..." (Acts 15:14-16). After what? After God takes out of the Gentiles "a people for his name" (Christians).
This taking out is not the same as rapture, for nobody was raptured at that point. It is referring to salvation for Gentiles taken out of the world, no longer belonging to the world. As to time line this fits perfectly with a first rapture according to readiness, then through the Tribulation more being saved and the Temple being completed, then when Jesus returns in Person He makes any necessary adjustments to the Temple for His dwelling. This is the fullness of the Gentiles.

Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8 that if anyone "preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Thus we know that this present predominantly Gentile church must be removed to allow the worldwide preaching of the gospel of the kingdom that Paul did not preach to us.
The gospel of of the kingdom is a gospel of judgment upon the nations that emphasizes judgment, it is not mutually exclusive of the gospel of salvation for the salvation of souls during tribulation the great (the past 20 centuries) the during the Tribulation (Daniel's last seven). How strange those during the Tribulation could not be saved or that there was no rapture for them like there is for the Two Witnesses, Enoch and Elijah.

Another reason: Jesus sd in Matt 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; & then shall the end come." The gospel of the kingdom was "...Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt 4:17). But, Paul preached the gospel of grace which is: Jesus Christ, the Son of God, freely gave His life as a sacrifice for our sins. He was crucified, buried, & rose from the dead on the third day (1 Cor 15:1-4).
The gospel of the kingdom is gospel of salvation. You can't divorce the two. For 2000 years the kingdom at hand has been with us and in us who are saved. The phrase gospel of the kingdom is just emphasizing a different viewpoint of the gospel of salvation: that is, the millennial reign of Christ with His overcomers when He returns we have a foretaste of now.

My friend, pre-trib makes more sense. There are many reasons why the true Christians of this dispensation cannot be on the earth during the tribulation! One has to understand the language that was being used during that time. There are many reasons why there will be a pre-trib rapture, my friend. One reason is because Israel is the focus of the end times, not the present church: During the Church age there are three classes of people: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church (1 Cor. 10:32)... Within the Church, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. During the tribulation however, God's focus will be on the nation of Israel. God will deal with Israel as Gabriel said in Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks (of years) are determined upon thy people..." That is, Daniel's people, Israel.
There are no reasons to think the whole Church is raptured before the Tribulation though many reasons to show why not, for only those who keep the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10). Don't create a legalism: you've made a rule for yourself that says God can't treat both the Church and Israel at the same time. You have avoided dealing with the proof texts of Matt. 24.40-41,42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 an Rev. 12.5 along with 7.9). Study this: http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_7.htm

The danger you face is that when a couple million are raptured at the first rapture before the commencement of the Tribulation, you will accuse the brethren day and night according Rev. 12.10, because you assumed pridefully if it was the Tribulation you would have been received up as well and did not have to go through the time of testing because you were still like a balloon tied down to the world or lying on a bed of fornication. Many Christians still love the world. Who is to say then whether you will take the mark of the beast or even have the discernment to know what it is since you couldn't even recognize you were in the Tribulation when it is occuring? I would not want to be in your shoes.

As discussed under the amillennial topic, the first 69 weeks have passed and one remains. In Revelation chapter 7, the 144,000 are all chosen from the people of Israel, and their tribes are listed... In 11:7-8 the 2 witnesses are martyred in Jerusalem. In Rev 12:6, the woman that flees into the wilderness for 1260 days represents Israel in the great tribulation. These are just a few reasons we know Israel is at the center of God's plan. The present, predominantly Gentile church & the doctrines concerning it were a mystery unknown to the Jews throughout the first 69 weeks. We therefore must be removed prior to the beginning of 70th week, which is determined upon nation of Israel (Dan. 9:24)
Israel is at the center of God's plan to be the center of all nation. There is no reason why the Church has to be removed because of Israel's blindness. The reason why some are received up is because they are ready; whereas those who are not though saved must pass through the time of testing. The burden of the proof still remains on you. You must prove your claim, yet still have not presented any challenge to Matt. 24.40-41,42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 and 12.5 with 7.9.

I have several dozen more reasons why the whole church is not raptured before the Tribulatio, but only a small remnant shall be who overcometh and who are alive at the time of the start of the Tribulation (possibly including martyrs from the past 20 centuries as well). Amen.

For many more reasons why the whole church can't be raptured before the Tribulation: http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm