re: chaos pet - Ryan Lake
http://www.blogger.com/profile/07811612076302931506

Ryan writes,
http://americanloons.blogspot.com/20...oy-brooks.html

Quote Originally Posted by chaospet
The guy behind the infamous “4 step perfect proof for God of the Bible”. The argument is according to Brooks completely deductive (a word he doesn’t understand) and relies on no unquestionable assumptions. It is really quite interesting why he doesn’t do a better job of it – if you allow his hilarious fallacies to count as logically valid deductions, I suppose it would be relatively easy to prove the existence of God from any unquestionable assumptions, not only his dubious ones (the system needed would hardly be sound, but that is another matter). Among his “uncontroversial” assumptions are e.g. that evolution cannot be the whole story since it doesn’t account for “the spiritual and soulical” and “Even the unsaved exhibit an improvement in conscience, but since they reject Christ for their salvation which is an eternal choice, they are condemned to Hell for all eternity and permanently separated from God. They won't change their mind later after they are resurrected.” But enough; read it for yourself – every sentence in this proof is a worthwhile quote:

(notice also the change of goalposts from proving that God exists to challenging atheists to disprove the God of the Bible in step 3).

Here is the gist [this is the first paragraph of the “proof”]: “God said He proves Himself by observing nature. Let's see if He is right. 1) Something can't come from that which does not exist, so the universe requires a cause [yes, he assumes the cosmological argument]. 2) The universe can't always have existed because a) heat death would be far greater than it is, and b) mankind would have approximated into that alleged past eternity and not still be sinning to the extent it still does along the exponential progression of conscience we are clearly on. What other option is there than the uncaused (uncreated) created? [yes, his proof really assumes that argument from ignorance is a valid inference method]. Atheism is utterly destroyed and morally [?] bankrupt because it has no answer and never will. You would have to be God (having omniscience) to know if God exists when you hold out having to know all things to be sure. You are saying you won't accept proof of God unless you are God. Wow!”

Basically the argument is “we are continuously improving morally (we are morally better now than we were 5000 years ago, say); since we aren’t perfect yet, the universe must have existed for a finite amount of time; therefore: The Biblical God.” [yes, an implicit premise is "if the universe has existed infinitely, then humans must have as well].

It is discussed here. Don’t miss Brooks himself showing up in the comment section!
Re: female student with an interest in philosophy - ess bee
http://www.blogger.com/profile/02819092244506504163

Quote Originally Posted by ess bee
Some of my personal favorite lines:

"IF ALIENS brought us here, you have to ask what caused them since they did not create themselves."

Good he's taking the possibility that we may have been deserted on Earth by aliens, like a grown-up who doesn't approve of a child's new pet dumping it in some distant field. But if we have to ask what caused the aliens, don't we similarly have to ask what caused god? *yawn* these arguments get so boring, even when you introduce aliens into them!

"Many skeptical scholars concede certain facts. Prophecies fulfilled are mathematically impossible unless Jesus is God."

The word 'prophecies' links to another page on his site, where Brooks tells us that there are nearly 2,000 prophecies in the bible that mostly have been fulfilled. But the examples he gives from the bible as 'prophecy' are from the old testament about things which happen (400 years later) in the new testament. Mostly about Jesus being killed and then resurrected. It's these very claims that atheists deny, so using them to prove prophecy has come true is just circular silliness.

Ack! I can't take any more! There is definitely a perfect proof of SOMETHING here, namely Brooks' idiocy. This argument has to win the logical fallacy grand prize or something; there were so many fallacies my internal stupidity-sensor short circuited!
No we don't ask what caused God, because what we have proven is the uncreated exists, so that the God of the Bible meets this requirement in addition to the fact none can compare to Christ by the proof of His resurrection using the Minimal Facts Approach. Additionally, aliens would be in nature and nature always needs a cause, but that which is uncreated is outside of nature. Is it logical to ask what caused the uncaused? That's a contradiction.

Almost all skeptical scholars concede Jesus died on the cross because of the overwhelming preponderance of evidence, nobody is more well documented in antiquity than was Jesus; nobody in the first two centuries I am aware of made a claim He didn't die on the cross. This prophecy was fulfilled among hundreds of others regarding his life. The return of Israel (1948) after a long while away is also prominent.

These points answer ess bee's misunderstandings.

As to Chaospet's issues, realize his misunderstandings too. Our soul has the functions of mind, will and emotion. These attributes provide us self-consciousness. How can that (just bouncing elements) which has no self-consciousness produce that which does. The lesser can't produce the greater. Likewise, our spirit which has the functions of intuition, communion and conscience (of God-consciousness) require that which has these attributes to produce them. The elemental table alone can't do that. There are not enough interatomic interactions nor the number of atoms in the universe for that to occur if it could.

The cosmological argument commonly touted is not being used here. Rather the approach is to observe trillions of causes in nature to use this as overwhelming evidence that that which is in nature always needs a cause. Therefore, the universe needs a cause; and how silly it is to think that which does not exist somehow can cause that or make something come into being. The former doesn't exist. Nothing always comes from nothing for it doesn't exist! Hello mcfly!

There is no ignorance in stating the fact we observe readily the exponential progression of conscience, and that if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects we would not still be sinning to the extent we still do.

The proof explicitly states that it is not arguing for human beings to have always existed if atheists are right, but that we would have approximated in the nearness to that past eternity. In Grade 10 you are taught in calculus class that anything approximating to eternity is effectively deemed as having existed for eternity. Really what's the difference between 10 trillion years ^ 10,000,000 and infinity. For our purposes and the proof of God they are the same. God does not require you to be a rocket scientist in order to understand properly basic beliefs.

And remember, if you have to know all things to know if God exists, then you are claiming you have to be God to know if God exists. That's arrogance, pointing to self as the center of all things and is a spirit of eternal separation from God.