Co-founder of christianforums

[Josephus]

Greetings.

I noticed your post on the Christian Forums entry at Wikipedia. I'm not sure who it was, but they left a link to this message board in their post in the discussion tab.

My name is Ryan Swift, aka Josephus, and I co-founded the new Christian Forums with Erwin Loh in 2001-2002. I stepped down several months later once it starting picking up steam as God has led me to other ministries and opportunites.

I retired from general message board ministry then, but I do like to check up every now and then on "my baby" to see how things are going there. It's grown a lot since I left, but it was exactly what God told me would happen if I merged the King's Tavern with Erwin's board. It has grown to be the largest Christian community on the internet, and the vision is still for Christian unity.

I would like to speak with you over email. It would be appropriate, because I do not feel comfortable addressing your issues with the current leadership in a public setting. I have a great respect for Erwin, as he has done a fantastic job keeping the thing running, so please expect nothing less from me.

If anything, I ask for your prayers for Christian Forums, so please don't misjudge its mission as it started with the vision of God to unify the body of Christ online, and it has his obvious blessing as the results are that several hundred thousand people have been touched by Christian fellowship in some form or another, and it continues to grow.

Please email me at ryanfreedom@gmail.com. I'd like to discuss your views.

Ryan Swift (Josephus)

[Churchwork]

Welcome!

I would rather not comment on the Holy Spirit merging your forums; only that what has become is not right.

These are the mistakes made by Erwin Loh (they are no small errors),

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/www.c...forums.com.htm

This is the link which I posted. Did you remove it? I had to post it again.

Simply stated, experimentally, you will find censoring against those who can expose the sin in historicalism (includes post-trib only rapture of the church), calvinism and not accepting apostles appoint elders to take care of Biblical localities (without a heirarchy above this), as well as the other items mentioned.

What Erwin is said to be trying to do is backfiring on him because he is unwilling to take a stand on these matters of truth. His forum on whole is fighting against them. Consequently, he promotes division of tares with the wheat, and slowly eradicating wheat, but what will God do to the tares in the outward appearance of the kingdom? Mere communication alone is not the touchstone. Erwin needs himself to actually stand on the truth. The Nicene Creed does not specifically address the untruths in Erwin's heart. And God says we shall know them by their fruit. I am not saying all calvinists and historicalists are unsaved, but certainly the bulk of them are.

If you would like to ask me something, click on my profile and send an email or pm, but I would prefer to be an open book for the Lord and continue the discussion here on the forum. :)

[Josephus]

I will respond via email regarding Erwin. Regarding what you believe, I'd be very much interested in what you'd like to talk to me about. I'm a messiannic Christian.

[Churchwork]

Josephus,

Why did you think there was something I wanted to talk to you about?

If you need help with your open theism or messianic Christianity, the best way I know how to help you is to speak plainly by saying God has infinite foreknowledge. He is all-knowing. This renders your belief wrong when you say in email you are a partial open theist. How can a Christian not accept God's infinite foreknowledge? God does not allow for various opinions of His foreknowledge in His Spirit. You either believe He is all-knowing or you do not.

The Messiah has already arrived and died on the cross, so to say Messianic Christian in this sense would be an oxymoron. We should never divide the body of Christ with such terminology. The only means by which to divide the body is according to Biblical locality.

[Josephus]

How can a Christian not accept God's infinite foreknowledge?

Because one's belief about it is not what saves someone.

God does not allow for various opinions of His foreknowledge in His Spirit.

Well, I personally wouldn't go that far to say that God does not allow opinions on His foreknowledge, as certainly lots of people have different opinons. Unless of course, you believe one's belief about it is what saves them.

You either believe He is all-knowing or you do not.

I agree!

The Messiah has already arrived and died on the cross, so to say Messianic Christian in this sense would be an oxymoron.

In grammatical terms yes, you are correct. But I assumed you might now, at least doctrinally, what a messiannic Christian believes, and therefore you'd be able to identify me that way, and so add info to our conversation ahead of time (before I've finished reading your link), and started asking you questions.

It's quite refreshing to find a place where one can just say that they love God and love people, and are just "Christian". Thanks for letting me post here.

[Churchwork]

Because one's belief about it is not what saves someone.

This is not a justification to sin by rejecting God's foreknowledge. On the contrary, it is a symptom that possibly the person never did believe in Jesus to begin with, since to reject God's infinite foreknowledge is rejecting God's all-knowing. God never said He is not all-knowing, you did.

I can see how you and Erwin Loh got divided since as much as it is believed that Erwin is not saved for his calvinism and historicalism, false teachings not of God, your position is even worse and even does not agree with these ideas.

Well, I personally wouldn't go that far to say that God does not allow opinions on His foreknowledge, as certainly lots of people have different opinons. Unless of course, you believe one's belief about it is what saves them.

God's truth is absolute. Thus, He doesn't allow for Christians to believe different levels of His foreknowledge without there be consequences. And if this is true of Christians, how much more would it be true of those who don't believe in God's foreknowledge because they are not really born-again! Since the Word does not suggest in any way God's foreknowledge is not infinite, this false belief is a symptom of unsalvation.

I agree!

No you do not, since you are picking your own version and imposing your own opinion of God of what He can foreknow, when you have no basis in the Scriptures to believe what you do.

In grammatical terms yes, you are correct. But I assumed you might now, at least doctrinally, what a messiannic Christian believes, and therefore you'd be able to identify me that way, and so add info to our conversation ahead of time (before I've finished reading your link), and started asking you questions.

Not merely grammatical terms! But in the truest sense of the word, for Jesus has IN FACT already died on the cross as the Messiah. Thus, you would be dividing the body of Christ falsely. Because no Christian is messianic, since Christ already returned, I could not identify you as a Christian, but only one who claims he is messianic despite the fact that Christ has already returned.

As you know open theists are not welcome on Christian forums because they aim to deceive denying God's infinite foreknowledge, and for this you are banned because you have no intention of repenting. If you still need to ask me questions, you can email me.

It's quite refreshing to find a place where one can just say that they love God and love people, and are just "Christian". Thanks for letting me post here.

Yet, you do not say this for you say you are Messianic, yet Christ has already returned. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Why divide falsely as though some Christians would not be Messianic, which in fact they are not, since Christ has already returned. This is your pride of life. Your words are wrong before God. And it is true most open theists are not born-again. Your banning here is part of cleaning up the house of God to make sure the tares are an adequate distance.

[Josephus]

For me, being a Christian all comes down to agape. Unconditional love. Of-God-only love. The true test of a believer is whether or not the spirit of agape is in them as evidenced by their fruit: are they loving others as God loves them? Since only God can give someone his perspective about another person, then all else follows: if one has agape, then that person has God. That person has then has access to truth, which leads them to the word of God.

The only thing I disagree with about your 33 questions is more of a principle really. You seem to be requiring particular revelations of knowledge as a rule for being included in a group that will change the world. You must know that if such a group came together, that those revelations of knowledge would ultimate come to define those that follow those 12 fully. This sounds more like what other groups do when they rely on "special revelation" for being included in their groups too. It just sounds a little freaky, and a bit gnostic.

To be honest though, I find your mission commendable, because the church needs a unifying doctrine, in short, they need the Holy Spirit because if all churches listened to the Holy Spirit about their doctrine, then all would in fact come into agreement, even in special revelation.

But your mission seems to be lacking in the example Jesus laid out when he planned the foundations of his church. He found 12 people because he simply invited them. He didn't run them through a questionnaire, and he certainly didn't find those who already had special revelation before inviting them to follow him (except for maybe Simon when he realized the messiah is God when Jesus called him "studying under the fig tree"). Even Jesus selected one would ultimately betray him, but he trusted him enough to make him keeper of the money bag.

I believe God can do the same in these last days, and that it won't be dependent on a program or ruleset, but on the command of Jesus: that "this is how the world will know you are my dicisples: that you love one another."

Love God, love people. That IS the mission. All else follows.

Personally, I think you need to understand more of the Hebrew roots of your faith and so understand the mindset that best grasps the very scriptures you are using to justify certain positions, before continuing in your mission. It would help prevent confusion, and ultimately, prevent the labeling of your group as gnostical. I mean this in all love.

[Churchwork]

Josephus,

I unbanned you after our talk because you seemed to be repentant, but as you know each time you seemed to have repented, not five minutes later you bring up the same beliefs you had which you just earlier repented of. This is not right. It means you are in your head and flighty. One minute you believe something (thinking God does not have infinite foreknowledge), the next minute you change your mind (God has infinite foreknowledge). You overassumed one thing, then overassumed another, then back again. This is not like a rock with foundation. I don't think you are ever going to change (as that seems to bear out), and we can't have a forum where you continue to deceive people on this basis as your point of pride.

I believe you are being negatively influenced by judaism, which is not to say the faith of the Jews in the OT of God of the Bible since that faith continues to cross. I could not believe it, after we destroyed that argument (open theism), still you could not let go. Your flesh is clinging to something, and you must admit I said some things most effective to you to cause you to have a change of mind, but yet you come right around and cling to your old beliefs even after seemingly truly repenting of them. Do you want to be delivered or not? Your heart doesn't really seem into it. Don't talk about it because that will just excite your headiness further as you always come back to open theism, but tackle this beast once and for all. Decide one way or the other by letting Jesus show you the way. If I can know unequivically in my spirit God has infinite foreknowledge, so can you.

Be careful to distinguish agape from God and self-proclaimed agape of those in the world who reject Christ. While agape is a fruit of the Spirit, the spirit still needs to be quickened by God's Spirit first. First the spirit is regenerated, then the manifestation of fruit such as love are shown forth, not the other way around. This then is true love. Just as the ignoble can not save, neither can the gnoble. Just as the base can not save, nor can the high. Just as the sin nature can not choose Christ, nor can the good self.

You said there is only one thing you disagree with in the 33 questions, but then why does your profile still read "not sure" and "no" about so many things? Please abide in the Board Etiquette of the forum, particularly the 4th item under Board Etiquette. Make note I do have to ban on this basis: if a person continues to speak contrary to the 17 questions in his profile. We do not want to be doubletongued. We should say we agree to something, yet answer in disagreement.

http://biblocality.com/forums/rules.php

What God reveals in the Word is not a hard yoke to follow, and certain basic things should be the minimum requirement, such as these 17 questions for elders, and at least these 33 questions for apostles. After all, apostles have direct commission from God and not speak contary to these truths. Since all these items do not disagree with the Word and in fact, are directly found in the Word, then these are not special revelations, but actual truths that God's children ought not to deny.

Except for the last question (which the 12 can consider tweaking, but in principle its truth remains), all the questions are backed by the Word of God. This may sound "freaky" and "gnostic" to you, but is agreeing to the Word freaky and gnostic? Or is it freaky and gnostic to call oneself an apostle yet disagree with some of these truths? You can get into serious trouble Josephus when you accuse vaguely and unspecifically, which is on the order of passivity. Remember too, these questions are not for the church, but for the workers (informal apostles). Though the church may disagree on many things in a Biblical locality, the apostles will have an authority that exceeds such dissension because they were commissioned directly by God.

So what is your sin? Your sin is to accuse the Word of God of being "special revelation". This is wrong and you should repent of this accusation for it does not come from God when you accuse like this. In fact, such an accusation is not agape. Yet before you claimed to believe in agape love, but you do not show it in practice with such accusation. Remember, Satan is the great accuser, and you must do all you can to rely on God not to emulate the false accuser.

Just as the 12 apostles set a foundation, so to will the 12 set a foundation for the rest of the apostles in agreement to also receive commission from God in which they would agree to the same truths.

So do not accuse like that great accuser saying "sounds like what other groups do". This is wrong, since other groups do not do this. Do other groups believe in Biblical locality? No. Do other groups believe in partial rapture? No. Do other groups believe in osas arminian? No. Do other groups believe in restoration of creation in the 6 summary days? No. Do other groups believe in our being tripartite? No. All of this points to Biblical locality, which other groups do not believe in. God's group is that of the apostles appointing elders to take care of Biblical localities, and for this boundary not to be exceeded. How sweet and simple. No sacredotalism of the pastoral - one pastor or 10 pastor - system.

Surely there can be new words of God today and special revelation for the church as we have more understanding of the secretive seals. However, they shall not be fully revealed until the little book is opened in Rev. 10 when the second half of the book is opened. The first half was opened in Rev. 5 when Christ died on the cross and was taken up.

Please observe your own contradiction. People speak in doubletalk too much! You said "even in special revelation" is acceptable, but contradict yourself saying "other groups do when they rely on special revelation". Know what your mistake is. You ASSUMED their revelation is special and of God. Why overassume this? I encourage you not to speak in vagaries, but be specific in your allegations, otherwise such accusations are of self.

Because you are messianic jew into messianic judaism, naturally you are possessed by this mindset and skew things into judaism, but we should never judaize Christianity. Judaism reject Jesus Christ. The Messiah has already come. So your terms are most inappropriate for the body of Christ! And which divide the body falsely. There is no excuse for this.

You spoke some truth, "To be hoest though, I find your mission commendable," but then as usual, you turn right around as the accuser, "But your mission seems to be lacking." This is again, contradictory. People who are doubletalkers do not belong on this forum, because their flesh is too strong, always pointing back to self in some argument of self- exaltation which is against the rules of this forum: to love one another and treat others as you would like to be treated. Would you like others to doublespeak to you? Of course not. You must want nothing for yourself, only then will you let go of your doubletongue.

When you accuse "lacking the example Jesus laid out," notice your acusation is without basis since your reasoning is as follows: by "special revelation" "through a questionnaire". But as shown above, these questions are not by special revelation, so do you see your mistake in accusing the questions as being by special revelation? This is wrong of you and the sin of bearing false witness. If these are special revelations, then you need to show it that the proofs for these questions in the Scriptures are unsubstantiated which I provide through my webpages. This you have not done. God deals in specifics; Satan accuses vaguely and so do his pawns and the tares.

We have had almost 2000 years to have these truths in our hearts. The apostolic age has ended, those beginning days of the apostles in the first century which they needed to grow in the faith and complete the Word of God through to 95/96 A.D. when John completed the book of Revelation. There were disputes as there was every century, but the Word of God is solidified in the 66 books, and there is much less excuse now then before about what the Word is saying because we have more information to work with after 20 centuries. We should be much clearer on a great many things such as these 33 questions. This is your answer, and progress is at hand.

Come out of your vagaries and learn to deal specifically. I can't emphasize this enough. Even you said this is part of your problem.

The questionniare is not choose apostles, for the apostles are already chosen by God. Jesus challenged them with questions, but these questions are for the purpose of giving assurance to members of the body of Christ of the apostles having authority to do the Work in the Church, that they are in fact commissioned by God. What foundation! Praise God!

When Jesus chose the elders, it was stronger than an invitation, because He knew they would accept His calling. Why? Because He has infinite foreknowledge, something you struggle with to accept in your faith. I would reject your idea that Jesus merely "invited" them. If this was true, then some of them would say "no," just as many disciples walked away when Jesus said to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood; just as you say "no" or "not sure" to many of the 17 questions (at the time of this posting). I have yet to see you put forth even one possible reason for your rejection of these truths. Ergo, you know at your center is self that shows disagreement, and again, this is without the love of the Lord (agape).

In your closing words by phone, when I urged you to consider if God has called you to be one of the 12, vividly I sensed your reaction a great wall of divide that you put up that this could never be for you. It was palpable. If you are Christian, you would have never discounted this possibility for God can move mountains which believers know intimately.

When Jesus chose the 12 it is because He knew they would come, even Judas, even though Judas was not to be saved. Jesus did not trust Judas, but foreknew what Judas would do. Again, this foreknowing is something you reject about the God of Christians in your open theism. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit I refuse and reject your words, "he trusted him enough to make him the keepr of the money bag". I find this to be an utterly evil statement from you, for God does not trust evil. Judas is called the devil, the son of Perdition.

While you consider God's loving Word merely a "program or ruleset" by accusing as Satan would these questions which give us confidence in he apostles, your opinion is not in keeping with the words of Jesus that "this is how the world will know you are my dicisples: that you love one another." Love does not flow from rejecting the Word of God, accusing His Word as special revelation, being doubletongued saying you agree with these truths, then in your profile, still disagreeing with them.

Something is wrong with you Josephus that you would not accept the authority of the apostles who have direct commission from God and would not reject these 33 questions. May I say something very vital. When I am with you over the phone and especially in person, you find that I convince you in our discussion, but then, not but a few minutes later your flesh is let loose again and remains unchecked if I do not speak what you said was wrong quickly to keep it in check. I can' always be next to you; you have to stand on the truth without other Christians present.

It gets quite old to keep hearing you say love God, love his people, love this, love that; but as we have seen above, your claim on love does not mesh with your actual behavior which is not loving. One thing comes out of your mouth (claiming love), and quite the opposite comes out of your mouth again that contradicts the first thing. God is lovingly specific. You have not been. You have no reason to believe some unloving things you believe.

It is understandable, since you are a "messianic Jew", you will push forth for reading Hebrew and learning this language, but God does not need this from His children, certainly not as much as you think. The Bible is in English for those whose tongue is English. We do not seek to reinterpret the Word of God as Christians, but stay true the preservation of the Word.

The "mindset" you purport is not Judaism to "so understand the mindset that best grasps the very scriptures". Don't you know the mindset to understand God's Word is not Judaism which rejects Christ, but the mind of God which is His Holy Spirit. Sometimes this includes checking various references (aramaic, hebrew, greek), other times it involves simply reading and praying on the Word and trusting in the passage.

The Holy Spirit has revealed to me in no uncertain terms, your point of pride is being a Jew, and God never intended this. It is like you are lost in this void of black space between Judaism which rejects Christ and Christianity which accepts Christ: the true Jew is one who accepts Christ.

One of your mistakes in misreading the Hebrew is in the matter of the restoration of creation in the 6 summary days. The word used for "made" is "to restore" in Hebrew spoken of in these summary days. Yet, you claim this is creation. Genesis 1.2 starts with "And," which does give more detail to Gen. 1.1, but starts a following event, something that happens, "became", the same word used in Gen. 2.7, 19.28. You are taking your Hebrew roots as a point of pride to alter God's Word, misreading your own Hebrew language usage. Is this a sin? I think so. For it is clearly wrong. The word used for creation in Gen. 1.1 is not the same used for restoraton in the 6 summary days. You should appreciate this, just as you should appreciate why God made the earth desolate, a waste and without form in Gen. 1.2; because of the sin of the inhabitants of earth's earlest ages wherein Lucifer fell, reigned as San with his fallen angels over the demons. Then, in Gen. 1.2 God made desolate, and only day 2 was not considered a good day because when the firmaments were split up came some of those demons that were cast into the deep at Gen. 1.2. One of those demons went into the serpent. Notice in our discussions by phone you could not come up with a legitimate explanation why day 2 was not a good day under your scenario. Specifics will show you the truth. Generalities will often deceive. This is an excellent example, that the problem is not studying Hebrew more, but your not accepting the Holy Spirit's teaching in your spirit. The cause of this pride is is in the pride of being Jewish which you need to be delivered from so that you are no longer a Messianic Jew believing in Messianic Judaism, trying to divide the body of Christ on this basis. This is a really big problem this sin of just because Israel was the chosen nation, there is this authority in them, even though they now reject Christ. I think this is abuse of being Jewish. Christ has already come on the cross, and He is not the coming Messiah, but the returning Christ. Judaism is a cult. The nation of Israel will receive her covenant promise but only as a small remnant nation as the center of all nations when Christ returns, not before. We need to appreciate this to show how small the remnant will be which will then humble anyone's efforts to divide the body by saying they are a messianic jew into messianic judaism yet call themselves Christian.

Your commentary is not healthy for this forum for all these reasons above. Unless you show forth some repentance from what you really believe, further discussion is just you arguing in your headiness. The best thing I can do for you is to ban you to curtail your excited flesh. I care not for keeping the forum active with such discussions that never go anywhere. I care about you that you would actually be born-again and enter into the new creation, and if you are, to overcome in Christ to receive the reward of reigning with Christ instead of loss of rewards. My prayers go out to you.

I understand you flesh wants this commission mission from God to stop as you say "before continuing in your mission," but it will not. I would like to place something out to you for your consideration. Based on some things you said, you sounded like you were also disagreeing with your wife too about some of these matters as you noted she and I agreed with, but that you had trouble accepting. Did you recall this? I could not help but wonder if your battle with me is in part a battle with her.

Since there is no confusion per se, why then accuse of "prevent confusion". Again, what are you lacking in this statement? It is specifics. Rarely do you deal in specifics. What confusion? You don't say. I know Satan is the author of confusion and I would not it past him to accuse people of his own sin. And why accuse of gnostic? This labelling you throw out unconsciously is the sin of bearing false witness. I know what you are trying to do, by using this word, to imply supposedly headiness, but where can you make your case? You don't even try to, but just self-declare it, which is not loving, but selfish because it comes from your center, and not centered on God.

On the contrary, we can see that you are gnostic in a couple of ways (using your false definition of the word "gnostic", similar to your misuse of the phrase "open theism", when you fail to recognize the error in this teaching is denying God's infinite foreknowledge): denying the restoration of creation, accusing God's Word as being special revelation. The reason we have the blood of Christ is because we will even be accused of the truth. All God's Word is revelation for none of His word can be understood in your head; first your spirit must be touched, then your soul can accept the truth. Only those who have His Spirit can understand these spiritual truths in His Word (1 Cor. 2.13 RSV).

If you would like to understand what gnosticism really is, read here very simply, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/lostbooks.htm

Also read what it says about Ebionites. I think in part, you have both these problems of ebionites and gnostics. This is why you divide the body of Christ falsely calling yourself a Messianic Jew into Messianic Judaism. Praise God, the gospel is given to all, not skewed to Judaism that rejects Christ and messianics who do not appreciate the meaning of the Messiah that the believing Jews in the OT were waiting for His coming. Now that He has already come, don't be couth and cunning with your words by saying you are a non-believer involved in Messianic Judaism (the coming god). The Messiah has died on the cross already; a Judaistic Christian is an oxymoron since Judaism rejects Christ. In a sense you are rejecting Christ also by worshipping the Messiah which means He has not yet come.

It would help for you to see how Christians view things...

Dictionary:
1. the promised and expected deliverer of the Jewish people.

[Jesus already came to deliver the Jewish people, whom rejected Him; this is why now the true Jew is the Christian. Judaism rejects Jesus Christ the expected deliver, so therefore, He is no longer their deliverer as the coming Messiah, since they had reject Him. Nonetheless, He shall keep His promise to save a remnant when He steps down on the mount of olives].

2. Jesus Christ, regarded by Christians as fulfilling this promise and expectation. John 4:25, 26. [only to be used in this context, not day to day usage of calling oneself a Messianic].

"The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he]." [He has already fulfilled the prophecy of the Messiah]

3. expected deliverer.

I tell you this all with love. In kind, you should repent. This is not a forum that will cater to your flesh on these matters, so you are banned. We seek here authority and submission in the church as we wait upon the 12 apostles to reveal themselves. Thus, we must curtail the dissension here, according to God's good pleasure, especially from lack of humility in messianic judaism, which could never agree.

[Churchwork]

It appears christianforums.com has turned from being 50+% run by Roman Church administrators under Erwin Loh to new ownership under Lee Dodd where speaking against the 5 false teachings of calvinism is disallowed (though it is not specifically written in their rules).

Erwin Loh was like Augustine and the Roman Church which developed into Lee Dodd and the Calvinists. Augustine was a calvinist, whereas the Roman Church was non-OSAS arminian.

Same old mistakes are being made. When you read Dave Hunt's, What Love is This? you see how and why these strange transformation took place.