You Need to Be Regenerated Before You Can Be Born-Again?

**Churchwork** · 01-18-2010, 05:36 PM

Re: http://www.youtube.com/user/MODERATECALVINISM

Originally Posted by MODERATECALVINISM

I agree God has provided grace for all. Arminians call it common grace. However nowhere does the scriptures teach that common grace eradicates total depravity. That is done through regeneration. If it were not done by regeneration, then then would be no reason to be born again after you believe

First you must establish Total depravity even exists that man can't respond or according to most Calvinists, that God's grace either common or special grace of gospel are insufficient, making him unable to respond unless their god regenerates man first. Hence, a person can respond to God's sufficient grace, so if a person is willing to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, they are forgiven, their sins washed away and given eternal life. God never as you say regenerates the person first. Jacob Arminius did not believe in Total depravity. He believed we had free will and human ability to respond to God because God gave us sufficient grace to be able to do so. We did not have to be regenerated first for man was fallen not Totally depraved. Man is made in God's image, able to respond to God's grace and therefore, not Totally depraved. A dead man can respond to the Gospel and ought to because his spirit is dead to God.

Arminians call God's grace inclusive for all, giving both common grace and special grace of the gospel where needed. Common grace is given to all, but some receive special grace of the gospel also. Some need more, some need less grace, depending on our predisposition. In all cases, the grace is always sufficient. For example a person on a remote island somewhere is not prevented from being saved because he was not a Jew or Jesus had not yet come or did not have access to the Scriptures. He is not regenerated first irresistibly. God never forces Himself on anyone, just as it would be wrong for us to, but gives them the choice, and does not pass over others (preterition), because that would be evil too. Humans are born into sin which is not our fault (don't let a Calvinist tell you otherwise), but it is our fault if we don't respond to God's enabling grace to be savingly regenerated.

Notice your doubletongue when you said a person has to be regenerated first otherwise you said there is no need for them to be born-again. That makes no sense. You're saying a person has to be born-again otherwise there is no need for them to be born-again!? If that makes sense I am a monkey's uncle. Regeneration and the new birth are the same thing. God is not partial to anyone. He regenerates only those who respond to His sufficient grace that is for all.

The precious blood of Jesus covers everyone's sins, including that person on that remote island previously mentioned. The sufficiency of God's grace including common grace allows a person to respond to the Creator and Savior. The reason you need to be born-again is the same reason you need to be regenerated since regeneration and being born-again are the new birth - the very same thing.

Romans 1.20 is a good verse that reveals God's common grace is sufficient which disproves your theory that it is insufficient. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." You are WITHOUT EXCUSE! You would only have a valid excuse if your god was true having to regenerate people before they could be saved. You can only receive initial salvation (regeneration) once.

moderatecalvinism · 02-09-2010, 09:43 PM

"then then would be no reason to be born again after you believe"

As seen in my post and as I told you in emails prior.. I believe man has the free will to respond to God. That is only after God draws him (John 6:44) Secondly I believe faith precedes regeneration as seen in my qoute above. I believe you need to take the time to read what I wrote instead of assuming what I believe

**Churchwork** · 02-09-2010, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by moderatecalvinism

only after God draws him

done by regeneration, then then would be no reason to be born again after you believe

You need address your contradiction instead of avoiding it. Face it head on.

As was said in Youtube messages and the previous post which you fail to address, this is a contradiction. Since regeneration and born-again are the same thing, it makes no sense to say unless a person is born again then there would be no reason to be born-again after you believe.

Satan is a doubletalker. God says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

done by being born-again ---> believe ---> born-again. WRONG! You can't be born-again twice.

God draws everyone since His grace is sufficient for all so nobody is Totally depraved. So...

Totally depravity is false. You don't have to be regenerated before being regenerated. God doesn't draw just some people, but everyone; that's why we can all respond. The precious blood of Jesus atones for the sins of the whole world even those who only ever knew common grace.

moderatecalvinism · 02-09-2010, 11:04 PM

Adhominem attacks are fruitless. Secondly you need to read once again. Let me parse it for you (born again after you believe) this means faith precedes regeneration. I have posted so many videos proving how faith precedes regeneration it is funny that someone would present a strawman against me saying that I believe regeneration precedes faith. I suggest you read before you post, it will be alot more fruitful. Gb

**Churchwork** · 02-09-2010, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by moderatecalvinism

Adhominem attacks are fruitless. Secondly you need to read once again. Let me parse it for you (born again after you believe) this means faith precedes regeneration. I have posted so many videos proving how faith precedes regeneration it is funny that someone would present a strawman against me saying that I believe regeneration precedes faith. I suggest you read before you post, it will be alot more fruitful. Gb

I am glad you couldn't show an ad hominem attack. Well looks like I am not going to get you to address your specific contradiction: "done by regeneration, then then would be no reason to be born again after you believe." Let's try another approach to help you see Total depravity is heresy...

A person who you claim is Totally depraved can't respond to the Gospel you said unless God draws them.

But since God draws everyone then nobody is Totally depraved. Do you see that? Hence, to teach Total depravity as the reason why some people go to Hell is a lie.

At the fall man never becomes Totally depraved or anytime after that because God always provides sufficient grace. Praise the Lord!

Therefore, Total depravity is just a pet teaching, an idol, a false teaching that most Calvinists use to eternally separate themselves from God. It's very sad really.

moderatecalvinism · 02-09-2010, 11:52 PM

More fruitless discussion if you want to know what I believe watch this video. I believe God draws everyone, I also believe you are deemed a heretic even from an arminian standard seeing as you deny original sin (no total depravity) this is called pelegianism it has been deemed a heresy since Christianity arose.

**Churchwork** · 02-09-2010, 11:55 PM

More fruitless discussion if you want to know what I believe watch this video. I believe God draws everyone, I also believe you are deemed a heretic even from an arminian standard seeing as you deny original sin (no total depravity) this is called pelegianism it has been deemed a heresy since Christianity arose.

I believe in original sin as do all Arminians accepting the fallen nature. The fallen nature of mankind is not the same thing as Total depravity. Total depravity teaches that a person can't respond to the Gospel due to an alleged Total inability. Because you believe in Total depravity that makes you a pelagian denying the original sin, for original sin doesn't mean Total depravity. Calvinists don't believe in original sin, for original sin doesn't make you Totally depraved since God's grace is sufficient for all.

Atonement is not limited, but unlimited because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, so that video is wrong which you said you agreed with which says atonement is limited.

God does predestinate by foreknowing our free-choice, but that video says God does not. In your profile you agreed God predestinates by foreknowing our free choice (answered "Yes"), so you contradict yourself again when you said you agreed with the video you posted.

Total depravity does mean Total inability, but that video says it does not mean Total inability. Recall you said before Total depravity does mean Total inability so you disagree with the video again. But you said you agreed with the video?

Limited atonement is mutually exclusive of unlimited atonement. Both cannot be true at the same time. The atonement from God's perspective is available to us all, and from our perspective anyone of us can be saved whosoever is willing.

It sounds to me like you are embarrassed by Calvinism but still unwilling to let go by holding onto the idol of Total depravity which is why these contradictions remain in your heart.

Your Total inability teaching is false.

moderatecalvinism · 02-10-2010, 06:56 AM

I dont believe it as they teach it either. This is clearly laid out in the video I provided

**Churchwork** · 02-10-2010, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by moderatecalvinism

I dont believe it as they teach it either. This is clearly laid out in the video I provided

You said for the above video "if you want to know what I believe watch this video". I did. Now you are changing your mind and say you "don't believe it"?

Just know what you believe is false because Total depravity is a false. We are not Totally depraved, but made in God's image and given the grace to be able to respond. Amen.