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Thread: 4 Step Proof for God & Minimal Facts Approach

  1. #11
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    Default The New 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible


    Infinite Regress is Impossible
    1. We observe trillions and trillions of cause and effects in nature, and no hard evidence something comes from nothing, which is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt for causation. But if there is this infinite regress you would have happened already having had an eternity do so. And you would never have existed because the past would still be going on for eternity never reaching this point. As you can see, infinite regress in all its varieties (e.g. cycles, multiverses) is inherently contradictory and therefore, false.

    Something Can't Come From Nothing
    2. Something can't come from nothing (non-existence) either, because that which does not exist can't cause anything. Nothing always leaves nothing from nothing. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process in an isolated system, the total energy remains the same. Since that which does not exist has no energy, it cannot produce a singularity for the universe. Many times I have heard atheists say, "The properties of the universe are different from the whole, so the composition doesn't need to abide in the law of cause and effect when it was brought into being." Of course, this is doublespeak because for something to be "brought into being" requires a causation.

    A Mind is Needed to Create a Mind
    3. Since nature can't always have existed nor start up from nothing, there must exist that which is outside of nature, that is, outside of time and space which always existed. This is whom we call the uncreated Creator. If you want to compare an always existing timeless singularity to the uncreated Creator, simply observe what we know that that which doesn't have a mind, will, emotion, conscience, intuition or self-consciousness can't produce that which does. The lesser can never produce the greater. There has not even been enough interatomic interactions in the history of the universe to be able to do so. If you claim time is needed to bring about this universe from a causeless singularity but the singularity has no element of time then this universe would never have come into being.

    The Resurrection Proof Proves Jesus is God
    4. Now that we know the uncreated Creator exists, we can compare. A God who is accessible and personal is better than one that is not. Only in Christianity do we find God enters His creation, dies for the sins of the world and proves He is our Creator by resurrecting Himself from the dead which can only occur supernaturally. Since almost all skeptical scholars concede for good reasons the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings and there are no naturalistic explanations that can account for the origin of the disciples' beliefs, having exhausted them all, we should submit ourselves to this evidence, because if a person doesn't, he or she will surely go to Hell according to Jesus our Creator.

    Decision Time

    You may acknowledge this is considerable evidence and even the best God could righteously and realistically perform. Yet you still resist which is natural of your flesh, for the flesh of your old man is sin of the body and self of the soul. It's independency and disobedience to God is prolific and profuse. It can't be fixed or refined. It's only verdict is death. Even so, God has given you sufficient grace to be able to respond to His saving grace. You're not totally depraved. All you need to do is walk through that door by faith from the old creation into the new creation.

    In view of this evidence what are you really risking if you give up and give into Christ by coming to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior? If you are wrong in doing so, you'll just cease to exist like you were going to do anyway. If you are wrong, not giving up your fleshly inordinate control of self to place your trust in Him, nothing is worse than being in Hell eternally separated from God. But if you are right to submit yourself to the Lord, nothing is better than having a relationship with Jesus and eternal blessings of being with God and the Lamb at center of the New City in the New Earth.

    If you continue to do what you have always done, you will continue to get what you always got.

  2. #12
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    Sin Leads to Death and the Second Death which is Hell

    We all sin. There is no person who has never not sinned. Sin leads to death and we all die. For example, if you drink too much or smoke, you have a higher probability of dying sooner than you would otherwise. If you have a temper or let other emotions eat away at you, you will die sooner. Unhealthy choices or thoughts suffer the same fate. Hence, sin leads to death. Even if we did not sin we would still eventually die, because our bodies are inherently weak. So when I refer to sin leading to death I am not referring to the death that we all eventually confront, but that of dying sooner than we would have.

    Sin also leads to the second death which is Hell. How do I know this? I know God exists and Jesus is God by the proof for God of the Bible. Therefore, since Jesus spoke on Hell more than anyone, I know those who refuse to receive what He did for us on the cross will go to Hell. They would rather spend eternity in Hellfire. The only solution to sin is for God to take those sins back upon Himself if we are willingly to allow Him to do so.

    God is infinitely greater than us so even one sin eternally separates us from God even if we repented of it. Even one sin eternally distances us from God because its damage has wrought in some way. For God to spend eternity with us He needs us to be likewise sinless; and have all sin punished accordingly. Also, just because you repent of a sin doesn't mean you don't have to do the time. A murderer and rapist don't get let out of jail because they repented. If you do the crime be willing to do the time: i.e., eternity in the Lake of Fire for continuing to reject the ransom paid. You say you are not afraid of God's judgment? I guess you're not.

    "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire" (Rev. 20.14). "But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (21.18). Unlike any natural fire that burns out, this one never does. "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone" (14.10), and "they have no rest day nor night" (v.11), for it "will never burn out" (Matt. 25.41). They "will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out" (Is. 66.24).

    Praise the Lord for our glorious God who provides the solution through His redemptive design by His only begotten Son Jesus Christ who shed His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins for us to receive eternal life and our death with Him for resurrection life, otherwise we would all go to eternal jail. God sends nobody to Hell because they were born into sin, but if they refuse the solution to their sin problem, then Hell is the only solution to our sin nature. It looks like only God can never not sin and thus, never need to be punished for sin. Therefore, He becomes sin for us, taking our punishment upon Himself so that we can be punished in Him and with Him. So shall we be saved by grace through faith.

    My Own Personal Sense of Holiness, Righteousness, Justice and Love

    Now I also have a personal reason as well why Hell is necessary but is congruent with the Bible and thus, necessarily is what the Bible is saying. I believe it would be evil if God were to create us in His image and give us God-consciousness then to allow us to cease to exist. While it is allowable for pre-Adamic men and animals to cease to exist because they don't have God-consciousness, it would be unrighteous and unholy for God to allow us to cease to exist. Therefore, we will all be resurrected. However, it would also be evil of God if He were to allow atheists who remain atheistic, or those who still want to believe in Allah or reincarnation or continue in a particular sin, to be allowed into eternity future in the New City and New Earth with God's elect.

    Would it not be similarly wrong to allow a rapist or other criminals out of jail who belongs there for life? How much more so for those who can inflict harm on God's people? There can be no sin in the New Earth. Any person who wants to remain in any sin including the sin of unbelief by definition is harmful to those around him. Christians though we may have a sin we are not aware of, we openly declare we want to be rid of all sin even those sins we are not aware of to allow God in time to cleanse us of all unrighteousness and self-righteousness.

    You don't need to know more than what I have just told you-in fact, a fraction of what I said is probably enough-to know with certainty someone who refuses to give their life to Christ will go to Hell. And the decision is determined in the one life we have. If a person were to die sooner than another, God takes this into account so if that person were to live a full life, he still would not have given his life to Christ. And if he were to give his life to Christ I am sure God would save him. Though it is possible and plausible anyone who does die early would never have given their life to Christ so an early death by anyone, except for possibly children before the age of accountability, were never going to give their lives to Christ anyway.

    If you want to argue it is unfair of God to send someone to Hell based on finite sins in this life, I would respond to you by saying who says they are finite? The atheist will continue to reject God not just in this life but in the next also by which he eternally separates himself from God. A clue to this fact is notice elderly people almost never give their lives to Christ. In fact, I can't even think of one. Even Antony Flew who was the most published and famous atheist scholar of the 20th century in his 80's became a deist theist in 2004. But guess what? He never gave his life to Christ. If you know of anyone who has, let me know.

    The Pain of Atheism is Less Than the Fear of Losing Control

    What's amazing about those who go to Hell is that the pain they have built up in themselves in rejecting God continues to permeate their being, as they wish, for eternity so that it would be more fearful and painful for them to give their lives to Christ in a million years from now than repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. They may even consider it to be heaven, but those who truly know Heaven couldn't stand the heaven of atheists. An exponential progression of momentum builds up in their hearts.

    In 6 years it become 6 times harder to give one's life to Christ. Giving up control of self becomes even scarier. In 6 times 6 years it becomes 6^6 times harder and scarier more still to let go of self, and so on, until nobody after they die would ever give their lives to Christ, not even one. Maybe, in part, that's why our maximum age is around where it is. At approximately 120 years the oldest age, there are 20 sets of 6 years. 6^20= ~4 million billion. If there has only been 50 billion souls since Adam, all the souls that ever lived have been covered to prove the point nobody would ever align themselves with or give their lives to Christ after death.

    If anyone knows of anyone who has given their life to Christ in their 80's or 90's who was perhaps an atheist/agnostic all their life, or a Muslim, Roman Catholic or Hindu, please let me know and respond here.

    "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear.
    For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love" (1 John 4.18).

  3. #13
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    Default Legends Theory

    Problems with the Legends Theory

    The Resurrection account itself can be traced to the real experiences of the original Apostles even if you disregard the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the other epistles of Peter, James, Jude and John. This can be concluded as follows:

    1. Paul recounted the oral tradition he received (1 Cor. 15) from the original Apostles he spent time within just five years after the cross (Gal. 1 & 2), but likely he would have heard about it much sooner than that since he was a persecutor of Christians before being saved;
    2. they set up churches based on the resurrection of Jesus (in Acts and Paul's epistles);
    3. the fact that James, who did not become a believer until after he saw Jesus resurrected, was an Elder of the church of Jerusalem; and
    4. various second generation Apostles reported they knew the original Apostles who testified to them that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

    If embellishments were added over time so that the ending of the account became the resurrection of Jesus, then the original disciples would have given an account which would not have included the resurrection. But these earliest sources are the best evidence we have, and there are no early sources contradicting their eyewitness testimony.

    Paul came to Christ through an experience which he thought he encountered the risen Jesus objectively with others present with him whom also at that moment had seen the light, fell to the ground, heard the voice and may have seen the man, but did not understand what was happening as Paul was talking to Jesus.

    Since his conversion was based on his personal eyewitness testimony of the appearance of Jesus along with the testimony of the original Apostles having the same eyewitness testimony whom he spent time with, we can be sure legends theory is is not possible as people don't willingly die for what they believe to be a lie. All of the original Apostles were put to death for their claim except for John who was imprisoned. Paul almost died seven times in the Scriptures before his final martyrdom in the Neronian persecutions around 65 AD.

    With the early martyrdom of James the Greater and Stephen, and Jesus telling the disciples they would be put to death for their eyewitness testimony of having seen Him resurrected, precedence was clearly set in their own hearts, they knew full well what was going to happen to them if they continued to preach the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ being God and died on the cross for the sins of the world, was resurrected the third day, seen the fortieth day ascending to the clouds and gave the Holy Spirit to indwell believers at Pentecost.

    Legends theory does not account for the martyrdom of the Apostles in their defense of the resurrection of Jesus. People don't willingly allow themselves to be put to death unless they really believed it, so those original twelve Apostles who spent over three years with Jesus would not set up churches based on the resurrection of Jesus if Jesus did not really rise from the dead. There were no early churches we know of that were not based on the resurrection of Jesus.

    If the resurrection occurred they would be in the best position to know it more than anyone. Hence, the original disciples are the best primary source and thus, the key source.

    Of all that we can glean from the New Testament, one thing we can be absolutely certain of is the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. As Gary Habermas puts it, "The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus." The appearances were on multiple occasions with different individuals in places.

  4. #14
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    The original 4 Step Proof: 1) mankind would have approximated into an alleged past eternity, as all things would, and not still be sinning to the extent we still do along the exponential progression of conscience we are clearly on which applies to multiverses, cycles, infinite possibilites, etc., and 2) nature always has a cause from something so it can't come from nothing. Please 3) don't misrepresent God of the Bible in your argument, and 4) the same rule in (1) applies to any alleged supernatural infinite regress. The NEW 4 Step Proof: 1) infinite regress is impossible, 2) something can't come from nothing, 3) a mind is needed to create a mind, and 4) the resurrection evidence proves Jesus is God.

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