Calvinists are Evil

[Churchwork]

You obviously didn't read the Scripture references I gave regarding Acts 16:14. As I said, the Greek word translated "worshipped" in that verse is "sebo", the same word as is found in both Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7, which say, "IN VAIN they worship Me...." Just because Lydia had worshiped God previously, it doesn't mean she was saved; that didn't happen until God regenerated her in Acts 16:14. As far as a remote island inhabitant goes, Rom. 1:18-20 answers that. You also said that Old Testament people didn't go to Hell; have you never read Lk. 16:19-31? You said God moves irresistibly on no one in salvation; have you never read Acts 9:3-6?

People can sebo not in vain. The problem with your theory is that all those prior to Christ would have gone to Hell. Where did I say people in the OT would not go to Hell? What I said was that some can be saved from the OT period because they believed in God, so surely they would accept the Messiah just as those today who believe in God so when they are presented the Christ they surely would accept Him. There is no reason to think Paul's experience irresistibly forced him to believe. He could easily still have kicked at the goads and rejected Christ. Many of the 500 who had seen Jesus alive from the dead could still have rejected Him. The disciples who were unwilling to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood walked away. So your arguments utterly fall on your head. God is not an evil tyrant.

I never denied that the entire human race is commanded to repent (Acts 17:27, 30), but that doesn't mean God grants that to every member of the entire human race. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?
Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING unless it has been GIVEN to him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO ONE can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by My Father."

Acts 13:48: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Phil. 1:29: "For to you it has been GRANTED...TO BELIEVE in Him...."

Acts 11:18: "God has also GRANTED...REPENTANCE to life."

II Tim. 2:25: "In humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will GRANT them REPENTANCE, so that they may know the truth."

Yes God is the provider, but none of these verses say God doesn't provide sufficient grace to all, for we read in Scripture, God wants none to perish; therefore, He provides sufficient grace to all and pleads with all.

You're repeating the same verses but you don't show how they agree with you as you insert your theory into them.

Rom 9:16-24: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. "You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, [even] us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

The Pharaoh hardened his own heart first.

God's grace isn't irresistible in regeneration? What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

I Sam. 10:9: "So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart...."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Jn. 1:12-13: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

James 1:18: "OF HIS OWN WILL He brought us forth by the word of truth."

Where do any of these verses say God irresistibly imposes salvation? Stop inserting. That's your flesh.

You miss the point. Man is dead, separated, in his natural state (Isa. 59:2, Eph. 2:1), and the only way spiritual communication can take place (Jn. 9:31a) is for God to regenerate him. Regeneration is dependent on God's own sovereign will (Jn. 3:8, Jas. 1:18), not on man's will (Jn. 1:13). Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, tells us in Word Pictures that "which were born" is in the passive voice, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action other than being on the receiving end of it.

You miss the point. Man being dead doesn't mean Total inability, but lost communication. It indicates propensity to sin, not Total depravity. Certainly man is depraved but not Totally depraved, for man at the very least can help an old lady across the street and so can respond to God's call. John 9.31 is presenting a choice: believe and hear or remain as you are a sinner. A sinner can't be saved unless he gives his life to Christ. It doesn't say anything about having to be regenerated first before one can believe. Regeneration is certainly God's doing don't but is not disallowed to anyone, for if you search Him out with all your heart and soul and believe on Him, you shall be saved. This is my prayer for you that you receive Christ authentically and let go of the Satanic grace you are under.

Many Jews were not saved in Old Testament times, as Paul tells us in Rom. 9:6-26; he says there that individual salvation is dependent on the sovereign will of God (Rom. 9:16, 18).

Many were saved also.

God's election is unconditional, it is not based on anything seen in man (Rom. 9:16). You've really got your nerve accusing me of having a works-based belief system, a "selfish salvation"; if there's any such system here, it is yours, that of Arminianism. Saving faith is a work (Jn. 6:28-29); not in the sense of man's performing it to merit salvation, but in the sense of it being an action on his part. The Word of God says saving faith is God's gift to man, not man's gift to God (Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 1:29). You hold the position that man provides that apart from God's grace in salvation; if anybody here is promoting a works-based system, it is you. I never assumed anything about regeneration before I believed and repented, I just did those things; but I know that I did those things only because God allowed them to me. Faith and repentance are the fruits of regeneration, not the causes of it.

Romans 9.16 is saying you can't will salvation into being or work for it like Calvinists do by just assuming you were irresistibly made to repent or be regenerated. That's selfish and pompous. Calvinists try to will salvation into being by merely assuming regeneration without any prior repentance or faith. That will never do. You as a Calvinist work for your initial salvation since it was never your choice according to your theory, so you can't really know if you are saved. All you do is work for it in hopes that it turns out. God wants you to respond to Him to His work to be saved (John 6.28) by genuinely coming to the cross instead of pompously priding yourself over others you think you were irresistibly selected and they were not. What love is this? God is the provider of sufficient grace which affords us all the choice. You said you being Totally depraved just repented and believed. How can you just repent and believe if you are Totally depraved unless your god irresistibly imposes it on you and denies sufficient grace for all? This is an inherent contradiction of your faith which brings about the two-willed theory of a secret decretive will and a revealed prescriptive will which conflict with each and then not addressing this contradiction. God doesn't want all to be saved secretly, but tells everyone He does? If your god is a doubletalker, then you are a doubletalker.

You said, "You don't really know if you are saved, that's why you work for it.....You reveal it yourself you are unsaved...." You referred to me as "someone who is Hellbound". You continue to judge my heart, a clear violation of the Scriptures (Mat. 7:1-2, Jas. 4:12).

You judge yourself, for you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Matthew 7.1-2 does not say not to judge but that if you do judge, what judgment you judge by shall be judged upon you if you commit the same sin. I don't sin the sin of erecting an idol of Total depravity that prevents me from being able to obtain the gift of repentance and faith to truly believe in Christ and be regenerated. If you are to judge, like we throw people in jail for their crimes, make sure your judgment is the judgment of the Law Giver.

You hear me now, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. I have every authority, whether you recognize it or not, to use Rom. 12:14 in the Name of Christ by His grace, as I am His child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. You may rebuke me all you please, but that doesn't change things, nor does it intimidate me.

You said the Devil is motivating me which is judging, but in your previous paragraph you said not to judge. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). This shows you are using Scripture selfishly. You have not authority, for how can someone who is not even born-again have any authority in God's kingdom? The purpose of me telling you these things is not to intimidate you, but to tell you the truth God provides sufficient grace to all. He is a just and and fair God. Why should His standards be less than ours? He regenerates no one irresistibly. It is wrong for us to irresistibly impose ourselves on others, so it is true for God also. He rejects idols such as Total depravity, for you are made in God's image and are not Totally unable. You did not cease to be made in God's image after the fall. This is a selfish theory that you erect that prevents you from truly repenting and believing in Christ to be regenerated. Very sad. How deceitful is man's heart in his wiles and ways. Who can know how deceitful man's heart really is!

You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely of unbelief and of heresy, which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

You accuse yourself for you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. God is not an evil tyrant as you surmise like Hitler who from birth determines the Jews belong in the gas chambers without giving them any recourse whatsoever, or saving the Aryan race irresistibly even though they are want to remain sinners.

Think about that. God will not entertain your false and selfish salvation. One of the greatest evils of our day is Calvinism and no doubt, Satan will have his Antichrist use it in some fashion at the consummation of this age. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, are saved. Jesus responds by saying He never knew you O prideful Calvinist man who claims to be irresistibly selected. Shame on you!

[briancook007]

No, sir, you said that Lydia was saved because she worshiped God; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to show that just because she worshiped God, it didn't mean automatically that she was saved. Anyone who reads Acts 9:3-6 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly, regardless of your attempts to explain it away.

No, God does not provide saving grace to the entire human race. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Psa. 65:4: "Blessed [is the man] You CHOOSE, And CAUSE to approach [You], [That] he may dwell in Your courts."

Jn. 5:21: "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to [them], even so the Son gives life to WHOM HE WILL."

Acts 11:18: "God has also GRANTED...REPENTANCE to life."

Acts 13:48: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."

Phil. 1:29: "For to you it has been GRANTED...TO BELIEVE in Him...."

I Tim. 6:12: "...eternal life, to which you were also CALLED..."

II Tim. 1:9: "Who has saved us and called [us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began."

No, Pharaoh did not harden his heart first; the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, so that he will not let the people go." A careful examination of the Hebrew of this text shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a wicked, evil, totally depraved sinner, which subject can be left for another time. What does Dan. 4:35 say? "All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

God's grace is irresistible in regeneration; what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

You miss the point; unregenerate man is dead, separated from God. No spiritual communication can take place while he is in that state (Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a); the only way God will hear him is if He regenerates him, removing that separation. He is totally depraved, regardless of any good work he may do. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Job 15:16: "How much less man, [who is] abominable and filthy, Who drinks iniquity like water!"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, And the whole heart faints. From the sole of the foot even to the head, [There is] no soundness in it, [But] wounds and bruises and putrefying sores."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are all like an unclean [thing], And all our righteousnesses [are] like filthy rags."

Tit. 1:15-16: "To those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and DISQUALIFIED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK."

You said, "Romans 9.16 is saying you can't will salvation into being or work for it like Calvinists do by just assuming you were irresistibly made to repent or be regenerated. That's selfish and pompous. Calvinists try to will salvation into being by merely assuming regeneration without any prior repentance or faith. That will never do. You as a Calvinist work for your initial salvation since it was never your choice according to your theory, so you can't really know if you are saved." These comments show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Calvinists never assume anything regarding God's grace, we don't say that man has to assume that he is regenerated before he repents and believes. We say that God commands man to repent and to believe; we don't discount human responsibility, and we say that man should do those things this very day. We say that man has nothing in which to glory, that the only reason why he repents and believes is because God allows those things to him (Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48). And yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; what saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death."

Acts 4:27-28: "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

You fail to distinguish between judgment in human law and judgment in assuming the state of another man's heart, which you've done in clear violation of the Scriptures (Mat. 7:1-2; Jas. 4:12). When I said the Devil was motivating you, I was telling the truth. I wasn't judging your heart's state, I was being a fruit inspector (Mat. 7:15-20).

I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of selfishness, of pride, of idolatry, and of "Satanic grace", which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

[Churchwork]

No, sir, you said that Lydia was saved because she worshiped God; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to show that just because she worshiped God, it didn't mean automatically that she was saved. Anyone who reads Acts 9:3-6 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly, regardless of your attempts to explain it away.

You are falsely accusing Lydia, for she did not believe in God in vain. It was real, that's why when she was presented the Christ she would accept Him. Automatically she is saved, just as anyone in the OT was saved who believed in God even though Jesus hadn't been born into the world yet. What she receives at new birth is the fulfillment of her saving faith. Anyone who knows the Bible knows that you may take of the water of life freely, whosoever believeth on Him Jesus Christ. Never do we find in Scripture even once God irresistibly imposing salvation and certainly not Paul either.

No, God does not provide saving grace to the entire human race. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Psa. 65:4: "Blessed [is the man] You CHOOSE, And CAUSE to approach [You], [That] he may dwell in Your courts."

Jn. 5:21: "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to [them], even so the Son gives life to WHOM HE WILL."

Acts 11:18: "God has also GRANTED...REPENTANCE to life."

Acts 13:48: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."

Phil. 1:29: "For to you it has been GRANTED...TO BELIEVE in Him...."

I Tim. 6:12: "...eternal life, to which you were also CALLED..."

II Tim. 1:9: "Who has saved us and called [us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began."

Where did I say everyone is saved? Obviously, people are going to Hell, that's why Hell exists, because people refuse God's saving grace. Rather, God provides sufficient grace to all to have the choice for the opportunity to be saved, for He wishes that none should perish.

No, Pharaoh did not harden his heart first; the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, so that he will not let the people go." A careful examination of the Hebrew of this text shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a wicked, evil, totally depraved sinner, which subject can be left for another time. What does Dan. 4:35 say? "All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

Exodus 4.21 reads, "I WILL harden his heart. Even Piper (a calvinist) acknowledged:

Before the first active assertion of God's hardening in Exodus 9.12 there are two assertions that he [Pharaoh] hardened his own heart [8.15,32] and after 9.12 there are two assertions that he hardened his own heart [9.34,35] [Thus] Pharaoh's "self-hardening" is equally well attested before and after the first statement that God has hardened him...." (Emphasis added)

Of course God does according to His will, but not evilly as portrayed by Calvinists.

God's grace is irresistible in regeneration; what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

You miss the point; unregenerate man is dead, separated from God. No spiritual communication can take place while he is in that state (Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a); the only way God will hear him is if He regenerates him, removing that separation. He is totally depraved, regardless of any good work he may do. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Job 15:16: "How much less man, [who is] abominable and filthy, Who drinks iniquity like water!"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, And the whole heart faints. From the sole of the foot even to the head, [There is] no soundness in it, [But] wounds and bruises and putrefying sores."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are all like an unclean [thing], And all our righteousnesses [are] like filthy rags."

Tit. 1:15-16: "To those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and DISQUALIFIED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK."

These verses say God opens the heart and that we are sinners, nothing about Total depravity or irresistible grace or regeneration. Try again.

You said, "Romans 9.16 is saying you can't will salvation into being or work for it like Calvinists do by just assuming you were irresistibly made to repent or be regenerated. That's selfish and pompous. Calvinists try to will salvation into being by merely assuming regeneration without any prior repentance or faith. That will never do. You as a Calvinist work for your initial salvation since it was never your choice according to your theory, so you can't really know if you are saved." These comments show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Calvinists never assume anything regarding God's grace, we don't say that man has to assume that he is regenerated before he repents and believes. We say that God commands man to repent and to believe; we don't discount human responsibility, and we say that man should do those things this very day. We say that man has nothing in which to glory, that the only reason why he repents and believes is because God allows those things to him (Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48). And yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; what saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Just because a person is allowed repentance doesn't necessitate that he will repent, for he has God-given freewill to have the free-choice to accept or refuse. How can there be true responsibility if everyone is Totally depraved and nobody can be saved in the gospel of Calvinism unless they are irresistibly made to repent! So it remains true a Calvinist chooses by his own free will to assume regeneration without prior repentance and faith; and for those smarter Calvinists who say they were regenerated after being made to repent and believe, they are equally in error because God does not impose repentance on anyone. God has one will, not two wills for He is one Being. If God had a secret foreordinative will and a revealed preceptive will, they contradict each other in your faith, for it is clearly a contradiction to say you want everyone to be saved but secretly you don't. If this is doubletalk for us, it is doubletalk for God, since His standards are not less than ours.

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death."

Acts 4:27-28: "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

You fail to distinguish between judgment in human law and judgment in assuming the state of another man's heart, which you've done in clear violation of the Scriptures (Mat. 7:1-2; Jas. 4:12). When I said the Devil was motivating you, I was telling the truth. I wasn't judging your heart's state, I was being a fruit inspector (Mat. 7:15-20).

The law is not removed from judging the heart of another when a verdict is rendered. The judgment is upon you but not upon me because I don't believe your false teaching. When I spoke the truth that you are not born-again it is a judgment upon you; there is no doubt for what I received from God is the truth and not a lie about your unsalvation. The reason you say men are not allowed to judge is so they don't judge YOU which points to you as the center of the universe. Shame on you!

I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of selfishness, of pride, of idolatry, and of "Satanic grace", which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

You are not born-again, because you still refuse to repent and believe on Christ to be regenerated. That's the bottom line. God wants a real relationship and can't have one with you if continue to resist His will. Jesus will not defend someone who refuses His requirement of true repentance and faith. Christians can see your shallow unrepentant heart by your overassuming.

I refuse your blessing, for it is the blessing of an unsaved man who exalts himself above non-believers on the assumption he was regenerated without having to repent and believe while they were allegedly given no grace to receive the opportunity to be saved. What love is this? Certainly not the love of God of the Bible.

You're under demonic possession where you think you are saved but are not. It moves you and guides you as it did to entice you into a selfish salvation where did not have to repent and believe to be regenerated. So you work for your salvation that was not your choice according to your belief as it was irresistibly imposed on you and because you can never really be sure if you were selected when it is not your choice.

[Churchwork]

I was praying for you the way you post, and I think you would be better served to realize being vague is your problem. What you do is look at a verse and assume into it things like Total depravity or irresistible regeneration. Try to examine a verse more closely and with precision to see you can't do that. Only extract from a verse what it says and no more. Your mistaken assumptions are killing you and are way to loose with the Scriptures for your doctrine. A person can make the words of God say anything with that approach.

[briancook007]

Boy, isn't that "the pot calling the kettle 'black'". The only person in this debate who's engaging in eisegesis is you, sir. You say you've prayed for me; have you never read Mat. 7:1-5, where the Scriptures say:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

[briancook007]

You are accusing me falsely by your saying that I have accused Lydia falsely. She was baptized immediately thereafter (Acts 16:15), which shows that the previous verse indicates her salvation, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). Rev. 22:17 c & d say, "And LET HIM that is athirst COME. And whosoever will, LET HIM TAKE the water of life freely." Again, in the Greek both of these statements are in the imperative mood, which means that they are commands, not invitations. The Word gives the first command to whoever is thirsty; unregenerate, totally depraved man is never thirsty for salvation, he is satisfied with his own sin, for the Scripture saith, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" (Job 15:16). The second command is given to "whosoever WILL (Gr. "thelo")", whoever has a desire for it; the only way totally depraved, unregenerate man ever has a desire for salvation is if God allows that to him, for what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way."

John 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN him from heaven."

John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

John 6:65: "No man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN unto him of my Father."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Rom. 11:7: "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it...."

John 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest THE GIFT OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is THE GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell."

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others."

You believe man provides saving faith in and of himself apart from God's grace? What saith the Scriptures (Mat. 16:16-17)?

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Anyone who reads Acts 9:1-6 & 15 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly in salvation, for the Scriptures say:

"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."

No, God does not provide "sufficient grace to all to have the choice for the opportunity to be saved"; He COMMANDS man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Rom. 1:18-20: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Regarding Pharaoh, you're thinking two-dimensionally; just because it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, the point remains that before any mention is made of that, God had said already that He would harden his heart (Ex. 4:12). Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. Paul uses Pharaoh as an example of a reprobate sinner, even raising the question of injustice, something that never appears in the Arminian system. Regarding any injustice that may be inferred by man, what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:14-22)?

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Regarding man's sinful natural state and God's sovereign grace in regeneration, what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Acts 18:27: "...them...which had BELIEVED THROUGH GRACE..."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Isa. 59:2: "But your iniquities have SEPARATED between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that HE WILL NOT HEAR."

Jn. 9:31: "Now we know that God HEARETH NOT SINNERS."

Job 15:16: "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6-7: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is NONE THAT CALLETH UPON THY NAME, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: FOR THOU HAST HID THY FACE FROM US, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities."

Those verses do teach total depravity and irresistible grace, regardless of your attempts to explain them away.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Calvinism never says that one should assume he's been regenerated before he believes and repents; it says that man must do those things this very day. Yes, God does have a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar THE KING OF BABYLON, my servant, and WILL BRING THEM AGAINST THIS LAND, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I WILL PUNISH THE KING OF BABYLON, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 11:18 says, "Then hath God...GRANTED REPENTANCE unto life."; He didn't grant the possibility of repentance, He granted REPENTANCE. Acts 13:48 says, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Regarding man's responsibility in faith and repentance and concerning God's two wills, you continue to try to understand Him completely; that's not possible, we're finite. I don't understand how He can be three Persons and one God simultaneously, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Bible teaches it.

No, sir, you are not permitted to judge another man's heart, to say that he's an unbeliever; you have accused me falsely in this, shame on YOU!

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession. Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees levelled the same accusation against Christ, for what saith the Scriptures?

Mk. 3:30: "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Jn. 8:48: "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?"

You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing you please, but that won't stop me from giving it by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of making a false accusation, of selfishness, of pride, of arrogance, and of demonic possession, all of which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

[Churchwork]

You are accusing me falsely by your saying that I have accused Lydia falsely. She was baptized immediately thereafter (Acts 16:15), which shows that the previous verse indicates her salvation, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). Rev. 22:17 c & d say, "And LET HIM that is athirst COME. And whosoever will, LET HIM TAKE the water of life freely." Again, in the Greek both of these statements are in the imperative mood, which means that they are commands, not invitations. The Word gives the first command to whoever is thirsty; unregenerate, totally depraved man is never thirsty for salvation, he is satisfied with his own sin, for the Scripture saith, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" (Job 15:16). The second command is given to "whosoever WILL (Gr. "thelo")", whoever has a desire for it; the only way totally depraved, unregenerate man ever has a desire for salvation is if God allows that to him, for what saith the Scriptures?

You brought up Lydia claiming she was irresistibly made to believe when you originally wrote, "The only way God can hear him is to regenerate him, making him alive in Christ; only then does spiritual communication occur.... Please notice what Acts 16:14 says: 'whose heart the Lord opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED unto the things that were spoken of Paul' (KJV)." The reason why Lydia was receptive was because "she worshiped God" as anyone who already believed in God would be. They would accept the Son. The Hebrews who anticipated the Messiah would receive Him. Paul didn't say she was a non-believer, but that she believed in God, so upon hearing Paul speak she was open to receiving Jesus into her life. This new birth she received the Holy Spirit could indwell this new life. What you are failing to understand is that even if she were to die and never have seen Jesus, she would be saved, because she believed in God. How wrong it is of you to accuse an ancient Israelite who believed of God that he would go to Hell only because he hadn't seen Jesus yet. You are falsely accusing Lydia of going to Hell (prior to her encounter with Paul) as well as being irresistibly forced to believe in Jesus. It's not the case at all. Her believing in God naturally brings her into accepting the Lord Jesus for Jesus is one with the Father. If you receive the Father, you'll receive the Son; and if you receive the Son you'll receive the Father. Special grace of the Gospel is more abundant grace give to the rest of the world in need, and all things point back to Christ in which all things are summed up in Him.

This is an appeal to people to come: "The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' Let each one who hears them say, 'Come.' Let the thirsty ones come--anyone who wants to. Let them come and drink the water of life without charge." Whoever desires may come. God commands people to do something, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily do it. God does His righteous part and they have their response incumbent upon them by this invitation. The imperative mood is: "a mood that expresses an intention to influence the listener's behavior." Influence doesn't necessitate absolute decretum. Influence can only go so far. You assume whosoever and desire can not be obtained by the person unless is it is irresistibly imposed on him, but such is not the case for God's grace is sufficient that whosoever is willing may desire after God and receive his saving grace. Man is not Totally unable. He is still made in God's image though fallen. The difference between your god and God of the Bible is this central facet that unrighteously yours is unwilling to die for the sins of the whole world, because he is either impotent to be able to do so or unwilling.

Isa. 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way."

John 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN him from heaven."

John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

John 6:65: "No man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN unto him of my Father."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Rom. 11:7: "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it...."

John 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest THE GIFT OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is THE GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell."

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others."

You believe man provides saving faith in and of himself apart from God's grace? What saith the Scriptures (Mat. 16:16-17)?

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

These verses speak of propensity of man's sin nature, not Total inability. You can still help an old lady across the street. It might help to realize that man wouldn't exist without God or be called if He did not first choose and love us, so it is true with the drawing power of God, but that is not to say God does so irresistibly. He is such a big God He can supply all with enabling grace so that none are without excuse.

Anyone who reads Acts 9:1-6 & 15 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly in salvation, for the Scriptures say:

"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."

Jesus presented Himself to Paul, and Paul employed his free will to say "Lord, what wilt though have me do?" He could have remained hardened. This was within his realm of choices. Don't read into the text irresistibly imposed and forced into believing Jesus.

No, God does not provide "sufficient grace to all to have the choice for the opportunity to be saved"; He COMMANDS man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Rom. 1:18-20: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Regarding Pharaoh, you're thinking two-dimensionally; just because it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, the point remains that before any mention is made of that, God had said already that He would harden his heart (Ex. 4:12). Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. Paul uses Pharaoh as an example of a reprobate sinner, even raising the question of injustice, something that never appears in the Arminian system. Regarding any injustice that may be inferred by man, what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:14-22)?

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

"God has shewed it unto them" is God's common grace coming unto all men. God commanding and pleading and inviting are not mutually exclusive of His common grace or special grace. You're missing the point about Ex. 4.21, for in there we see it is a foretelling of what will happen, which is not actively happening yet. Even Piper as was shown admitted the first instance of active usage was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first. This is shows disagreement within the Calvinist camp. Rarely do you find such disagreement with OSAS Arminians. The disagreement among Calvinists is far and wide, because it is hard to rationalize false teaching. It seems like there are as man different views of Calvinism as there are denominations, though all centered on Total depravity with some irresistible imposition without affording the person true genuine choice of their free will by denying its sufficiently supplied grace to all. You seemed to pass over Piper's comment with no mention of it at all. The Pharaoh's heart is not Totally depraved, for at any point he had the free will to not be a hard case which does not conflict with God's foreknowledge of his actions; as he continued to remain obstinate, God harden his heart further to bring about the plagues and show God's mighty work of deliverance against seemingly impossible odds.

Injustice is never raised in Arminianism? You're obviously foaming at the mouth. The injustice is seen in God hardening the Pharaoh's heart for continuing to keep the Hebrews as slaves for 430 years. OSAS Arminians don't see the justice in making the Pharaoh from birth without any recourse destined for Hell. If such attitude is evil for man to behave that way towards fellow man, then God having standards higher than ours would consider such tyranny unacceptable in His own heart. God is not an evil tyrant as you surmise and portray, no matter how much you try to make Him out to be. Your conscience has no sensitivity to this so like many Calvinists before you, God will continue to harden your heart till you reach that breaking point when you then and only then possibly give your life to Christ.

In Romans 9.19 we don't find the one who blames God as blaming Him for irresistible regeneration or denying sufficient grace. Rather in God's infinite wisdom, He shows mercy on whom He shows mercy because He knows what is sufficient grace for all. For example, there is no requirement to give a certain someone more grace than is needed if he were to come to Christ with much less grace. That the one who blames God and misperceives Him is left with Paul responding by saying, who are you to judge God? Reminds me of a Calvinist trying to get into God's head and judging Him for being the God who is able to provide sufficient and enabling grace to all to give us free choice that is only truly free when sufficient grace is bestowed upon all. A Calvinists envisions a god who can't do this.

Regarding man's sinful natural state and God's sovereign grace in regeneration, what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Acts 18:27: "...them...which had BELIEVED THROUGH GRACE..."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Isa. 59:2: "But your iniquities have SEPARATED between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that HE WILL NOT HEAR."

Jn. 9:31: "Now we know that God HEARETH NOT SINNERS."

Job 15:16: "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6-7: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is NONE THAT CALLETH UPON THY NAME, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: FOR THOU HAST HID THY FACE FROM US, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities."

Those verses do teach total depravity and irresistible grace, regardless of your attempts to explain them away.

None of these verses indicate irresistible grace, but certainly sufficient grace each according to whom it is given, showing mercy upon whom He shows mercy. God never gives a person more than he can handle and never denies the amount needed to believe on Him. These verses speak of the sinful nature of man. They don't necessitate the Total inability of Total depravity, nor does the sovereign grace of God require irresistible imputation, but regeneration follows repentance and faith as God pleads with us to do so. Propensity to sin never equals necessity. Willfulness never requires Total inability. If He wishes that none should perish, then if he were to deny even one human being ample grace to have a true authentic free choice before Him with respect to God, then God would be negligent. God will not go against His righteous an holy nature.

"What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16.30-31). "We have also obtained access by faith into this grace" (Rom. 5.2), "for by grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2.8). Faith comes before salvation (regeneration).

What more clearer appeal is there?

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Calvinism never says that one should assume he's been regenerated before he believes and repents; it says that man must do those things this very day. Yes, God does have a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar THE KING OF BABYLON, my servant, and WILL BRING THEM AGAINST THIS LAND, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I WILL PUNISH THE KING OF BABYLON, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 11:18 says, "Then hath God...GRANTED REPENTANCE unto life."; He didn't grant the possibility of repentance, He granted REPENTANCE. Acts 13:48 says, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Regarding man's responsibility in faith and repentance and concerning God's two wills, you continue to try to understand Him completely; that's not possible, we're finite. I don't understand how He can be three Persons and one God simultaneously, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Bible teaches it.

The command to do these things is irrelevant to a Calvinist because he assumes he is regenerated to make him do those things, but how is repentance and faith that is forced upon someone true repentance and faith? The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian, for the latter comes to Christ as helpless sinners to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, but the former though claiming were selected, are just assuming it without the prior repentance and faith necessary to enter into a genuine relationship. Hopefully you are beginning to see how selfish and corrupt the lie of Calvinism is by erecting this idol of Total depravity that keeps you from entering into a genuine relationship with Christ Jesus.

God does not have these two wills you claim, for they contradict each other. There is no secret will that conflicts with God's revealed will. You are not allowed to insert anything into God's secrets, like all cults do. Genesis, Jeremiah ands Acts verses you gave present no secret contradictory will where God doesn't want everyone to be saved and then outwardly claims He does. Absurd! There is nothing the flesh can't rationalize. God is not doubleminded. It is in the contradiction that the cult is exposed. Knowing God worketh evil for good is not a contradiction with anything God does as is for Calvinism's two contradiction wills.

I don't know everything about God but I do know when a contradiction is brought out, there is something wrong. God has one will not two wills. A second will that is secret is invoked to rationalize the false teaching of Total depravity. The many that are ordained to eternal life are those whom God foreknew who would receive Him. Thus, they are ordained in His divine providential care. A lot of people have troubles with God's 3 Persons, but it really isn't that complicated when you think of how complex God must be His 3 Persons express that better than anything else. Intuitively I know I pray to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit in my spirit. Yet a Calvinist tries to get into God's head by asking the question, Why do some people choose God and some don't? Instead of just accepting we are sovereign beings made in His image with free will, the Calvinism formulates a theology surrounding why some people choose and some don't.

No, sir, you are not permitted to judge another man's heart, to say that he's an unbeliever; you have accused me falsely in this, shame on YOU!

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession. Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees levelled the same accusation against Christ, for what saith the Scriptures?

Mk. 3:30: "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Jn. 8:48: "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?"

You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing you please, but that won't stop me from giving it by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of making a false accusation, of selfishness, of pride, of arrogance, and of demonic possession, all of which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

Whereas the Pharisees could not prove their accusations against Jesus, it is proven that you are not born-again and are demonically possessed, unable to extricate yourself from the hold the evil spirit has on you under this Satanic grace in which you pompously exalt yourself by alleging you were regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ. Talk about a selfish salvation! You get to eat your cake and eat it too as you stack the deck for yourself. This judgment that is upon you is like how Jesus said, if you won't accept Moses an the prophets before Him, how will you accept God the Son? Jesus says He doesn't have to judge you, but the prophets of old judge you because you worship a false Messiah one which is just for show, since you are allegedly irresistibly selected anyway and others you claim are passed over from birth and there was nothing they could do about. You don't have a conscience to realize how evil and corrupt this is.

You continue to remain in the same unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Incidentally, this is why you work so hard for your salvation because it was never your choice, so you really don't know if you are saved or not, thereby hoping that if you keep up the good work this will secure your assumed salvation.

My prayers go out to you that you yet may give your life to Christ one day like this Calvinist did at a Southern Baptist Convention. Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation. There is only one way God saves. He predestinates by foreknowing your free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (OSAS).

Amen.

Boy, isn't that "the pot calling the kettle 'black'". The only person in this debate who's engaging in eisegesis is you, sir. You say you've prayed for me; have you never read Mat. 7:1-5, where the Scriptures say:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Your unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated is no small thing.

[briancook007]

You proceed from a false premise. Your argument is that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14 because she worshiped God, that that proves that she was believer; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to refute that, showing your logic to be faulty. Paul never said that she was a believer before Acts 16:14; that is erroneous.

Did you read what I wrote about Rev. 22:17c & d? Those two statements are in the IMPERATIVE MOOD in the Greek, which means they are COMMANDS, not invitations. Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood; what saith the Scripture? "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." No, man does not have a propensity to sin, it is his nature to do nothing but to sin apart from God's grace. Man isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Job 25:4-6: "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?"

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

Psa. 51:5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Lk. 16:31: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Rom. 8:5-8: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

I Cor. 12:3: "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Eph. 4:18-19: "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

I Tim. 5:6: "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."

Unregenerate man can help others, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

You say irresistible grace isn't necessary for man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Eccl. 7:13: "Consider the WORK OF GOD: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?"

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN A GOOD WORK in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Rom. 2:4: "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance?"

Eph. 1:19-20: "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead."

Phil. 3:12: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I AM APPREHENDED of Christ Jesus."

You say God didn't move upon Paul irresistibly in Acts 9:1-6? Are you serious? Paul "fell to the earth" while he was on his way to persecute God's people! God changed his sinful nature right then and there, regenerating him and giving him the gifts of both faith and repentance.

John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. The first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:12, before it ever is said that he hardened his own heart. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. If there's any kind of uniformity of belief among OSAS Arminians, it's because Satan never divides against himself (Mk. 3:25-26), Arminianism being false doctrine, heresy.

No, injustice in God never is raised in the Arminian system; man always gets what he deserves. You Arminians are the ones who accuse God of injustice; reprobation makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you people reject it.

When you quoted Rom. 5:2, you forgot to quote Col. 2:12; what saith the Scripture? "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through THE FAITH OF THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead."

You again show your complete ignorance of Calvinistic teaching; we don't say man should assume he's regenerated before he repents and believes, we say he should do those things this very day, this very moment. You said, "The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian...." You got that part right. You Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace, while we Calvinists say correctly, scripturally, that those two things are God's gifts to man, not man's gifts to God. I wonder if the thought ever has occurred to you people that the primary object of your system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD.

Your ignorance of the facts is showing badly. Christ was murdered when He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, God's preceptive will; but, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

You say God doesn't have a secret will? What saith the Scripture? (Deut. 29:29)? "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

You said, "Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation." You have no authority to rebuke my prayers, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You hear me again, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. By God's grace, you will not deter me, you will not intimidate me; by His grace, I'm not going away. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum.

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession, the very same charge the Pharisees levelled against Christ (Mk. 3:30, Jn. 8:48). Those Pharisees were unregenerate, lost, REPROBATE. Very interesting. How very true are the words of Spurgeon when he said, "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of working for my salvation, repeatedly of demonic possession, of making false accusations, of cowardice, of cultism, of "Satanic grace", of my alleging that I was "regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

[Churchwork]

You proceed from a false premise. Your argument is that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14 because she worshiped God, that that proves that she was believer; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to refute that, showing your logic to be faulty. Paul never said that she was a believer before Acts 16:14; that is erroneous.

Matthew 15.9 and Mark 7.7 don't refute that Lydia believed in God as was explained "sebo" can be unto to God or away from God. You are repeating yourself but not responding to my response about this. Where was Lydia talked about prior to Acts 16.14 either way? The first thing mentioned about Lydia is that she believed in God. Do you see also your problem where you would have everyone in the OT be unsaved because they hadn't seen Jesus? That's illogical. You're avoiding this point too, for you have not responded to it yet. People from the OT could be saved also. Please address this and stop avoiding this point. "Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God" then "heard [us]" (Acts 16.14). Whether she had believed God or not is actually irrelevant anyway, because it was her choice. Whether she had already believed in God (which she did) or come to believe in Him just then still doesn't change the fact it was her choice to respond. My belief is because she already believed in God she was once-saved-always-saved so her decision was already made when presented the Christ she could not deny Him. Either way you look at it, you can't turn this scene into a defense for Calvinism which is why you brought it up in the first place. You'll have to look elsewhere.

Did you read what I wrote about Rev. 22:17c & d? Those two statements are in the IMPERATIVE MOOD in the Greek, which means they are COMMANDS, not invitations. Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood; what saith the Scripture? "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." No, man does not have a propensity to sin, it is his nature to do nothing but to sin apart from God's grace. Man isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Job 25:4-6: "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?"

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

Psa. 51:5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Lk. 16:31: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Rom. 8:5-8: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

I Cor. 12:3: "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Eph. 4:18-19: "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

I Tim. 5:6: "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."

Unregenerate man can help others, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

You're like a Mormon who quotes lots of stuff as though it agrees with him. You need quality not quantity. You need to get specific with a verse rather than be a regurgitation machine. Your use of imperative mood goes beyond the Scripture usage and definition: "a mood that expresses an intention to influence the listener's behavior" does not demand irresistibly forcing. That's reaching. That God demands something and call people to do something does not mean He forces it, nor does it mean they will respond. With authority He says to repent and believe and by so doing He is appealing to us. It is both a command and an invitation whosoever believeth in Him--though not passive invitation on God's part but He actively pleads with us.

You are wrong that man only ever does wrong, for I know some people who help old ladies across the street. And even atheists have charities. None of these verses you quoted from the Bible indicate man is Totally depraved. Certainly man is fallen and his propensity is to sin. His willfulness to sin is most apparent, but He is not Totally unable. Man would not exist without God; likewise man needs God's grace and assistance in all things. That is not the issue before us. The issue before us is you are trying to find a verse that teaches irresistible grace and imposed salvation in which your god is partial to some and not to others he passes over by preterition. You've thus far failed all your life in the eyes of a Christian who looks at your work.

The mistake you are making in the above verses is that of a legalizer: like an unethical bad lawyer that turns a grey into an absolute. Not one of these verses you can show clearly points to Total depravity of Total inability. Therefore, we can conclude you erect this idol in order to claim you couldn't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated as an excuse not to. God's grace was sufficient for you, but you deny the ability He gave you to obtain this gift of repentance and faith truly come to Him with an honest heart, thus placing yourself under a passivity of control by demonic forces to take possession of your will and give your responsibility before God.

"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

You say irresistible grace isn't necessary for man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Eccl. 7:13: "Consider the WORK OF GOD: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?"

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN A GOOD WORK in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Rom. 2:4: "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance?"

Eph. 1:19-20: "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead."

Phil. 3:12: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I AM APPREHENDED of Christ Jesus."

Again observe the verses you give, for not one of them say a person is irresistibly made to repent and be saved and others passed over and not given the grace to have the choice. God is not partial. He is impartial. His grace is sufficient for all. I know this is hard for you to believe, but it is true because in the Bible God dies for the sins of the whole and wishes that none should perish. The issue before us is not whether God supplies grace and that grace is needed, for of course it is. The issue is whether God is impotent that he needs to irresistibly impose it on some and deny it sufficiently to others, but you could find no such verses, and so you remain a child of perdition as you exalt yourself over others, but you are no less a child of perdition than they are. And the reason is clear, because you refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Instead you took an assuming stance which you claim was having been made irresistibly to believe. This is a selfish salvation without true repentance and faith God require from you. He sets the condition which you deny for "whosoever believeth".

You say God didn't move upon Paul irresistibly in Acts 9:1-6? Are you serious? Paul "fell to the earth" while he was on his way to persecute God's people! God changed his sinful nature right then and there, regenerating him and giving him the gifts of both faith and repentance.

God can make a person fall to the earth, but the person who falls to the earth still has the free-choice to respond to God's conviction. God was able to change Paul's sinful nature because Paul responded to God's call. Paul was one man who needed that much grace to be saved. Of course many who receive even that much grace would still reject God so God need not throw them to the ground anyway.

John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. The first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:12, before it ever is said that he hardened his own heart. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. If there's any kind of uniformity of belief among OSAS Arminians, it's because Satan never divides against himself (Mk. 3:25-26), Arminianism being false doctrine, heresy.

I'll say, he is not even born-again, as a Calvinist. It's interesting the Calvinists can't agree with each other. But he is right about the fact that the first instance mentioned of hardening was not the active moment, but of God foreseeing. Why do you continue to overlook this fact? You don't respond to it. The first active hardening was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart. You don't read the Bible very well. The Pharaoh is not Totally depraved. No man is. This is an idol you erect that keeps you separated from God, causing you to be unwilling to repent and believe in Him to be regenerated, which you even admit you have not and will not. Satan is the false accuser to the last through you where there is this strong agreement in the Body you call it evil. Which makes sense, because you are not a member of the body of Christ, but do Satan's bidding. It is Satan that wants you not to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, and you give into this selfish nature not to.

No, injustice in God never is raised in the Arminian system; man always gets what he deserves. You Arminians are the ones who accuse God of injustice; reprobation makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you people reject it.

Yes, God did raise up Jacob Arminius in response to the heresies of Calvinism. Arminianism doesn't say man does not get what he deserves, but we do say that God is not an unjust God who does not provide ample grace. Reprobation, those going to perdition need not be by preterition, for God is a fair and just God and would want none to perish so He does all He must to the uttermost of His righteousness to save the most and damn the least. The carnal mind makes God an evil tyrant with morals less than man's and equal to Hitler by sending them from birth like the Jews to the gas chambers without any opportunity of escape and receive the love of God. What love is this?

When you quoted Rom. 5:2, you forgot to quote Col. 2:12; what saith the Scripture? "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through THE FAITH OF THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead."

That's obnoxious. I don't speak to people like that, nor should you. I don't say you forgot to quote one of many verses. I forgot to quote a verse, one of thousands of verse you just popped out and said I didn't quote? Please. This faith is not the saving faith unto regeneration, but it is the faithfulness one has after being saved, so one who is saved gets baptized. A person who has died with Christ on the cross naturally gets buried in baptism and rises up with Him and out of the world. A person who is born-again is already saved. The act of baptism of the Spirit is experienced as result of this new life. Calvin thought salvation was before or at baptism before even believing in God as an infant. That's the consistent and common assumption that plagues Calvinism to assume regeneration without prior genuine repentance and faith. That's twisted to get buried before dying. The very pride you exhume from that day of first assuming regeneration without repentance and faith can't help but rear its ugly head in pride again and again. And this is how you come across. It's palpable. You can't sense it though. You're hovering on the surface oblivious.

You again show your complete ignorance of Calvinistic teaching; we don't say man should assume he's regenerated before he repents and believes, we say he should do those things this very day, this very moment. You said, "The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian...." You got that part right. You Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace, while we Calvinists say correctly, scripturally, that those two things are God's gifts to man, not man's gifts to God. I wonder if the thought ever has occurred to you people that the primary object of your system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD.

I am sure you say you shouldn't assume you are regenerated because that would be of self, but nonetheless, you do assume you were regenerated without prior repentance and faith because you admit by the idol of Total depravity you couldn't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Your mistaken assumption got the better of you. Arminians don't say what you accuse of that repentance comes from man, not at all. Rather, we may obtain the gift of repentance and faith by coming to God with an honest heart, so you are clearing mistaken in misrepresenting Christians when you said, "Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace." In fact, this very thing you claim is what you engender because it was against God's grace to merely assume regeneration without any true heart felt repentance and prior believe to be saved. It's sad the Calvinist doesn't realize his grand assumption and self-exaltation is his pretentious gift to Satan. The objective of Christianity, and thus agreed to by Arminian, is to glorify God for God created us to have a relationship with us and none is higher than Him. Whereas in Calvinism you glorify evil, the evil that sends people to Hell without recourse from birth when there was nothing they could do about it, they were just born that way, and he irresistibly imposes this alleged salvation you claim you have. This is utterly evil, but you don't have a conscience to sense your erroneous thinking, because you don't want to be saved God's way. And that's very sad, very sad indeed.

It should be enough for you to leave Calvinism by recognizing the contradiction of your god who claims he wants all to be saved openly, but secretly he doesn't. God is not a doubletalker but your god is. Repent!

Your ignorance of the facts is showing badly. Christ was murdered when He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, God's preceptive will; but, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

You say God doesn't have a secret will? What saith the Scripture? (Deut. 29:29)? "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

God doesn't put Himself to death. But He uses evil for good. In foreknowing man's hostility against God Almighty, God would use that to provide a salvation for men that whosoever was willing could receive His mercy and grace. I have some advice for you: try to read any one particular verse more closely and not read into it that which is not there or not clearly shown there. Really see if you can do it! Assume nothing.

You said, "Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation." You have no authority to rebuke my prayers, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You hear me again, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. By God's grace, you will not deter me, you will not intimidate me; by His grace, I'm not going away. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum.

You call upon a false Christ, because in your faith Jesus died frivolously since whether he died or not, you were to be irresistibly selected according to your proclamation of regeneration. The authority that I have is that of an Apostle to tell you, you are not a child of God by the Holy Spirit, fully proven in Scripture, for there are no verses for Total depravity and there is not irresistible grace--this is Satanic grace, not God's grace at all.

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession, the very same charge the Pharisees levelled against Christ (Mk. 3:30, Jn. 8:48). Those Pharisees were unregenerate, lost, REPROBATE. Very interesting. How very true are the words of Spurgeon when he said, "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

The Holy Spirit reveals you are under possession because you are unable to repent of the heresy of Calvinism. You're like the reprobate of Calvinism, locked in and this is possession by the imposing evil spirits. Not all Pharisees are reprobate for some may have yet given their lives to Christ like Paul did. Spurgeon recognized the unsalvation of himself and Calvinists because he said "the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all..." You kick with the devil because you were not willing to submit to God, for submission to God is not pridefully assuming you were regenerated without prior repentance and faith, nor is it by a God who makes you believe without genuine repentance which we all may freely obtain. A gift is never forced on anyone. May you yet one day give your life to Christ. I'd hate to receive a gift from you. I'd be dragged into having to accept it.

You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of working for my salvation, repeatedly of demonic possession, of making false accusations, of cowardice, of cultism, of "Satanic grace", of my alleging that I was "regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

God's grace came upon you and you rejected it when you refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. That's the bottom line: it is the same theme over and over. Not to say you couldn't this very day give your life to Christ, but it is highly unlikely, for you have already decided what you want. It oozes out from you such immense pride Christians can see it easily it is not of the Holy Spirit but the evil spirit. You preach a false gospel. You are not a child of God and probably never will will be, for like I said, you are possessed and you want to remain under the control of the evil spirit (proclaiming it to be of God, but Jesus says He never knew you). You've made your choice, now you want to try to understand that evil choice. The blessings of an unregenerate are rebuked in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. My prayers go out to you, you don't have to remain as you are. You do have a choice, for you are made in God's image as a sovereign free willed being to be under God or under Satan. The problem is choice and coming to the cross as a helpless sinner without pridefully assuming.

Amen.

[briancook007]

Your logic is faulty. The burden of proof lies upon you to show that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14, which you haven't done; you are the one who is sidestepping the issue. I never said that everyone in the Old Testament was unsaved because they hadn't seen Jesus; that's a misrepresentation, so again, your logic is faulty. It never says that Lydia believed in God, it says she worshiped Him; that doesn't mean automatically that she was saved, as Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 show. Despite your attempts to explain it away, this incident does show irresistible grace, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD us: whose heart the Lord opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR my word. He that is of God HEARETH God's words: ye therefore HEAR them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (or, CREATION): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the passive voice in the Greek, which means that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

No, the imperative mood means that the statement is a command. Again, Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood, where Christ says, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." What else did He say (Lk. 13:5)? "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Mk. 1:15 is not an invitation, it is a command to man to repent.

You still deny total depravity? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Unregenerate people perform charitable acts, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

No, in Acts 9:1-6 Paul was on his way to persecute God's people, his nature was evil at that point; God changed his nature irresistibly, the only way his evil nature could have been changed, regenerating him, giving him a new nature (II Cor. 5:17), which is why he said, "LORD, what wilt thou have me to do?"

You want me to respond to my point about Ex. 4:12, that the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened was when God said He would harden it? What saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand."

Eph. 1:11: "...the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."

The Scripture does not say, "As it shall come to pass, so have I thought." It says, "as I have thought, so shall it come to pass." God does not foresee events, He is the foreordinative Author of them.

You say reprobation is unjust? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:16-22: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Dr. A.T. Robertson says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Foreordinatively, God "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph. 1:11).

No, the baptism in Col. 2:12-13 refers to regeneration (I Cor. 12:13), for it is written:

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

Your irritation is showing; I'm reminded of the words of Tacitus when he said: "Abuse, if you slight it, will gradually die away; but if you show yourself irritated you will be thought to have deserved it." Perhaps your irritation shows your own recognition of the heretical error of Arminianism.

No, sir, I was correct when I said that Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance apart from God's grace. You people say that man comes to Christ of his own free will, that God never forces that, that man makes the ultimate decision whether or not he's saved, that, ultimately, he saves himself by being smart enough to make the right decision in and of himself. That is proud, arrogant, and carnal. You Arminians are the ones who are guilty of "grand assumption and self-exaltation." Again, the primary object of your heretical system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD, no matter what linguistic legerdemain you may employ to try to explain it away. Your denial of these things shows that not only are you ignorant of Calvinistic teaching, you're also ignorant of Arminian teaching.

No, Calvinism doesn't "glorify evil", it says that man is a foul, wretched, vile creature in and of himself apart from God's grace, that his only hope is in a merciful God Who would have been entirely within His legal rights, because of the Fall, to have damned every single member of the human race to eternal Hell fire; but, in His infinite wisdom, mercy, and grace He chose to save some while passing by others, justly condemning them for their sins. Do you know what reprobation is? God's letting man have his own way. The reprobate sinner has no desire to be saved, for the Scripture saith (Job 15:16): "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" He has no desire to take "the water of life" (Rev. 22:17), his thirst is satiated already with his own sin. You Arminians say man takes that water in and of himself, that he believes and repents in and of his own capacity, regardless of your denial of it; but what saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

The Scriptures declare that God has both a foreordinative will and a preceptive will (Deut. 29:29). Jesus Christ was murdered, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, the day He died on the Cross of Calvary, but the Scriptures declare:

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

There is an instance where God used even the Devil himself to accomplish His foreordinative will, when it was a direct violation of His preceptive will:

I Chr. 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

II Sam. 24:1: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

You've accused God falsely of double-talk in this; I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you answer for that.

No, the reason why God regenerated me was because Christ died in my place, taking all my punishment on the Cross. God applied the precious Blood of Christ to my heart, giving me a new nature; He forgave me because of the Atonement, not irrespective of it, as you've said erroneously. No, sir, you are not an apostle; those twelve men are with the Lord now, having accomplished their blessed work on this earth. You have no right to accuse me falsely, to judge my heart, to say that I'm an unbeliever. I'm saved, elect, by God's sovereign grace, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior, my "advocate with the Father" (I Jn. 2:1), to defend me against these satanic, carnal, false charges.

No, the Pharisees who accused Christ falsely of demonic possession, as you've accused me falsely of it, are in Hell now, they were reprobate, because in so doing they committed the unpardonable sin (Mk. 3:28-30, Jn. 8:48). You do not exhibit the spirit of Christ, you show the spirit of the Devil. Spurgeon indeed was correct when he said: "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of idolatry, repeatedly of demonic possession, repeatedly of assuming regeneration before faith and repentance, repeatedly of selfishness, of demonic control, of being a "child of perdition", of being a Satanic instrument, of doing Satan's bidding, of giving a "pretentious gift to Satan", of "Satanic grace", of calling upon a false Christ, of preaching a false gospel, of unwillingness to repent and to believe, of admitting to an unwillingness to repent and to believe, of pride, of "Satanic grace", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded, nor will your refusals or your rebukes nullify them, for I respecfully call upon God in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to protect and to prosper any and all blessings that I have given you in this entire debate. I have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).