Mary, Where Are You? Are You Awake or Asleep?

[JakobG]

Churchwork,

You are reading an awful lot into the Scripture passages. For example Rev. 6:10 says nothing about God waking up the martyrs. Please read Revelation 6:9-11 again: “And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also.”

Notice the timing is at the fifth seal, God gave them white robes and they are told to wait for their brethren who will be killed. This consummates in Rev.7:9-15 where they are gathered before the throne of God serving him day and night in his temple (v.15). This would be hard to do if one is asleep or out of existence.

All the O.T. passages need to be interpreted through the NT revelation. Without the NT teaching, what was unrevealed in the OT would stay a mystery as Paul states in 1 Cor.15:51: “behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.” Speaking of the resurrection of the body.

Matt 13:11, 35; Rom.16:25; I Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:4-5 and 3:9 give us a definition of a mystery as something that was unrevealed in the OT and now revealed for the first time in the NT. Heaven was not explained in the Old Testament , the immortality of man, the resurrection to eternal life, the forgiveness of sins as permanent. There is the NT mystery of the revelation of God in Christ, 1 Tim. 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh,” None of these were explained until we had NT revelation. Likewise so is the revealing of what actually transpires after death through the teaching of Christ and the apostles.

Soul-sleep is defined as silence, inactivity and an entire unconsciousness. That once death occurs it affects the spirit of man just as it does the body. This would mean the spirit is only alive when it has a body. We know this is not true and is contrary to the Bible. Jesus in Lk.23:46 said to the Father into your hands “I commit my spirit,” isn’t this clear he is having his spirit received into the Fathers hands while his body is to be laid in the tomb. This is the very same thing Stephen states in Acts 7:59 Stephen cried unto the Lord saying “receive my spirit.”

Jesus in Matt. 26:38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. He was not saying his soul was going to die and go to sleep.

James. 2:26: “the body without the Spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” Meaning only the body dies, as James uses the example that faith animates our works so the Spirit animates the body. The relationship between the material and immaterial when broken means we die physically. Our spirit is not dead like the body. The Spirit is just as alive outside the body as it is inside the body. The resurrection only applies to the body. When our spirit returns, our bodies come alive again. The correlation made is that real faith (which is invisible) is displayed to others by having works to show it is alive .

In Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus he was was not giving disinformation or representing them falsely. The rich man was very much aware of his misfortune as he suffered in Hades he had his thoughts (that temporary abode of the departed spirits of the wicked). While Lazarus enjoyed the blessedness of Paradise (Luke 16:19-31) It is obvious that the rich man is conscious, as Lazarus is conscious, and Abraham is conscious, though they are all dead. All the stories Jesus told always illustrated truth not something false. These two have recently died and one has been long dead. Indeed, their physical bodies are asleep but not their souls.

In Jn.11:11-14 Jesus says of Lazarus that he sleeps referring to his body. Jesus then says “I will wake him out of his sleep.” He then raised his body from the dead.

In Mt.27:52 the Scripture tells us that at the time of of the resurrection “many bodies of the saints which slept arose.” The specific mention of bodies makes the meaning clear of what actually slept. It was not the saints themselves that slept but their bodies.

The term “sleep” when it is used of death is in reference to the body. Whenever the Bible speaks of death in the sense of sleep it is always used of the physical body and not the soul. The term “sleep” is never applied to the soul or the spirit , but only the body. The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. whenever the Bible uses the term “sleep” in reference to death of the body. It is never used of the unbelievers in the NT. It is a term used only of believers which shows God's viewpoint of the death of a believer. From God's perspective the death of a believer is a temporary suspension of physical activity. For example, in physical sleep there is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one wakes up, but there is no suspension of the activity of the mind, the soul or spirit, and the sub-consciousness keeps operating (as in Lk.16:19-36 death is not a cessation of existence for either the rich man or Lazarus.)

[Churchwork]

You are reading an awful lot into the Scripture passages. For example Rev. 6:10 says nothing about God waking up the martyrs. Please read Revelation 6:9-11 again: “And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also.”

Notice the timing is at the fifth seal, God gave them white robes and they are told to wait for their brethren who will be killed. This consummates in Rev.7:9-15 where they are gathered before the throne of God serving him day and night in his temple (v.15). This would be hard to do if one is asleep or out of existence.

Your argument fails you because it requires you to bear false witness, for I don't believe those in Rev. 7.9-15 are asleep. Rev. 7.9 "After these things . . . , standing before the throne and before the Lamb"—This word implies that before the opening of the seventh seal there must be a rapture. They did not get to heaven the minute they died, but at the 5th seal for the martyrs and at the various rapture points. Notice the timing of the 5th seal occurs following the 4 seals of the past 20 centuries.

This section sketches for us this scene in heaven. Who is the great multitude? Though we dare not conclude definitely that this refers to the whole church, we would nevertheless say that it includes the majority of the redeemed of God; that is, it consists of those in the first rapture, plus that great number who are raised from the dead, together with the relatively smaller number of those who yet remain alive on earth and are changed. Here we are not shown how the church is raptured, only an outline description is given of the heavenly scene after the church has been raptured.

Please note that 7.9-17 narrates the period from the rapture (the first rapture) to eternity (the new heaven and the new earth). What is described in 7.15-17 depicts the same scene as is found in 21.3-7.

Note also that 7.9-17 only deals with rapture generally, not exclusively; and neither does it speak exclusively of the scene of eternal blessing. Consequently, we must not conclude that what is given here is indicative of the rapture of the whole church once and for all; for nothing is said as to how this vast multitude got there, it only states that they are there.

Yet how do we know that this is the scene in heaven of the raptured church? Several reasons are given.

I think you are reading into the text that which is not there: claiming they are in heaven before being given the white robe. You can't come before God unless you have a white robe, for no man came come before the High Priest naked; and since not even David a man after God's own heart has been raised yet, neither are the martyrs prior to the 5th seal.

"And they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7.14b). "Robes" is in plural number, and these robes signify righteousnesses, even the righteousnesses of the saints. They do not refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as our righteousness. Indeed, the robe (singular) is righteousness (Is. 61.10), and it is the Lord himself (Jer. 23.6), for Christ is our righteousness (1 Cor. 1.30). We are clothed with Him as we come before God. But this righteousness has no need to be cleansed by the blood.

Hence we have two robes: the one we are clothed with when we are saved, by which we stand before God; the other is our own righteousnesses—even our victories—in which we may stand before Christ. The white garments spoken of in Revelation 3.18 require a price, whereas redemption is that which need not be bought.

No Christian will be judged and condemned before God (John 5.24); but no Christian will be exempt from having to stand and be judged before the judgment seat of Christ according to what he has done (2 Cor. 5.10).

Believers’ robes are washed clean, yet not because of the great tribulation but because of the blood of the Lamb.

The very fact that the robes of the saints are washed in the blood of the Lamb shows how they once were defiled on earth yet they have followed the instruction of 1 John 1.9, and thus they are cleansed.

6.11 “White robe”—This shows that God has justified them because they were accepted by Him. The justification here is different from that of salvation since this is the verdict of God who on the throne is announcing that the saints have won the case, they only waiting for the verdict to be executed (and so are beginning to be raptured by this time with the first rapture).

“Rest yet for a little time”—This word alone may prove that the church cannot be raptured all at once, because this waiting implies a long and protracted persecution during the Tribulation period. By the 5th seal they are raptured (immediately before the Tribulation starts) and must now only wait for the rest of the brethren to be raptured, though there may be some who war with Michael to remove Satan out of 2nd Heaven as we see indicated in Rev. 12.7-"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon."

“Until their fellow-servants also and their brethren”—During the Great Tribulation there will be great slaughter. In 7.13-15 political persecution is spoken of, but 17.6 refers to religious persecution. The way for the church (for those who were not raptured before the Tribulation) is through death. Martyrdom is not a blessing, but it is rewarded. Carnal Christians who were not ready to be received (Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10) will go through the time of testing to yet possibly overcometh at that time; otherwise, they will lose the reward of returning with Christ (Jude 14,15).

The Bible seems to imply that at the first rapture there is no resurrection. The phrase “underneath the altar” does not refer to death as a result of a sin-offering, rather it alludes to death as a consequence of a burnt-offering (Ex. 40.6,10,29; Lev. 4.7,10,18; 1 Chron. 6.49, 16.40, 21.29; 2 Chron. 29.18). Thus we may conclude some of those raptured at the first rapture will be those who were asleep, specifically the martyrs from previous centuries of the Church.

What men take note of is the sin-offering, but that which God sees first is the burnt-offering. Although without the Lord Jesus ever being the sin-offering we would none of us have life, nevertheless God will not accept anything without Christ being the burnt-offering—that is to say, His offering His all to God in obeying and doing God’s will. Here do we see that even His death on the cross is according to the will of God. In that same spirit of Christ Paul too offered himself as a burnt-offering (Phil. 2.17; 2 Tim. 4.6). Throughout his life he was a living sacrifice. And so this is why they are included in the first rapture and not in the general resurrection at the last trumpet near the end of the Tribulation.

All the martyrs shall enter the kingdom to reign. Three classes of people will reign with Christ (20.4): (1) “thrones, and they sat upon them”—this refers to those people such as are cited in 3.21; (2) “them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God” (they are resurrected as martyrs at or shortly before first rapture)—here it is a reference to those people as are found mentioned in 6.11 (resurrected by the first rapture); and (3) “such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image”—this is referring to those fellow-servants and their brethren mentioned in 6.11 (resurrected individually 3.5 days after they go to rest like the Two Witnesses throughout the Tribulation period).

FACT: Since the Bible is explicit David is not raptured yet, there is no reason for you to think other people raptured yet, especially in light of the fact we are taken up together in 1 Thess. 4.15-17. This gives me comfort: "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.18). I would not be particularly comforted thinking there was a party going on without me of bodiless spirits in Heaven right now while so many Christians are suffering now today on earth. Are you sure want to cling to your stance?

DANGER: The danger of believing your loved ones are in heaven right now already is that you will have supernatural communications with evil spirits posing as your loved ones to misguide you in life. A person who is resting, asleep in Hades, can't communicate. He is in what we may call in "timeless unawares" awaiting the day of resurrection whether that be of the saints before the 1000 years or the unregenerates after the 1000 years. So by communicating with false spirits posing as loved ones, you will be deceived and misled. That's what Satan wants.

Soul-sleep is defined as silence, inactivity and an entire unconsciousness. That once death occurs it affects the spirit of man just as it does the body. This would mean the spirit is only alive when it has a body. We know this is not true and is contrary to the Bible. Jesus in Lk.23:46 said to the Father into your hands “I commit my spirit,” isn’t this clear he is having his spirit received into the Fathers hands while his body is to be laid in the tomb. This is the very same thing Stephen states in Acts 7:59 Stephen cried unto the Lord saying “receive my spirit.”

Jesus in Matt. 26:38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. He was not saying his soul was going to die and go to sleep.

We know the spirit needs the body because man is a living soul. When the spirit makes contact with the body the soul life is activated. This is what happened to man being created when God breathed the breath of life, directly creating man's spirit, into the body which formed the soul life. Man became a living soul. Man has a spirit, soul and body. Nowhere do we find in Scripture spirits of Christians flying around in Heaven without their bodies and without their souls. How strange that would be. How can your spirit's conscience and intuition and communion be separated from your body and your soul's mind, will and emotion? Are you two people? That does violence to Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23.

We know the Bible says nothing about Christians being in heaven already and even more, by the verses we do observe, leads to only one possible explanation, nobody is in the 3rd Heaven yet. So don't create a fantasy life for yourself otherwise you will self-induce upon your person visions and be open to the evil spirit's supernatural communications posing as loved ones. This is called necromancy. The Bible expressly forbids it.

For God to receive my spirit is not to contort the meaning by saying my spirit has gone some place other than my soul and body. If you do that then your soul operates without conscience and intuition and communion for your soul would be separated from your spirit. My spirit is resurrected in heaven right now, but that does not mean my spirit has be disemboweled from parts of my person. That's crazy. My spirit is in the heavenlies as a foretaste of resurrection. An analogy might help you to understand. A computer can be turned off and yet everything still stored in the chip and hard drive representing our spirit and soul. That chip and hard drive can even be separated from the casing of the computer and the motherboard to be given a new body. It's the same with us. The parts did not cease to exist. God is simply waiting to resurrect us together because He feels it is would be wrong for a bodiless part of Christians to be going on in heaven while so many are suffering now. That's illogical. What love is this?

DANGER: The danger of believing there is a party going on in heaven of spirit Christians without their souls' mind, will and emotions, is that you might want to die sooner and even look for ways to get martyred when of course that is not God's will.

James. 2:26: “the body without the Spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” Meaning only the body dies, as James uses the example that faith animates our works so the Spirit animates the body. The relationship between the material and immaterial when broken means we die physically. Our spirit is not dead like the body. The Spirit is just as alive outside the body as it is inside the body. The resurrection only applies to the body. When our spirit returns, our bodies come alive again. The correlation made is that real faith (which is invisible) is displayed to others by having works to show it is alive .

James is not saying that only the body goes to rest. The body does not go to rest at all, for it decays in the grave. Rather we are given a new and transformed resurrected body at the consummation of this age in 1 Thess. 4.15-17 when we are told we are all raptured together. Why do you reject this unless you have a party spirit which you need to be delivered from by the Holy Spirit.

What James is saying is that works without the Holy Spirit are dead works and impose death on the body. It is not saying the spirit and soul of man don't go to Hades where Lazarus went in the good side of Hades below. Lazarus' spirit and soul did not cease to exist, but rather, he was waiting the day of resurrection similar to the martyrs under the altar in the 5th seal. The reason why the spirit needs the body to be activated is because man is a tripartite being. Man is not a spirit being, but a soulical being with a spirit and a body. The resurrection, therefore, when it occurs, includes spirit, soul and body. Our spirit and soul are being held in a safe place by God. There is no party in 3rd Heaven running around naked without body or "white robe." That would be a sin. You're like an emperor with no clothes when you die in your theology and conscience. Party on!

FALSE WORKS: One type of false work might be those like I have seen engage in spiritual communications with people they know or even people they had not known before, claiming they are receiving messages from them in their resurrected spirits' without a body or even a soul. Fantasy life engendered by Satan, not accepting reality!

In Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus he was was not giving disinformation or representing them falsely. The rich man was very much aware of his misfortune as he suffered in Hades he had his thoughts (that temporary abode of the departed spirits of the wicked). While Lazarus enjoyed the blessedness of Paradise (Luke 16:19-31) It is obvious that the rich man is conscious, as Lazarus is conscious, and Abraham is conscious, though they are all dead. All the stories Jesus told always illustrated truth not something false. These two have recently died and one has been long dead. Indeed, their physical bodies are asleep but not their souls.

In Jn.11:11-14 Jesus says of Lazarus that he sleeps referring to his body. Jesus then says “I will wake him out of his sleep.” He then raised his body from the dead.

The Jews believed that Paradise below existed, quite different from Paradise above. That would be a strange kind of Paradise above where the Rich Man could see Lazarus in Heaven and Lazarus could look back and see the Rich Man tormented in fire. That's absurd! This is not the picture of Heaven we see in the Bible. We are told in the Bible, we will no longer shed a tear for the unsaved and they shall be forgotten. It's difficult to forget them when you are looking at them every day burning in fire.

God is allowed a literary style to anthropomorphize certain things to allow us to understand better in human terms. Even so, it's possible they were awake temporarily before being put to sleep to impart this message for us.

Lazarus was not in Heaven when Jesus resurrected Him. When I sleep, not referring to death, all my functions are quited and there is no communication with the outside world. A person who is asleep is not running around having a party in 3rd Heaven. Not just the body, but the soul and spirit are asleep. You have no grounds for your common teaching in the outward appearance of the kingdom so popularized today.

CONTRADICTION: You're saying the saints are in Heaven as soon as they die, but this does not reconcile with your theory of them being in Hades below where the Rich Man could see Lazarus. You can't be in two places at once. That's silly. Only God has this power for only God is omnipresent. Are you God?

In Mt.27:52 the Scripture tells us that at the time of of the resurrection “many bodies of the saints which slept arose.” The specific mention of bodies makes the meaning clear of what actually slept. It was not the saints themselves that slept but their bodies.

Who slept? "The saints which slept" and "needing their "bodies" to awake, not that they were awake already. You're inserting into the text your idea f the occult of spiritism, communicating with spirits that are not angels but past on souls from the grave. This leads to channeling spirits and familiar spirits.

The term “sleep” when it is used of death is in reference to the body. Whenever the Bible speaks of death in the sense of sleep it is always used of the physical body and not the soul. The term “sleep” is never applied to the soul or the spirit , but only the body. The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. whenever the Bible uses the term “sleep” in reference to death of the body. It is never used of the unbelievers in the NT. It is a term used only of believers which shows God's viewpoint of the death of a believer. From God's perspective the death of a believer is a temporary suspension of physical activity. For example, in physical sleep there is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one wakes up, but there is no suspension of the activity of the mind, the soul or spirit, and the sub-consciousness keeps operating (as in Lk.16:19-36 death is not a cessation of existence for either the rich man or Lazarus.)

Sleep is referring to "the saints" not just part of the saints. The body dies, thus putting the whole person in a state of rest because man needs the body. So the physical body, the soul and the spirit are all inclusive. You have assumed sleep only applies the body, but nowhere can you find in Scripture that the spirit and soul were not asleep awaiting resurrection. Our discussion is not whether the soul exists after death, but whether saints are running around in 3rd Heaven without bodies. We are not spirits like the angels. We are soulical beings with a spirit and a soul. We need bodies. Though sleep entails our bodies' death, in no way does it suggest the spirit and soul are partying it up right now and allowing communication with these alive/dead spirits. This sleep state applies to both the saved and the unsaved, not just to the saved, for both the Rich Man and Lazarus went into Hades below, except the timing and place of resurrection will be different. There is neither a party below nor a party above of saints. We shall be resurrected together. The key point is togetherness. And this should give you comfort but sadly, it does not.

Death is not only temporary cessation of physical activity (and certainly not roaming around in the 3rd Heaven), but it is a loss of communication. When someone is asleep they can't communicate. They need to be resurrected. You are focused on the physical overlooking the spiritual aspects of sleep also.

That would be a very uncomfortable state to be in that I couldn't move around physically but I am there locked in an immovable state like a person strapped up in an insane asylum. God is not cruel!

You're argument entails bearing false witness which should help you see that you have to rely on that instead of dealing with the issue we are living souls with spirits and bodies, not spirits like angels nor merely bodies with limited souls like animals. You said "death is not a cessation of existence for either the rich man or Lazarus" to which I have said many times I never said being asleep makes one cease to exist. That's called annihilation. I believe in the after-life. To rest is simply timeless unawares not ceasing to exist. Do you see the difference?

To the repentant thief, Jesus said He would seem him this day in paradise below, not Paradise above, for Jesus went to Hades below, so the repentant thief's spirit did not go immediately to Heaven as you claim for spirit communications with him. It would also seem like not even a day passed by when Jesus will resurrect him with the saints together because he will have spent all this time in timeless unawares. Amen. I love how God does things. That's how I would do it too!