Quote Originally Posted by JakobG View Post
Paul speaks of those who have died as "sleeping." Sleep in the NT was a common figure of speech for Christians who have died. (1 Thess 4:13). However, we see in Revelation, the dead are very much awake (Rev 6:9; 7:9-17) Paul said in Phil 1:23,24 that he had the desire to depart and be with Christ for that is very much better. He also says in 2 Cor 5 that to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. He wrote he was confident and willing to be absent in the body and present with Christ. Why would anyone want to be present with Christ, but asleep?
He is not saying it is better to be asleep or that being with Christ is being asleep. Try to understand. Absent from the body is present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5.8) has no need to mention the soul sleep in between, otherwise such explanation is cumbersome and out of context of what is being talked about in the passage. Same principle applies to Phil. 1.23,24. There is no need to mention soul sleep in these passages. Even if you rest 3000 years, when you awake you will not be cognizant one day had passed. "Concerning them which are asleep" (1 Thess. 4.13) indicates they are resting, awaiting to be resurrected. They literally are asleep and not in 3rd heaven. "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (v.17), none will be raised up (not even David a man after God's own heart); "that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep" (v.15).

Rev. 6.9 says nothing about those under the altar being awake yet, but God awakes them in verse 10 for the first rapture (they were martyrs), and "each of them was given a white robe (pointing to their resurrection for their own righteousness), and they were told to wait a little longer" (v.11) till the rest of those during the Tribulation period come in. It's a cascade effect from first rapture on. There will be many martyrs in the Tribulation, "that should be killed as they (as those martyrs from the past 20 centuries), should be fulfilled" (v.11). The sixth seal describes events leading right up the commencement of the Tribulation. The first raptured which includes the martyrs of the Church from the past twenty centuries (fifth seal) is accompanied by living overcomers raptured alive as well to come "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9), but the reason why the martyrs are mentioned in the 5th seal is because they are special in God's heart.

Note also that 7.9-17 only deals with rapture generally, not exclusively; and neither does it speak exclusively of the scene of eternal blessing. Consequently, we must not conclude that what is given here is indicative of the rapture of the whole church once and for all; for nothing is said as to how this vast multitude got there, it only states that they are there. In other words, first rapture commences at this point (this is when believers first begin to come before the throne, before the first trumpet of the Tribulation is blown (Rev. 8.7ff) and looks at all those who are saved as well, but does not address the timing for the latter.

So, to your appoint about them being alive, it is because they are resurrected at these points in these verses. They are not sleeping at these points in Scripture.

How can Moses and Elijah be talking with Jesus if they're supposed to be asleep? Mt.17
Because God can bring them out of sleep temporarily as He wills for a special purpose. It is the exception to the rule. Jesus was showing the kingdom has arrived and fulfilled the prophecy some would see Him in his kingdom before they died. His kingdom is unto resurrection, made alive from soul sleep. I think there can be some allusion here also to the future, the future resurrection. Remember, David a man after God's own heart Paul says is not in 3rd heaven yet. Always remember, "For David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2.34).

What about Mt. 22:31,32 where Jesus said: "Concerning the Resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Jesus is saying He is not the God of annihilation. He explains the "resurrection of the dead" in verse 31 by verse 32 that resurrection is His plan for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the God of resurrection of the living. Verse 34 mentions the Sadducee's which don't believe in the resurrection from the dead. So what Jesus said is perfectly in contrast (and in context) to what the Sadducee's believe. It was not an issue of are you resurrected and go to heaven the moment you die, for we are resurrected together. Otherwise, you get into necromancy and spirit communications which God forbids by people trying to access the latent power of their soul and strengthen their spirit's innerman unethically by the evil spirit's communications passing off as relatives and others who have passed on.

When we read Luke 16:22-25, many claim this passage is a parable, but if we look at the pattern Christ uses whenever He spoke in parables, He never not once used people's real names. Notice that, whereas Lazarus and the rich man have both died, their souls are NOT asleep. Rather, their souls are very much awake and aware. The same is true of Abraham.
The Rich Man is not a person's name. It's only temporary they are awake in Hades for the purposes of the explanation to show that if you are not willing to the listen to the prophets, you won't accept someone from the spirit realm to convince you to believe and receive God for you salvation. The Rich Man is acting like he would change his mind if he had only known, but the reality is he would not have changed his mind. With punishment comes eternal regret. I thought maybe a person who goes to Hell does so because he ultimately wants to be there, but it looks like Lazarus doesn't want to be there. However, when you think about it, he is still acting abusively, for he said, "send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue" (v.24). Now would that be fair to Lazarus to have to travel to the bad side of Hades on account of the Rich Man's foolishness? Lazarus deserves reward not further coddling to the rich people who cared not for the love of God. So the point is, though it may appear Rich Man does not want to be there, he actually does, because he is still behaving the same way unrepentantly and like an arrogant rich man. Furthermore, the Rich Man said "if some one goes from the dead..." (v.30) and Abraham confirmed "if some one should rise from the dead" (v.31) to indicate they are still asleep.

The pictures we are given of the faithful dead in Revelation shows them around the throne of God, not in some intermediate state (Rev 6-7).
Because first rapture has commenced at the consummation of this age from their "intermediate state."

In Rev 6 we read about believers who will be martyred during the tribulation. Notice they are very much awake, and crying out for justice. These martyrs, despite being "dead" have their own memories and fully recall what happened to them when they were alive on earth. This would all be imposible if they were "asleep".
We are coming full circle here now in our understanding. Those in Revelation 6 in the 5th seal are those who had been sleeping and martyred the past twenty centuries, then resurrected at the first rapture; and they make mention of those who will likewise be martyred in the Tribulation: "until their fellowservants also and their brethren" (v.11). But notice very carefully no mention is made of those who are martyred in the Tribulation will be alive the second they die. However, after first rapture has started then all other raptures are like the rapture of the Two Witnesses 3.5 days after they go to rest. The only exceptions are the last trumpet resurrection and the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years for the damned. If resurrection does not take place 3.5 days after those who die during the millennial kingdom, then they would be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years also.

"Rest yet for a little time" (Rev. 6.11)—This word alone may prove that the church cannot be raptured all at once, because this waiting implies a long and protracted persecution (7 years).

"Until their fellow-servants also and their brethren"—During the Great Tribulation there will be great slaughter. In 7.13-15 political persecution is spoken of, but 17.6 refers to religious persecution. The way for the church is through death.

The Bible only seems to imply that at the first rapture there is no resurrection. The phrase "underneath the altar" does not refer to death as a result of a sin-offering, rather it alludes to death as a consequence of a burnt-offering (Ex. 40.6,10,29; Lev. 4.7,10,18; 1 Chron. 6.49, 16.40, 21.29; 2 Chron. 29.18).

What men take note of is the sin-offering, but that which God sees first is the burnt-offering. Although without the Lord Jesus ever being the sin-offering we would none of us have life, nevertheless God will not accept anything without Christ being the burnt-offering—that is to say, His offering His all to God in obeying and doing God’s will. Here do we see that even His death on the cross is according to the will of God. In that same spirit of Christ Paul too offered himself as a burnt-offering (Phil. 2.17; 2 Tim. 4.6). Throughout his life he was a living sacrifice.

All the martyrs shall enter the kingdom to reign. Three classes of people will reign with Christ (20.4): (1) "thrones, and they sat upon them"—this refers to those people such as are cited in 3.21; (2) "them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God" (they are now resurrected at the point of first rapture)—here it is a reference to those people as are found mentioned in 6.11; and (3) "such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image"—this is referring to those fellow-servants and their brethren mentioned in 6.11 (they also are resurrected 3.5 days after they go to rest).