Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 45

Thread: Popularity of Historicism

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Church of
    Sherwood Park
    Posts
    3,515
    Blog Entries
    30
    Rep Power
    26

    Default

    Pete, respond to my specific points above for Rev. 17.8.

  2. #12
    PeteWaldo Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    Historicism is the name for all historical views such as preterism, partial preterism, postmillennialism and amillennialism.
    This might help you overcome your error.
    "Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism, Futurism and Idealism."
    Which are the 4 contexts.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...eschatology%29

    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    It even captures part of posttribulation rapture onlyism.
    I'm not familiar with such a doctrine.
    Is this how you refer to the gathering of the elect at "the last trump"?

    1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    We. If there's any "they" group I am quite confident I wouldn't want to be in it!

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Count me in the "we"s again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    Historicism simply means you treat most of the book of Revelation as already fulfilled.
    The continuous historic view means that folks like myself understand that we should expect New Testament prophecy to be fulfilled in the very same manner in which we all understand that Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled. We join the ranks of those great men of the reformation.
    As we now find ourselves in Daniel's "time of the end" I do indeed believe that much of the prophecy of the New Testament, and Revelation, has been fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    Whereas the futurist position says anywhere from up to chapter 3 to chapter 6 have been fulfilled.

    Since the Roman Church first introduced amillennialism, it belongs here.

    All historicism is wrong including your amillennialism.
    The Roman Church and Orthodoxy hold primarily partial preterist views believing Rev fulfilled in the first century with the exception of Christ's return. Some suggesting that Nero was "The" "Antichrist"

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    261
    Blog Entries
    5
    Rep Power
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteWaldo View Post
    Review the post again. There is no need to add confusion like this for no reason. We were both talking about THE false prophet. How does Mohammed's being dead preclude him from being the false prophet? How does the two-horned beast of Rev 13 become a man, let alone a false prophet?
    Oh I see what you mean. You think he is THE False Prophet. That surprised me because the Bible is clear THE False Prophet comes at the end of this age.

    Revelation 13 hasn't happened yet obviously, since first rapture hasn't taken place (Rev. 7.9). Revelation is about future things especially the end of this age.

    "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon" (Rev. 13.11).

    This beast is also a wild beast. Because he is to come up out of the earth he must also be a re-vitalized person, since Hades is beneath the earth. On the other hand, "earth" may have reference to the Jewish nation. The Scriptures often classify the earth as being symbolic of the nation of Israel.

    This beast is the false prophet. He is a person since (1) three times the Bible calls him the false prophet (16.13, 19.20, 20.10), (2) the Lord has clearly stated that there will be false prophets (Matt. 24.24), and (3) there are three evil spirits: Satan, the beast (Antichrist), and another beast (the false prophet). Each has his mission to fulfill. Thus this beast cannot be a system but a person. At the time of evil, we have the counterfeit of the triune God.

    "Two horns"—Since this beast is a person and not a kingdom, his two horns should signify two spirits; for the horns of the Lamb are referred to as being the Spirit of God (5.6), and the horns of the beast are like to those of the Lamb. "To give breath to it" (13.15) may be translated "to give spirit to it"; this is one spirit, and 16.13 tells of another spirit.

    "And he spake as a dragon"—His speech is both deceitful and atrocious. Just as the first beast sits on the throne of the dragon, so this beast speaks the word of the dragon.

    "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed" (Rev. 13.12).

    This second beast works by means of the authority of the first beast. As the Holy Spirit is the executor as well as the power in the Godhead, so the false prophet is the executor and the power of the trio of evil. "To worship" here is compulsory, unlike that mentioned in 13.4 which is voluntary.

    There are many evidences to link the first beast with the revitalization of Nero. This second beast may very well be the return from the dead of the betrayer Judas. Acts 1.20, Psalm 69.25 and Psalm 109.8 all point to Judas, for Acts 1.20 quotes from Psalms 69 and 109. Psalm 109.6 declares: "Let Satan stand at his right hand" (mg.)—This is yet to be fulfilled. At the time of Christ, Satan entered into the heart of Judas; but not until the time of Revelation 13.12 will Satan stand at his right hand. We are also told in Acts 1: "that he might go to his own place" (v.25). Concerning other individuals the Scriptures always say he is "gathered to his own people" or that "he is gone down into sheol"; but in the case of Judas we are told that "he might go to his own place"—as though he has a special place set aside for his use. In the entire New Testament the term "son of perdition" is only used twice: one is found in John 17.12 which distinctly points to Judas, and the other is found in 2 Thessalonians 2.3 which alludes to Antichrist. If the first beast is Antichrist, the son of perdition, who else can be the second beast except Judas who also is called the son of perdition? In John 6 the Lord is recorded as calling Judas "a devil" (v.70). So then, who but Judas can rank among the trio of evil?

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    261
    Blog Entries
    5
    Rep Power
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteWaldo View Post
    This might help you overcome your error.
    "Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism, Futurism and Idealism."
    Which are the 4 contexts.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...eschatology%29
    "Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism, Futurism and Idealism"

    Hence, historicism includes your view: amillennialism. I know preterism is not called historicism in some circles, but I throw it in anyway, because they treat the book of Revelation mostly fulfilled.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    261
    Blog Entries
    5
    Rep Power
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteWaldo View Post
    The continuous historic view means that folks like myself understand that we should expect New Testament prophecy to be fulfilled in the very same manner in which we all understand that Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled. We join the ranks of those great men of the reformation. As we now find ourselves in Daniel's "time of the end" I do indeed believe that much of the prophecy of the New Testament, and Revelation, has been fulfilled.
    I know everyone claims the Reformation for their own particular teaching, hence the Laodicean last church period of "differing opinions." We are not in Daniel's last seven yet. It commences when millions of overcomer believers are raptured according to readiness (Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10, 12.5). First rapture triggers it because Satan reacts, knowing His time is real short. It's due to the fact the Church has reached its pinnacle. No more can it attain till Christ returns in Person. Those first raptured are the advanced party.

  6. #16
    PeteWaldo Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    I know everyone claims the Reformation for their own particular teaching, hence the Laodicean last church period of "differing opinions." We are not in Daniel's last seven yet. It commences when millions of overcomer believers are raptured according to readiness (Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10, 12.5). First rapture triggers it because Satan reacts, knowing His time is real short. It's due to the fact the Church has reached its pinnacle. No more can it attain till Christ returns in Person.
    Why do you suppose the church never saw the pre-trib rapture doctrine before Darby's pen? If you believe it did check with RaptureReady.com and Thomas Ice Pre-trib Rapture Center sites and review the historical record of that doctrine in the church they present.
    Nobody has bigger axes to grind than those folks do.

  7. #17
    PeteWaldo Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    Pete, respond to my specific points above for Rev. 17.8.
    Can you first answer the only question I asked of you, before that, at the end of the OP?

    Where is the temple of God?

  8. #18
    PeteWaldo Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    Pete, respond to my specific points above for Rev. 17.8.
    Let's start with your premise. You wrote

    "The Antichrist is described as a living person, not some memory of a dead person of some religion."


    Show me where you draw that conclusion through the only 4 verses in scripture that contain the term.

    1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
    1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
    1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    261
    Blog Entries
    5
    Rep Power
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteWaldo View Post
    What does the first beast of Rev 13 as a man have to do with a lion, bear and leopard?
    "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy" (Rev. 13.1)

    13.1 “Ten horns” represent ten minor kings (17.12), while “seven heads” speak of seven supreme kings (17.10). Since the heads are bigger than the horns and the latter are on the heads, the seven heads and ten horns must stand for seven emperors and ten kings.

    The “seven heads” indicate seven successive emperors, whereas the “ten horns” speak of ten contemporary kings. (Altogether, the ancient Roman Empire had thirteen Caesars, among whom five, at the time of John the Apostle, died violently. The term “fallen” (17.10) in the original bears in it the sense of a violent death. The sixth Caesar, Domitian, it should be recalled, was also slain. And the seventh one will likewise be killed. So that all seven Roman Emperors mentioned by God do not die peacefully. The ten horns are but subordinate kings to Rome.)

    Antichrist is the beast as well as the seventh head. 12.3 reads: “Upon his heads seven diadems”; and the next chapter says: “On his horns ten diadems” (13.1). Antichrist in the days to come will arise from the revived Roman Empire so as to gain control over Europe. According to the historical narration the ten kings alluded to in 12.3 are not yet crowned, nor do they have authority. But after these ten kings are crowned and receive authority they will crown the beast. And thus Antichrist gains authority at that very time.

    “Blasphemy”—Whatever exalts oneself and abases God is blasphemy (see Matt. 9.3, 26.65; John 5.18, 10.33; Mark 3.28; Rev. 16.21).

    “Upon his heads names of blasphemy”—It means that these heads call themselves gods. History informs us that the first five Caesars in the Roman Empire demanded the people to worship them as gods.

    "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority" (Rev. 13.2).

    13.2 “Leopard”—In order to understand this section we must read Daniel 2.31-33 and 7.3-8. By so doing we learn that (1) the lion is the golden head in Nebuchadnezzar’s image, (2) the bear is Medo- Persia—the breast of silver, (3) the leopard has a belly of brass and thus represents Greece, and (4) the fourth beast, terrible and powerful, which was diverse from the other beasts, has the legs of iron—which is the Roman Empire. Babylon is terrible in war, Medo-Persia is slow but savage, Greece is ferocious, and Rome is cruel.

    The beast of 13.2 possesses all four bad characters. In fact, it is the composite of all the powers of the nations. The book of Revelation speaks of the Lord Jesus as the Lamb 28 times, and the beast it speaks of as the wild beast 36 times.

    God will make use of the beast to judge the world (Jer. 5.6, Hosea 13.7, Hab. 1.8). The leopard has spots, thus signifying having sins (Jer. 13.23). Both the bear and the lion tore people apart (see 2 Kings 2.24 on how the bears tore up the 42 lads, read Daniel 6.22 on how God sealed the mouths of the lions against Daniel, and read 2 Tim. 4.17 on how God delivered Paul out of the lion’s mouth).

    The beast we read about in 13.2 points to a kingdom because it has seven heads and ten horns. According to 17.9,10,12 a kingdom is no doubt meant. The lion, the bear and the leopard mentioned in Daniel 7 are all symbolic of kingdoms; and hence the fourth beast must also be a kingdom—that of the Roman Empire.

    But the beast of 13.2 likewise refers to a person. The term “fallen” used in 17.8-11 means meeting violent death, and the one who still remained at the time of the Apostle John was Domitian; therefore the beast spoken of in 19.20 and 20.10 is no doubt a man with personality. God does not cast a kingdom into the lake of fire.

    "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev. 13.3,14).

    13.3,14 “As though it had been smitten unto death”—The image must be that of a man, for Antichrist is a human being. The dragon counterfeits God; the beast, Christ; and the false prophet, the Holy Spirit.

    The false father also gives authority to the false son so that the latter may have the power to perform lying wonders (2 Thess. 2.9). The phrase “lying wonders” does not mean to convey the idea that these wonders are false; it simply means that the purpose of these wonders is to deceive people.

    “His throne” (13.2)—This indicates that there must be a kingdom. No kingdom, then no throne. The dragon revives the Roman Empire and gives it to the false christ.

    Note that 13.3 says this: “as though it had been smitten unto death”; and chapter 13 further comments on it by saying: “the stroke of the sword” (v.14). In connection with 17.7,8, it should be noted that John wrote this book of Revelation in approximately 96 A.D. Hence the word “was” must refer to the time before 96 A.D.; “is not”, to the time when John wrote this book; and “is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition”, to the time in the future. According to 17.9-11, “the five are fallen, the one is” (this latter one, at the time of John, was Domitian); “the other is not yet come” (one wonders if he is now already in the world, but only waiting to be manifested).

    Judging by the words in verse 11, there are seven souls, seven bodies; yet eight live, for the eighth one is also one of the original seven. He must have died and is to be reanimated in the days to come. There will arise a most powerful person who will revive the Roman Empire and become the leader of a confederacy of ten kingdoms. He will be killed, but he will also be reanimated. Thus, the whole world will consider him as god. Actually, he is not resurrected in the real sense; he is only reanimated by the entering into his body of the soul of one of the former Emperors.

    Many people do not believe in the resurrection of Christ, and yet they all shall believe in the reanimation of Antichrist.

    "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" (Rev. 13.4)

    13.4 Antichrist is so influential because the dragon is backing him. People worship the beast because they consider him superior both in personality and power.

    "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months" (Rev. 13.5).

    13.5 “Speaking great things”—that is, exalting one’s own self; “and blasphemies”—defying God. The “authority” given, as mentioned in this verse, is permitted by God and is of a restricted nature. The number “forty and two” is the multiplication of seven and six. Seven is a perfect number, but six is a satanic one. We notice that in Numbers there were 42 stations from the Exodus to Canaan; and in 2 Kings we note that the bears tore up 42 lads: in the Bible the number 42 stands for wandering and judgment. In reading 2 Thessalonians 2.9-11 we learn the reason God allows Satan to go on a rampage for 42 months. The word “lie” in verse 11 has a definite article before it in the original Greek. It should therefore properly be read as “the lie”, which may refer back to Genesis 3 where we read that Satan lied by saying “shall not surely” and “shall be as God” (vv.4,5).

    "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven" (Rev. 13.6).

    13.6 The first thing the beast does is to blaspheme God, for the name of God includes all the personality, nature, and authority of God. The phrase “his tabernacle” points to heaven.

    "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev. 13.7).

    13.7 “To make war with the saints”—These latter are the Christians who are kept behind and those Jews who are faithful to God. The influence of the beast is world wide, though his kingdom is limited to the revived Roman Empire.

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13.8).

    13.8 This verse proves that there will yet be Christians on earth, for there will still be people whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. It is by the power of God’s election that they are being kept from succumbing to temptation.

    "If any man have an ear, let him hear" (Rev. 13.9).

    13.9 “If any man hath an ear, let him hear”—In the time of chapters 2 and 3 the churches still hold their position as such, hence each time there is added the clause: “what the Spirit saith to the churches”; here, though, only some Christians still remain behind, and therefore the exhortation simply reads: “If any man hath an ear, let him hear.”

    "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Rev. 13.10).

    13.10 Christians cannot rise up, as the Crusaders did, to fight against their enemies. They can only practice patience. If they lose their patience they will lose their faith. Losing faith does not mean losing eternal life.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    261
    Blog Entries
    5
    Rep Power
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteWaldo View Post
    Where is the temple of God?
    It depends. Which verse are you referring to?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Popularity Contests
    By Scriptur in forum Dividing Spirit, Soul, Body
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-16-2007, 12:07 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •