Popularity of Historicism

[PeteWaldo]

Darby was correct.

I held the doctrine myself for quite a few years, and it might be best if we could set this discussion aside and focus on Islam vs Christianity. This isn't why I came here, but rather than my own words let me start with a quote from Dr. Harry Ironside of Moody Bible Institute who was no lightweight when it comes to futurist doctrine. In his Mysteries of God he wrote on p.50: ". . . until brought to the fore through the writings of . . . Mr. J. N. Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [ie. 7 year tribulation pre-trib "rapture"] is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines . . . the literature of the reformation . . . the Puritans. He will find the 'mystery' conspicuous by its absence."

Don't we have to wonder how the church could have missed what Darby taught for 1800 years? It would be hard to make the case that it was the unsealing of the book of Daniel, unless the mid-19th century was within Daniel's "time of the end", wouldn't it?

More importantly it's interesting to note that the two most popular eschatologies in the 20th century church, partial preterism and futurism, both necessarily preclude that Mohammed could be the false prophet of Revelation. One making him a fixture of the first century and the other a figure of some future someday. Yet each view must believe the other to be virtually 100% wrong in regard to their understanding of the book of Revelation after chapter 3, because there is a gulf of 1900 years that divides the two views.

This, even as 1/4 of mankind - 1.5 billion people - follow the false prophet Mohammed today, as his minions have for 1400 years, specifically with the single most important fundamental of his religion being antichrist. Each and every Muslim filled with the spirit of antichrist. With the addition of one of the next most important fundamentals being denying the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
The only anti-another-religion, religion, by design. The enemy's design.

Yet virtually all Christians and Jews understand Old Testament prophecy through the continuous-historic context. That is that prophecy is fulfilled steadily as the era about which is is written gradually unfolds. For example our understanding that Daniel's kingdom "beasts" were a succession of kingdoms that followed each other gradually over hundreds of years in the prophet's future.

Where is the temple of God?

[Nottheworld]

You are going to be deceived by the Antichrist because he is a concept to you, not a living breathing person at the consummation of this age. You'll be taken up and deceived by a great man because he is fulfilling amillennial visions for the future.

There were lots of premillennialists each century even though the Roman Church grew stronger and stronger and still powerful today. I even have quotes of partial rapture premillennialists from many of the centuries. But your true test is what did the earliest church fathers teach? They mostly taught chiliasm which is premillennialism. Still amillennialism is the most popular with Eastern Orthodox, Lutheranism, Roman Church and other denominations, but it wasn't so in the beginning and certainly not in Scripture.

1000 years will end at some point. The nations are still deceived which they won't be in the 1000 years. We are currently in Revelation 6. First rapture takes place at Revelation 7.9. Revelation 4 is the picture today of the universe from heaven. And Revelation recounts the cross with the 1st seal where you see the bow without an arrow which looks like the cross giving Satan a deadly wound.

Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet. Oprah Winfrey is the best contestant for the False Prophet. And Barack Hussein Obama is the most likely candidate for the Antichrist.

Yes preterism is wrong, Jesus has not returned. He is not reigning with an iron rod, just as amillennialism is wrong because we are not in the 1000 years. If we were the nations would not still be warring (see Rev. 20.3) and Jesus would have returned by now.

Your teaching is called antinomianism, because there is no accountability for believers during the time of recompense. This will make you sluff off.

The Antichrist is described as a living person, not some memory of a dead person of some religion.

In the book of Revelation the first beast represents Antichrist as well as the Roman Empire.

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17.8).

In this connection, though, it points to a man, not to a state. The reasons for this view are as follows:

(1) This beast “was”—How then can we say that the Roman Empire once existed earlier prior to the time of John?

(2) The beast “is not”—Yet neither can we say that the Roman Empire did not exist at John’s time.

(3) The beast “is about to come up out of the abyss”—Abyss is the place where the spirits are imprisoned. How can we therefore say that the Roman Empire is about to come out of the abyss?

(4) The beast is “to go into perdition”—How, moreover, can we say that the political entity known as the Roman Empire will go into hell in the future?

Since, from this reasoning, this beast cannot apply to the Roman Empire, it must have reference to Antichrist. “Was” shows that before the time of John there was such a person who once lived on earth.

“Is not” indicates that at John’s time this man is not in the world since he must have died. The phrase “is not” is also used in Genesis 42.36-38 to indicate death.

“Is about to come up out of the abyss” reveals that he is now in the abyss but will come out of it, that is to say, he will be resuscitated.
“Go into perdition” discloses that he will not live forever on earth, neither can he rule forever, because his destiny will be that of being cast into the lake of fire (19.20, 20.10).

His being “was, and is not, and is about to come” is a clever counterfeiting of God “who is and who was and who is to come” (cf. 1.4,8; 4.8).

“And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder”—And this wonderment will eventually lead them to worship the beast (13.12). Only those whom God has chosen will be kept. All whose names have been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be preserved by God and kept from worshiping the beast.

[PeteWaldo]

Sorry, I didn't see these messages piling up.

You are going to be deceived by the Antichrist because he is a concept to you, not a living breathing person at the consummation of this age. You'll be taken up and deceived by a great man because he is fulfilling amillennial visions for the future.

But from where I stand I see virtually the whole western church blind to the fact that there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today. Though it's probably not lost in the tribulation of the 2 billion slain, in the Sudan alone.



So who's deceived? Do any of the 4 verses that contain the term antichrist indicate a single individual?
If so please show me. (Let's use the KJV rather than some pop-bible)

[Nottheworld]

Christendom may be deceived but not the Church-body of Christ. Just because you may not be deceived by Islam, doesn't mean you are not going to be deceived by the Antichrist. If your eye is on Islam and not observing the rise of the Antichrist from within Christendom you will be fooled.

In Rev. 2 & 3, the first series of church letters was written before “the last days”; on the other hand, the latter set was written during “the last days.” 1 John 2.18, for example, clearly mentions another time—“the last hour”: “Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that Antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.” Christians who only read the first series of Church letters will not be able to understand God’s will for the last days. The last 4 church mentalities are still with us.

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son" (1 John 2.22).

This is not specifically referring to the Antichrist.

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world" (1 John 4.3).

These are antichrists not the Antichrist.

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" (2 John 1.7).

They are antichrists.

Of these 4 verses, only 1 John 2.18 speaks directly of the Antichrist in the last hour (Daniel's last seven).

[PeteWaldo]

Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet.

Why does that preclude him from being the false prophet?

[Nottheworld]

Why does that preclude him from being the false prophet?

Where did I say he is precluded from being a false prophet? I said, "Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet", the 2nd beast in Revelation.

[PeteWaldo]

Where did I say he is precluded from being a false prophet?

Review the post again. There is no need to add confusion like this for no reason. We were both talking about THE false prophet.

I said, "Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet", the 2nd beast in Revelation.

How does Mohammed's being dead preclude him from being the false prophet?
How does the two-horned beast of Rev 13 become a man, let alone a false prophet?
What does the first beast of Rev 13 as a man have to do with a lion, bear and leopard?

[Nottheworld]

Review the post again. There is no need to add confusion like this for no reason. We were both talking about THE false prophet. How does Mohammed's being dead preclude him from being the false prophet? How does the two-horned beast of Rev 13 become a man, let alone a false prophet?

Oh I see what you mean. You think he is THE False Prophet. That surprised me because the Bible is clear THE False Prophet comes at the end of this age.

Revelation 13 hasn't happened yet obviously, since first rapture hasn't taken place (Rev. 7.9). Revelation is about future things especially the end of this age.

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon" (Rev. 13.11).

This beast is also a wild beast. Because he is to come up out of the earth he must also be a re-vitalized person, since Hades is beneath the earth. On the other hand, "earth" may have reference to the Jewish nation. The Scriptures often classify the earth as being symbolic of the nation of Israel.

This beast is the false prophet. He is a person since (1) three times the Bible calls him the false prophet (16.13, 19.20, 20.10), (2) the Lord has clearly stated that there will be false prophets (Matt. 24.24), and (3) there are three evil spirits: Satan, the beast (Antichrist), and another beast (the false prophet). Each has his mission to fulfill. Thus this beast cannot be a system but a person. At the time of evil, we have the counterfeit of the triune God.

"Two horns"—Since this beast is a person and not a kingdom, his two horns should signify two spirits; for the horns of the Lamb are referred to as being the Spirit of God (5.6), and the horns of the beast are like to those of the Lamb. "To give breath to it" (13.15) may be translated "to give spirit to it"; this is one spirit, and 16.13 tells of another spirit.

"And he spake as a dragon"—His speech is both deceitful and atrocious. Just as the first beast sits on the throne of the dragon, so this beast speaks the word of the dragon.

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed" (Rev. 13.12).

This second beast works by means of the authority of the first beast. As the Holy Spirit is the executor as well as the power in the Godhead, so the false prophet is the executor and the power of the trio of evil. "To worship" here is compulsory, unlike that mentioned in 13.4 which is voluntary.

There are many evidences to link the first beast with the revitalization of Nero. This second beast may very well be the return from the dead of the betrayer Judas. Acts 1.20, Psalm 69.25 and Psalm 109.8 all point to Judas, for Acts 1.20 quotes from Psalms 69 and 109. Psalm 109.6 declares: "Let Satan stand at his right hand" (mg.)—This is yet to be fulfilled. At the time of Christ, Satan entered into the heart of Judas; but not until the time of Revelation 13.12 will Satan stand at his right hand. We are also told in Acts 1: "that he might go to his own place" (v.25). Concerning other individuals the Scriptures always say he is "gathered to his own people" or that "he is gone down into sheol"; but in the case of Judas we are told that "he might go to his own place"—as though he has a special place set aside for his use. In the entire New Testament the term "son of perdition" is only used twice: one is found in John 17.12 which distinctly points to Judas, and the other is found in 2 Thessalonians 2.3 which alludes to Antichrist. If the first beast is Antichrist, the son of perdition, who else can be the second beast except Judas who also is called the son of perdition? In John 6 the Lord is recorded as calling Judas "a devil" (v.70). So then, who but Judas can rank among the trio of evil?

[Nottheworld]

What does the first beast of Rev 13 as a man have to do with a lion, bear and leopard?

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy" (Rev. 13.1)

13.1 “Ten horns” represent ten minor kings (17.12), while “seven heads” speak of seven supreme kings (17.10). Since the heads are bigger than the horns and the latter are on the heads, the seven heads and ten horns must stand for seven emperors and ten kings.

The “seven heads” indicate seven successive emperors, whereas the “ten horns” speak of ten contemporary kings. (Altogether, the ancient Roman Empire had thirteen Caesars, among whom five, at the time of John the Apostle, died violently. The term “fallen” (17.10) in the original bears in it the sense of a violent death. The sixth Caesar, Domitian, it should be recalled, was also slain. And the seventh one will likewise be killed. So that all seven Roman Emperors mentioned by God do not die peacefully. The ten horns are but subordinate kings to Rome.)

Antichrist is the beast as well as the seventh head. 12.3 reads: “Upon his heads seven diadems”; and the next chapter says: “On his horns ten diadems” (13.1). Antichrist in the days to come will arise from the revived Roman Empire so as to gain control over Europe. According to the historical narration the ten kings alluded to in 12.3 are not yet crowned, nor do they have authority. But after these ten kings are crowned and receive authority they will crown the beast. And thus Antichrist gains authority at that very time.

“Blasphemy”—Whatever exalts oneself and abases God is blasphemy (see Matt. 9.3, 26.65; John 5.18, 10.33; Mark 3.28; Rev. 16.21).

“Upon his heads names of blasphemy”—It means that these heads call themselves gods. History informs us that the first five Caesars in the Roman Empire demanded the people to worship them as gods.

"And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority" (Rev. 13.2).

13.2 “Leopard”—In order to understand this section we must read Daniel 2.31-33 and 7.3-8. By so doing we learn that (1) the lion is the golden head in Nebuchadnezzar’s image, (2) the bear is Medo- Persia—the breast of silver, (3) the leopard has a belly of brass and thus represents Greece, and (4) the fourth beast, terrible and powerful, which was diverse from the other beasts, has the legs of iron—which is the Roman Empire. Babylon is terrible in war, Medo-Persia is slow but savage, Greece is ferocious, and Rome is cruel.

The beast of 13.2 possesses all four bad characters. In fact, it is the composite of all the powers of the nations. The book of Revelation speaks of the Lord Jesus as the Lamb 28 times, and the beast it speaks of as the wild beast 36 times.

God will make use of the beast to judge the world (Jer. 5.6, Hosea 13.7, Hab. 1.8). The leopard has spots, thus signifying having sins (Jer. 13.23). Both the bear and the lion tore people apart (see 2 Kings 2.24 on how the bears tore up the 42 lads, read Daniel 6.22 on how God sealed the mouths of the lions against Daniel, and read 2 Tim. 4.17 on how God delivered Paul out of the lion’s mouth).

The beast we read about in 13.2 points to a kingdom because it has seven heads and ten horns. According to 17.9,10,12 a kingdom is no doubt meant. The lion, the bear and the leopard mentioned in Daniel 7 are all symbolic of kingdoms; and hence the fourth beast must also be a kingdom—that of the Roman Empire.

But the beast of 13.2 likewise refers to a person. The term “fallen” used in 17.8-11 means meeting violent death, and the one who still remained at the time of the Apostle John was Domitian; therefore the beast spoken of in 19.20 and 20.10 is no doubt a man with personality. God does not cast a kingdom into the lake of fire.

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev. 13.3,14).

13.3,14 “As though it had been smitten unto death”—The image must be that of a man, for Antichrist is a human being. The dragon counterfeits God; the beast, Christ; and the false prophet, the Holy Spirit.

The false father also gives authority to the false son so that the latter may have the power to perform lying wonders (2 Thess. 2.9). The phrase “lying wonders” does not mean to convey the idea that these wonders are false; it simply means that the purpose of these wonders is to deceive people.

“His throne” (13.2)—This indicates that there must be a kingdom. No kingdom, then no throne. The dragon revives the Roman Empire and gives it to the false christ.

Note that 13.3 says this: “as though it had been smitten unto death”; and chapter 13 further comments on it by saying: “the stroke of the sword” (v.14). In connection with 17.7,8, it should be noted that John wrote this book of Revelation in approximately 96 A.D. Hence the word “was” must refer to the time before 96 A.D.; “is not”, to the time when John wrote this book; and “is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition”, to the time in the future. According to 17.9-11, “the five are fallen, the one is” (this latter one, at the time of John, was Domitian); “the other is not yet come” (one wonders if he is now already in the world, but only waiting to be manifested).

Judging by the words in verse 11, there are seven souls, seven bodies; yet eight live, for the eighth one is also one of the original seven. He must have died and is to be reanimated in the days to come. There will arise a most powerful person who will revive the Roman Empire and become the leader of a confederacy of ten kingdoms. He will be killed, but he will also be reanimated. Thus, the whole world will consider him as god. Actually, he is not resurrected in the real sense; he is only reanimated by the entering into his body of the soul of one of the former Emperors.

Many people do not believe in the resurrection of Christ, and yet they all shall believe in the reanimation of Antichrist.

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" (Rev. 13.4)

13.4 Antichrist is so influential because the dragon is backing him. People worship the beast because they consider him superior both in personality and power.

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months" (Rev. 13.5).

13.5 “Speaking great things”—that is, exalting one’s own self; “and blasphemies”—defying God. The “authority” given, as mentioned in this verse, is permitted by God and is of a restricted nature. The number “forty and two” is the multiplication of seven and six. Seven is a perfect number, but six is a satanic one. We notice that in Numbers there were 42 stations from the Exodus to Canaan; and in 2 Kings we note that the bears tore up 42 lads: in the Bible the number 42 stands for wandering and judgment. In reading 2 Thessalonians 2.9-11 we learn the reason God allows Satan to go on a rampage for 42 months. The word “lie” in verse 11 has a definite article before it in the original Greek. It should therefore properly be read as “the lie”, which may refer back to Genesis 3 where we read that Satan lied by saying “shall not surely” and “shall be as God” (vv.4,5).

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven" (Rev. 13.6).

13.6 The first thing the beast does is to blaspheme God, for the name of God includes all the personality, nature, and authority of God. The phrase “his tabernacle” points to heaven.

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev. 13.7).

13.7 “To make war with the saints”—These latter are the Christians who are kept behind and those Jews who are faithful to God. The influence of the beast is world wide, though his kingdom is limited to the revived Roman Empire.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13.8).

13.8 This verse proves that there will yet be Christians on earth, for there will still be people whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. It is by the power of God’s election that they are being kept from succumbing to temptation.

"If any man have an ear, let him hear" (Rev. 13.9).

13.9 “If any man hath an ear, let him hear”—In the time of chapters 2 and 3 the churches still hold their position as such, hence each time there is added the clause: “what the Spirit saith to the churches”; here, though, only some Christians still remain behind, and therefore the exhortation simply reads: “If any man hath an ear, let him hear.”

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Rev. 13.10).

13.10 Christians cannot rise up, as the Crusaders did, to fight against their enemies. They can only practice patience. If they lose their patience they will lose their faith. Losing faith does not mean losing eternal life.

[PeteWaldo]

In the book of Revelation the first beast represents Antichrist as well as the Roman Empire.

Daniel defined the term "beast" when used in the figurative language of a vision or dream in prophecy. Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth...

Where do you find it redifined in the same context of a dream or vision in scripture?

BEAST = KINGDOM

Daniel's lion, bear and leopard kingdom "beasts" are understood broadly among Christians and Jews, as being the successive kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. These figures reappear together in scripture only one more time - in Revelation Chapter 13 - but combined into a single composite "beast" - kingdom.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Daniel's also assigned the masculine gender to kingdom beasts)

The reverse order was perhaps because Daniel was forward looking at these kingdoms to unfold in his future, while John was looking backward at their fulfillment. The seats of the ancient successive kingdom beasts of Daniel's lion, bear and leopard which are widely believed to be Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, are occupied today by the countries of Iraq, Iran, and Syria/Lebanon. The dragon in the verse above is Satan that gave this Islamic beast his seat.

It is described "as a leopard" perhaps because while an individual Muslim can change, it is impossible for Islam to change, as long as the Quran (mouth) exists:

Jerimiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

While these countries and various sects of Islam may have differences, and some with national sovereignty, they are perfectly united spiritually through the false prophet Mohammed and his Quran. As a result they are filled with the spirit of antichrist because their belief that God has no Son, or "shirk", is the most important fundamental in Islam.
Iraq 97%, Iran 98%, Syria/Lebanon 90%/60% Islamic.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Once we understand the Islamic empire as the "beast" of revelation 13 the identity of the false prophet Mohammed comes sharply into focus.







The leopard-bear-lion