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Thread: Popularity of Historicism

  1. #1
    PeteWaldo Guest

    Default Popularity of Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    Darby was correct.
    I held the doctrine myself for quite a few years, and it might be best if we could set this discussion aside and focus on Islam vs Christianity. This isn't why I came here, but rather than my own words let me start with a quote from Dr. Harry Ironside of Moody Bible Institute who was no lightweight when it comes to futurist doctrine. In his Mysteries of God he wrote on p.50: ". . . until brought to the fore through the writings of . . . Mr. J. N. Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [ie. 7 year tribulation pre-trib "rapture"] is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines . . . the literature of the reformation . . . the Puritans. He will find the 'mystery' conspicuous by its absence."

    Don't we have to wonder how the church could have missed what Darby taught for 1800 years? It would be hard to make the case that it was the unsealing of the book of Daniel, unless the mid-19th century was within Daniel's "time of the end", wouldn't it?

    More importantly it's interesting to note that the two most popular eschatologies in the 20th century church, partial preterism and futurism, both necessarily preclude that Mohammed could be the false prophet of Revelation. One making him a fixture of the first century and the other a figure of some future someday. Yet each view must believe the other to be virtually 100% wrong in regard to their understanding of the book of Revelation after chapter 3, because there is a gulf of 1900 years that divides the two views.

    This, even as 1/4 of mankind - 1.5 billion people - follow the false prophet Mohammed today, as his minions have for 1400 years, specifically with the single most important fundamental of his religion being antichrist. Each and every Muslim filled with the spirit of antichrist. With the addition of one of the next most important fundamentals being denying the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
    The only anti-another-religion, religion, by design. The enemy's design.

    Yet virtually all Christians and Jews understand Old Testament prophecy through the continuous-historic context. That is that prophecy is fulfilled steadily as the era about which is is written gradually unfolds. For example our understanding that Daniel's kingdom "beasts" were a succession of kingdoms that followed each other gradually over hundreds of years in the prophet's future.

    Where is the temple of God?

  2. #2
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    You are going to be deceived by the Antichrist because he is a concept to you, not a living breathing person at the consummation of this age. You'll be taken up and deceived by a great man because he is fulfilling amillennial visions for the future.

    There were lots of premillennialists each century even though the Roman Church grew stronger and stronger and still powerful today. I even have quotes of partial rapture premillennialists from many of the centuries. But your true test is what did the earliest church fathers teach? They mostly taught chiliasm which is premillennialism. Still amillennialism is the most popular with Eastern Orthodox, Lutheranism, Roman Church and other denominations, but it wasn't so in the beginning and certainly not in Scripture.

    1000 years will end at some point. The nations are still deceived which they won't be in the 1000 years. We are currently in Revelation 6. First rapture takes place at Revelation 7.9. Revelation 4 is the picture today of the universe from heaven. And Revelation recounts the cross with the 1st seal where you see the bow without an arrow which looks like the cross giving Satan a deadly wound.

    Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet. Oprah Winfrey is the best contestant for the False Prophet. And Barack Hussein Obama is the most likely candidate for the Antichrist.

    Yes preterism is wrong, Jesus has not returned. He is not reigning with an iron rod, just as amillennialism is wrong because we are not in the 1000 years. If we were the nations would not still be warring (see Rev. 20.3) and Jesus would have returned by now.

    Your teaching is called antinomianism, because there is no accountability for believers during the time of recompense. This will make you sluff off.

    The Antichrist is described as a living person, not some memory of a dead person of some religion.

    In the book of Revelation the first beast represents Antichrist as well as the Roman Empire.

    "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17.8).

    In this connection, though, it points to a man, not to a state. The reasons for this view are as follows:

    (1) This beast “was”—How then can we say that the Roman Empire once existed earlier prior to the time of John?

    (2) The beast “is not”—Yet neither can we say that the Roman Empire did not exist at John’s time.

    (3) The beast “is about to come up out of the abyss”—Abyss is the place where the spirits are imprisoned. How can we therefore say that the Roman Empire is about to come out of the abyss?

    (4) The beast is “to go into perdition”—How, moreover, can we say that the political entity known as the Roman Empire will go into hell in the future?

    Since, from this reasoning, this beast cannot apply to the Roman Empire, it must have reference to Antichrist. “Was” shows that before the time of John there was such a person who once lived on earth.

    “Is not” indicates that at John’s time this man is not in the world since he must have died. The phrase “is not” is also used in Genesis 42.36-38 to indicate death.

    “Is about to come up out of the abyss” reveals that he is now in the abyss but will come out of it, that is to say, he will be resuscitated.
    “Go into perdition” discloses that he will not live forever on earth, neither can he rule forever, because his destiny will be that of being cast into the lake of fire (19.20, 20.10).

    His being “was, and is not, and is about to come” is a clever counterfeiting of God “who is and who was and who is to come” (cf. 1.4,8; 4.8).

    “And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder”—And this wonderment will eventually lead them to worship the beast (13.12). Only those whom God has chosen will be kept. All whose names have been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be preserved by God and kept from worshiping the beast.

  3. #3
    PeteWaldo Guest

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    Sorry, I didn't see these messages piling up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    You are going to be deceived by the Antichrist because he is a concept to you, not a living breathing person at the consummation of this age. You'll be taken up and deceived by a great man because he is fulfilling amillennial visions for the future.
    But from where I stand I see virtually the whole western church blind to the fact that there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today. Though it's probably not lost in the tribulation of the 2 billion slain, in the Sudan alone.



    So who's deceived? Do any of the 4 verses that contain the term antichrist indicate a single individual?
    If so please show me. (Let's use the KJV rather than some pop-bible)

  4. #4
    PeteWaldo Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post

    Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet.
    Why does that preclude him from being the false prophet?

  5. #5
    PeteWaldo Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    In the book of Revelation the first beast represents Antichrist as well as the Roman Empire.
    Daniel defined the term "beast" when used in the figurative language of a vision or dream in prophecy. Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth...

    Where do you find it redifined in the same context of a dream or vision in scripture?

    BEAST = KINGDOM

    Daniel's lion, bear and leopard kingdom "beasts" are understood broadly among Christians and Jews, as being the successive kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. These figures reappear together in scripture only one more time - in Revelation Chapter 13 - but combined into a single composite "beast" - kingdom.

    Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Daniel's also assigned the masculine gender to kingdom beasts)

    The reverse order was perhaps because Daniel was forward looking at these kingdoms to unfold in his future, while John was looking backward at their fulfillment. The seats of the ancient successive kingdom beasts of Daniel's lion, bear and leopard which are widely believed to be Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, are occupied today by the countries of Iraq, Iran, and Syria/Lebanon. The dragon in the verse above is Satan that gave this Islamic beast his seat.

    It is described "as a leopard" perhaps because while an individual Muslim can change, it is impossible for Islam to change, as long as the Quran (mouth) exists:

    Jerimiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

    While these countries and various sects of Islam may have differences, and some with national sovereignty, they are perfectly united spiritually through the false prophet Mohammed and his Quran. As a result they are filled with the spirit of antichrist because their belief that God has no Son, or "shirk", is the most important fundamental in Islam.
    Iraq 97%, Iran 98%, Syria/Lebanon 90%/60% Islamic.

    Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

    Once we understand the Islamic empire as the "beast" of revelation 13 the identity of the false prophet Mohammed comes sharply into focus.







    The leopard-bear-lion


  6. #6
    PeteWaldo Guest

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    By the way, Historicism is a doctrine to which I do not describe and is an entirely inappropriate place to put this. They believe that the pope/papacy is "The" "Antichrist" etc. etc.

    It belongs in a section called something like "traditional continuous-historic view of prophecy".

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    Christendom may be deceived but not the Church-body of Christ. Just because you may not be deceived by Islam, doesn't mean you are not going to be deceived by the Antichrist. If your eye is on Islam and not observing the rise of the Antichrist from within Christendom you will be fooled.

    In Rev. 2 & 3, the first series of church letters was written before “the last days”; on the other hand, the latter set was written during “the last days.” 1 John 2.18, for example, clearly mentions another time—“the last hour”: “Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that Antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.” Christians who only read the first series of Church letters will not be able to understand God’s will for the last days. The last 4 church mentalities are still with us.

    "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son" (1 John 2.22).

    This is not specifically referring to the Antichrist.

    "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world" (1 John 4.3).

    These are antichrists not the Antichrist.

    "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" (2 John 1.7).

    They are antichrists.

    Of these 4 verses, only 1 John 2.18 speaks directly of the Antichrist in the last hour (Daniel's last seven).

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteWaldo View Post
    Why does that preclude him from being the false prophet?
    Where did I say he is precluded from being a false prophet? I said, "Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet", the 2nd beast in Revelation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteWaldo View Post
    By the way, Historicism is a doctrine to which I do not describe and is an entirely inappropriate place to put this. They believe that the pope/papacy is "The" "Antichrist" etc. etc.

    It belongs in a section called something like "traditional continuous-historic view of prophecy".
    Historicism is the name for all historical views such as preterism, partial preterism, postmillennialism and amillennialism. It even captures part of posttribulation rapture onlyism. Historicism simply means you treat most of the book of Revelation as already fulfilled. Whereas the futurist position says anywhere from up to chapter 3 to chapter 6 have been fulfilled.

    Since the Roman Church first introduced amillennialism, it belongs here.

    All historicism is wrong including your amillennialism.

  10. #10
    PeteWaldo Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    Where did I say he is precluded from being a false prophet?
    Review the post again. There is no need to add confusion like this for no reason. We were both talking about THE false prophet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nottheworld View Post
    I said, "Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet", the 2nd beast in Revelation.
    How does Mohammed's being dead preclude him from being the false prophet?
    How does the two-horned beast of Rev 13 become a man, let alone a false prophet?
    What does the first beast of Rev 13 as a man have to do with a lion, bear and leopard?

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