Another Unsaved Non-OSASer

[Churchwork]

Superseding the truth of Scripture, for some, the Doctrine of Eternal Security can be an inhibiting doctrine to the growth of faith. To clarify the validity of that view, it becomes a necessity to examine exactly what biblical truth is.

"Inhibiting the grow of faith." It is the confidence in Christ that we have who are saved that we can boldly come to Him and do His will. How is that inhibiting? But even still a believer has the choice if he wants to remain a fleshly or carnal Christian he certainly will not be one of those in Jude 14,15, that return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years (Rev. 20.4). He shall be disciplined in outer darkness, outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ. That's a very long time, before the New City and New Earth commence. You're inhibiting growth of faith because you haven't even walked through the door of salvation, since you are still trying to keep yourself, operating on your own strength, pridefully I might add. In fact your false conversion experience was a works, because you did not come to the cross repentantly to believe in God who is able to preserve you. There can only be one thing why you would worship your god, because like all other religions, you are trying to get to God on your own merit instead of allowing God to come down to you and bring you up to Him, like a loving parent, no matter what trouble you get yourself into, He will not forsake you. May you have that kind of love one day.

Eternal security? James wrote: “Brethren, if ANY OF YOU do err from ‘the truth,’ and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a SOUL from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20). Principally, James zeroed in on the issue of backsliders, for both terms, “brethren” and “you,” can only apply to believers: “if any of you do err.” Here, James is specifi cally telling us that the SOUL of a brother is at stake, none other. In other words, a believer who determinedly puts aside “the truth” of Scripture, being faith that works by love (Gal. 5:6-7), jeopardizes their salvation.

In James 5.19 “converteth simply means to “turn him back” in NASB. Again we do not assume he lost salvation. We only accept that he erred from the truth. Now I do not know if the “death” pertains to the affects of the “second death” on believers burning them from works here, or if it means an early physical death, but either way the consequence is a negative one. This believer that would be so turned back will then be back on the road of overcoming and may yet receive the reward of reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom if he can no longer be hurt by the second death. Let’s compare some verses to see this matter more clearly, “He shall never see death” (John 8.51,52) is actually “he shall not forever see death” in the original, and “he shall never taste death” is “he shall not forever taste death” in the original. “They shall never perish” (John 10.28) is “they shall not forever perish” in the original. “Shall never die” (John 11.25,26) is “shall not forever die” in the original (that is, receives death according to what is due him).

The salvation that is jeopardized is not the regeneration of one's spirit, but the saving of the soul which is the outerman so that the whole man be saved (Heb. 4.12).

The death spoken of in James 5.19 is not eternal separation from God, but a needing to be disciplined and shall lose rewards. The sinner here is a sinning saint, and the soul refers to our life. Death is severe but a possible means of judgment- but again, what's at stake here is a Christian's physical life and testimony on earth, not his or her eternal salvation. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10.28). The spirit of the saved man keeps eternal life and remains in God's protection, but the fires of Hell will burn off the dross of his false works of his outerman (soul and body). Praise the Lord!

James put it this way:

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of
daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in
peace, be you warmed and filled; notwithstanding
you give them not those things which are needful
to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if
it hath not works, is dead, being alone. . . . But wilt
thou know, O vain man, that faith without works
is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by
works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon
the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his
works, and by works was faith made perfect? And
the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham
believed God, and it was imputed unto him for
righteousness: and he was called the Friend of
God. You see then how that by works a man is
justified, and not by faith only. (James 2:15-24)

If we encounter a destitute brother or sister, and just say, “God bless you,” especially when we can help and our help is needful, our faith is in vain. Being inactive, dead faith is a non-abiding faith that doesn’t justify anyone. In retrospect, James’s “truth passage” is another confirmation to “the truth,” especially since a multitude of sins become covered by a brother who wholly converts to the truth; that is, to the truth of selfless love, stemming from laborious faith. Peter agreeably wrote, “And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover (hide) the multitude of sins” (1 Pet. 4:8)!

James 2:—"What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?" (v.14) What is the motive behind these words written by James? To whom does he address himself? For some people boast that they have faith, yet there is no work displayed in their lives. If they are not refuted, the church will be evilly affected. Faith should be kept before God, not to be bragged about before men. Faith needs to be accomplished by works. All who say they have faith and yet have no works cannot be saved by their kind of faith.

"Saved" in the Scriptures has several meanings. "I know," says Paul, "that this shall turn out to my salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.19). Is not Paul already saved? This obviously does not refer to a believer’s receiving eternal life; it points to Paul’s being released from prison. "Who delivered us out of so great a death, and will deliver: on whom we have set our hope that he will also still deliver us" (2 Cor. 1.10), declares Paul once more. Some think that this alludes to how the Lord died on the cross to save us from the penalty of sin and is now our Advocate in heaven saving us from the power of sin and in the future will come again to save our body. Who knows for sure, say they, that these matters are not what Paul in fact is talking about here? Well, the deliverances herein mentioned pertain to Paul’s and his friends’ physical deliverances by the Lord. For by reading the entire context we learn how they had formerly been afflicted in Asia to the point of despairing even of life but that the Lord delivered them out of such a situation. For this reason, Paul believed that the Lord would deliver him out of afflictions yet further—both now and in the future.

In like manner the word "save" used by James above has reference to being profited through environment. This is clear if we read the verses which follow: "If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?" (James 2.15,16) The "one of you" points to those who brag emptily of having faith. They do not supply food and dress to the brothers and sisters in need, but instead they vainly pronounce to the needy: Go in peace. The problem involved here is not one of going to heaven, but is one that is concerned with the warmth and the filling up of the body today. What James means to say is that you cannot simply say you have faith and yet do not supply the needs of your brothers and sisters.

"Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself" (v.17). This is a verdict given by James. He means that if you believe that those needy ones will be warmed and filled and yet you do not lend a hand to supply their needs, such kind of faith without works is not faith at all; it is dead. A living faith believes in the heart that the God of mercy would not permit those needy brethren to go cold or hungry; and at the same time this living faith causes us to distribute various physical supplies to them.

"Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by works will show thee my faith" (v.18). Those who brag vainly of their faith will be challenged by others, who will say: You say you have faith but where do you express it? You can only say with your mouth; you will not even lift a finger at the time of real need. Where then is your faith? You pretend to believe for others, though you yourself have not faith. If you have faith, why do you not give all that you have? Your brother or sister is now naked and in lack of daily food. Why do you not give what you have to him since you yourself are warmly clothed and well-fed? You say you have faith, but how are you going to prove your faith? But as a matter of fact, your faith is but empty word, your faith is dead. It does not profit the needy ones. On the other hand, though, I have works, and by my supplying the needs of brothers and sisters I prove my faith. I believe that God would not cause us to suffer cold or hunger, therefore when I see the needs of brothers and sisters around me I share all that I have with them. My works are based on my faith. My works are the expressions of my faith. By my works I show forth my faith.

"Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder" (v.19). The children of Israel believe in one God, and this is right. But the demons believe also in one God, yet they remain as demons. What James infers from this fact is that faith without works is like demons who remain demons though believing in God.

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?" (v.20) Vain man is but another name for the one who brags emptily of his faith. It can be said that he really does not have faith in his heart. Only he who supplies others in a practical way can demonstrate his faith to people. First faith, then works. True faith produces true works. The one who boasts of his faith yet has no works is proven to have a dead faith. Since his heart errs before God, his faith is also dead.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?" (v.21) If James had not quoted the story of Abraham, some readers of Romans and Galatians would consider outright that James is in error in what he says, for had not Paul spoken of justification by faith, and therefore faith is sufficient without the need of works? Yet what James maintains is that Abraham was indeed justified by faith but he was also justified by works. James does not overturn Abraham’s being justified by faith; he only proves by his offering up of Isaac that Abraham’s work is the expression of Abraham’s faith. So that he was not only justified by faith but also justified by works.

Instead of overturning justification by faith, James actually strengthens it with justification by works in proving what true faith is. Abraham’s offering up of Isaac is a work, and this work is reckoned to him as righteousness. But what kind of work is it? It is a work of faith. "By faith, Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac: yea, he that had gladly received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; even he to whom it was said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called: accounting that God is able to raise up, even from the dead; from whence he did also in a figure receive him back" (Heb. 11.17-19). In quoting the offering up of Isaac by Abraham, James shows us that true faith must be accompanied by works. Abraham gladly received the promises of God. He believed in what God had told him, notably that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (v.18). Eliezer was not the one, nor was Ishmael, nor was any son who might later be born of Sarah; Isaac alone was to be the heir of the inheritance and the promises.

Now God tested Abraham in order to see what his heart was toward God and how real was his faith. God asked him to offer up on the altar his son Isaac—the one who was divinely appointed to be his heir—and there to be slain and burnt. Yet how would God’s promise ever be fulfilled if Abraham loved God and burned Isaac? If he wanted to fulfill God’s promise he could not comply with God’s request. According to man these two, far from being unified, are contradictory to each other. Yet to a living faith they are unified and not contradictory. It is God who promises, and it is God who requires. God will never contradict himself. Between promise and request God will open a new way, that is to say, the way of resurrection: "accounting that God is able to raise up, even from the dead" (v.19).

Abraham’s faith is thus defined. Even though I slay Isaac and offer him as a burnt-offering, I still believe Your promised word—"in Isaac shall thy seed be called"—will be fulfilled, for you shall raise up Isaac from the dead. So when he went off to the appointed place to offer up Isaac, he went with a determined heart. He actually bound Isaac and raised high his knife. His heart toward God was absolute, there being no reservation. His faith in God was firm and void of doubt. And when the angel of the Lord called to him and said, "Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him" (Gen. 22.12), he "did also in a figure receive him back" (Heb. 11.19). Abraham’s offering up of his only begotten son was a work of faith. And this is called justification by works.

"Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect" (James 2.22). This continues on from the preceding thought. Due to the fact that by offering up Isaac on the altar Abraham was justified by works, we come to realize that faith runs parallel with works, or, to phrase it another way, that faith and works operate together. Abraham’s work is performed through his faith, and faith is perfected by his works. A faith which has not been tested is undependable. By his offering Isaac, Abraham’s faith is both proven and perfected.

"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God" (v.23). "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness"—this word is recorded in Genesis 15.6. What is the relationship between the offering up of Isaac in Genesis 22 to that word? Why should James quote it in his epistle when he suggests that the offering up of Isaac is a justification by works? And he even adds that the scripture was fulfilled. The relationship is simply this: that justification by works fulfills justification by faith. It appears as though justification by faith is a prophecy and that justification by works is the fulfillment of that prophecy. He who has faith must have works, for works explain the reality of faith. Abraham believed in God, he was reckoned as righteous, and he was also called the friend of God. Hence Abraham’s work in offering up Isaac is the fulfillment of Abraham’s faith in God. In short, his offering up of Isaac demonstrates to us his faith in God.

"Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith" (v.24). Since Genesis 22 is the fulfillment of Genesis 15, and since works are the expressions of faith because faith without works is dead and faith is made perfect by works, therefore a man is justified by works and not only by faith. Let us notice that James has not said that a man is justified by works and not by faith; he merely says that a man is justified by works and not only by faith. And by this he means to say that after a man is justified by faith he needs to prove and to be made perfect in that faith through justification by works, even as Abraham after he was justified by faith was tested by God and thus was justified by works.

"And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?" (v.25) James first cites an excellent person such as Abraham to show that he was not only justified by faith but also justified by works. Next, though, he cites a bad woman such as Rahab to show that she too was justified by works. For she received the messengers and sent them out another way. What kind of work is this work? "By faith Rahab the harlot perished not with them that were disobedient, having received the spies with peace" (Heb. 11.31). This work is also a work of faith. Faith and works are inseparable; they are the two sides of one thing. With respect to this one and same thing it is called faith in Hebrews and works in James. Works are the expressions of faith whereas faith is the source of works. To say that there is faith and yet there be no works of faith shown, that faith is dead. Consequently, after there is a justification by faith there must also be the justification by works.

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead" (v.26). In Chapter 2, from verse 14 onward, James speaks of the relationship between faith and works. There is a kind of faith which has no works, being nothing but a vain boast; and it is dead. But there is another kind of faith which has works; and it is living. Works prove the faith, and works make perfect the faith. James uses what Abraham and Rahab did as evidences to prove his point. And finally, he uses this other illustration: "As the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead": living faith is always accompanied by works: so that just as the body without the spirit is dead, faith without works is also dead.

Now James’s text doesn’t center on unbelievers erring, again, it is the brethren (“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth.”). Thus, James’s “truth passage” only concerns believers, as Peter’s following citing of the Holy Commandment, and those who effect righteousness through it, also does:

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them. (2 Pet. 2:21)

Nonbelieivers never had to turn from the holy Commandment, because nonbelievers never learned the way of righteousness to begin with. Therefore, it remains that the Doctrine of Eternal Security is a false doctrine.

Robert Harris

The point of James 2 is to explain how a person, thou saved, who has no works, makes his faith dead of no effect, not that he then loses salvation. Not at all. You're totally missing the point!

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

It would have been better for you to have never heard of Jesus to remain believing in a God who doesn't have the power to assure you He will keep you faithful even when you are faithless. You turned from the Holy Commandment because you refuse God's way of salvation. There is only one way. His way. Many people have receive the commandment of the Lord and still turn from Him-were never born-again! This is you, because of your out-clause and pride in salvation by works, your own power to keep yourself. Who has this kind of arrogance more than any other? Lucifer.

There is no confidence in faith under non-OSAS and trust in God’s all knowing ability to foreknow all that which He lets Himself know.

In 2 Peter 1.9-11 we are told that some believers will be blinded, and will forget, so you are to work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. In reading the Bible never let ourselves assume anything for the minute we fall by assuming, we are blind. Our election is fact, now it needs to be made sure. The RSV version says “confirm your call and election”. In other words strengthen that which you already have. Therefore, you shall never fall. NASB says “shall never stumble”. Fall does not mean to lose what has been given. Rather, it means to fall down. Even so, now get back up for you have the life of Christ in you. If you do not, and stay down, you most certainly will lose the rewards of the kingdom. Where do you go if you lose the rewards of the kingdom as a good many Christians will lose such reward in reigning with Christ during the millennium. It has been mentioned 3 times by name in the Scriptures. It’s name is outer darkness. We need to humble ourselves to this recognition because this is the piece of the puzzle many simply are not willing to accept, even as Christians. God has a way of putting them outside of glory – outer darkness – without any part of the kingdom. This is what Matt. 25.30 means. If you say to yourself “I will not legalize this term to be hell” then you can accept it for it no longer becomes such an monumental term.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Dogs and Swine, Matt. 7.6

Verse 6 is a fragment by itself. The dogs and swine mentioned here refer especially to those people cited in 2 Peter 2.21-22. Such people are fairly near the door of the church. They have received some spiritual education, yet they are never saved. The "had washed" in 2 Peter symbolizes a kind of noble ideal; it is not a cleansing through the forgiveness of sins.

The Old Testament mentions swine a great deal, and the New Testament has much to say about dogs. Both swine and dogs are unclean. Swine are cloven-footed, but they do not chew the cud; and the dog neither parts the hoof nor chews the cud. Hence both are unclean. The spiritual symbol for a Christian is the sheep.

Outwardly the swine may look better than the dog, for it is at least cloven-hoofed. This observation may be applied to churchgoers who seem to know, yet do not know, the truth. The dog has neither the appearance nor the reality of cleanness. The Letter to the Philippians warns us of dogs (3.2); and the book of Revelation (22.15; cf. 21.8) tells of the dogs which are in the lake of fire without the Holy City.

"That which is holy" (v.6) belongs to God. How do people come into possession of holy things? These holy things—possibly they are truths as revealed in the book of Revelation or are such truths as baptism, breaking of bread, and so forth—are spiritual things which come from God.

"Pearls" are "your pearls"—which denote things you personally have received from God. Thus holy things represent truths in general which come out of God, whereas pearls represent those experiences which you specifically receive from God.

[Churchwork]

Robert Harris,

Observe how precise and accurate are the Scriptures!

While James 5.19 speaks to brethren who are saved and backslide but don't lose eternal life, 2 Peter 2 refers to "waterless springs" (2 Pet. 2.17) and had "knowledge" (v.20) of the Lord, but it is "worse for them that first" (v.20). It would have been better they never knew the "way of righteousness" (v.21) Jesus died for their sins. It would have been better they come to this knowledge at a later time. In 2 Peter 2, they are never called "brethren" as those in James 5.19.

Christianity teaches that some people come so close to God, hear the gospel and even understand the way of righteousness (there are some false Christians in our midst) but then "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39), either remaining false Christians (swine) or dogs that they were. You would fall into the remaining "false Christian" category. This stance is worse off than those who had never known Christ, because you came so close to God and still reject Him. What else is there to convince you in the God Who keeps. Then there are others who are truly born-again, who either became spiritual then fell back into being carnal (will lose rewards but not life), or they remained fleshly and never matured in the life of Christ (they too will lose rewards).

I have found the reason why non-OSASers such as yourself can't let go of their false teaching is because through possession and by assumptions it is contingent on rejecting the millennial reign of Christ, for in their in their view there is no such thing; that is, no accountability, no time of recompense, so it is either saved or unsaved for the lot. They allow for no millennial reign of Christ on earth and rewards (Jude 14,15; Rev. 20.2-7)-the time of transition from the age of grace to age eternity future in the New City for them does not exist which is antinomian. But the Bible is clear: "for every eye will see when the LORD return to Zion" (Is. 52.8), that is, on earth (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7). Israel will be the center of all nations (Is. 52.7-13; Zech 14.16-19). The Roman Church that Jezebel, the woman who rides the beast, makes itself the center in Rome, whereas God makes Israel the center, though not as kings and priests, from where He will reign during the 1000 years. His overcomer believers (Rev. 2 & 3) who overcometh from previous dispensations receive the reward of returning with Him to reign over the nations as kings and priests.

Paul says there is the fleshly or carnal Christian (Rom. 7.14,19; 1 Cor. 3.1) and the matured or spiritual Christian who "overcomeths"; and that the larger portion of all believers though all saved do not "overcometh" (Rev. 2.7,11,17,26; 3.5,12,26) in Christ before leaving their bodies of flesh and blood? "Make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly kindness, and brotherly kindness with love" (2 Pet. 1.5-7).

[Churchwork]

So one can learn the way of righteousness and know the way of righteousness without true faith? Without being born again?

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
KJV

Notice Romans 9.30 says "have attained righteousness...by faith" rather than merely knowing righteousness as is the case for those in 2 Peter 2.21.

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder" (James 2.19). Yes, you for one, know the way of righteousness, you know that Jesus is Lord and Savior, He created you, and He died for your sins, but you throw Him a curve ball because you don't want to enter the doorway, since you actually worship a counterfeit: a false god who can cause you to lose salvation tomorrow based on what you do and or don't do, how you decide to think or behave, instead of trusting in the God who keeps even though you a mere man and don't have the power you allege you have to keep yourself. Oh what pride of man, that even in matters of salvation, he still wants his own way to be saved. It was better if you had never even read the Bible or heard of Jesus, because now look where you are oh decrepit man, in a salvation that just feeds your keeping pride and has no comfort that it can be lost tomorrow, gained back, lost again. You make my God look like a fool as you misrepresent Him. And you lord yourself over others with your keeping power. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8).

Some of the most spiritual Christians in history have said they would not know what spiritual life was if they didn't know about and experience the dividing of their spirit, soul and body, to walk after the spirit and not the outerman's soul and body. This is exactly what's happening here. A person can acknowledge a truth and righteousness in Christ in their soul by mentally acknowledging it with various acclamations. But their innerman has not been regenerated and the conscience has not been quickened for eternal life. Such a salvation of this could never compare one where "you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). How could a man know he had eternal life, passed out of death into life, if he had not been justified by faith permanently? He couldn't.

When our assurance of salvation is based at all on our works, we can never have absolute assurance...! But does Scripture discourage giving objective assurance of salvation? Hardly! On the contrary, the Lord Jesus (John 5.24), Paul (Romans 8.38-39), and John (1 John 5.11-13) have no qualms about offering absolute, objective assurance of salvation. Furthermore, works are never included as a requirement of assurance. Whoever believes on Him shall be judged no more, because he "hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5.24). How can this happen more than once? It is a one-time, once-for-all transaction. In eternity He has formed a will which wills to save us that none of us should be lost: "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6.39). How then can we be saved and later be unsaved? Our salvation is forever secured in the unchangeable will of God.

My experience agrees completely, and I had the humility to accept I was never born-again to begin with. Do you have this humility? Ten years before I was saved, I received a miracle. Then for approximately thirty days I thought I believed in Christ in repentance and faith. At the end of that time, I left what I was drawn to, and didn't think about Jesus for ten years, probably not even once. I loved the world. But then came January, 2001 when I was born-again: once-saved-always-saved.

Ten years prior to that, even though I knew the way of righteousness, I left it. I freely acknowledge to you that I was never born-again. I was guilty as those who "have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ...again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" (2 Pet. 2.20). Know then how grateful I am to God to have come so close to Him with knowledge of His righteousness, the power to heal me of sure death with one of the most amazing miracles this planet has ever seen. And yet I turned my back on Him!

Initially, I thought I had actually been born-again for ten years, but sorta in a coma, then I ventured the possibility I was truly saved, but lost eternal life. It didn't take me long to realize after being saved in 2001, the reality in understanding the Scriptures makes it clear and touches me very deeply that I was never born-again to begin with ten years prior. I can tell you that was such a wonderful feeling that came over me to know all that led up to 2001 was not salvation. "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet. 2.21). The probability of someone being saved thereafter is very small. All I can say is I am eternally grateful! May my experience help those whose faith is not real in which they think it is a sin to believe they could never lose salvation. God is not an evil tyrant constantly threatening you with losing eternal life. Man is though. God is like a loving parent whose children He will never let go: "kept by the power of God" (1 Pet. 3.5). Have you ever known such love?

A disturbing thought just occurred to me. People who claim such people were saved and then became unsaved is an insult to God's character. My God is greater than that. He doesn't consider that salvation. We need to raise our standards and not bow down to human conceptions. How absurd that God has saved men behaving like animals then calling that salvation. No! They were never saved to begin with. They did not truly come to the cross for real with true repentance and faith to believe in the One whose saving grace is an irrevocable gift: "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11.29).

If only people could be honest with themselves and stop clinging onto a false salvation, they might actually get saved.

Praise the Lord! Amen.

[Churchwork]

Got any Scriptures that requires a person to believe in the Doctrine of Eternal Security, or they can't have faith in Christ and be saved? I'm waiting! Just the Scripture is all that is necessary--theory doesn't count.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16). The false Christ is one who says you can lose salvation tomorrow and Rev. 22.18,19 says you will go to Hell for trying to alter Jesus. "For false Christs...shall rise,...to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect" (Mark 13.22). You worship a false Christ who says IT IS POSSIBLE to lose eternal life: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29). God keeps saying one thing and you keep saying something else. Who is it that worships false Christs if it is not you?

How in heavens are these the same Jesus? They are so diabolically opposite one another, to make them the same Jesus is such a massive contradiction, you're just trying to seduce yourself and others into a salvation by works without utterly trust for salvation in Jesus: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8). It's conclusive! This is the Jesus you will need to receive to be saved, and not a redefined Jesus contrary to Scripture. You may think you believe in Jesus, but you can't find a verse in the Bible that agrees with your Jesus. That is evidence enough. True salvation, to receive new birth or to keep the gift of the Spirit is something you can't nor will ever be able to do. "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11.29). Why do you keep calling God a liar? Where is the love, and truth, in that?

Maybe you want to receive the Christ also that is modalist or tritheist or has two wills or redeems you in Hell or is not fully man and fully God but only appears to be a man and is only fully God. There is a long list of false Christs as Jesus said there would be. But according to your theory that's alright as long as their name is Jesus they can all save you. Oh how deceived art thou man, who can know how deep the corruption of his heart runs to.

[Churchwork]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16).
This Scripture doesn't say, "For God so loved the wold, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, and the Doctrine of Eternal Security, should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now give me a clear Scripture stating your view--so far you have failed!

Where does this verse say "in him" is in a false Christ who is is unable to assure you salvation and keep you saved? That is not the Jesus of the Bible. Anyone can attach whatever they want to "him"; but is it Him? Many will say "Lord, Lord" didn't we do this, didn't we do that, to which He will reply, He never knew you. Who knows how liberal you will take this, but 1 in 3 people on the planet claim they a Christians, and many of the rest claim they believe in Jesus too in their own way.

Who is God and who is His only begotten Son? Is He the one who makes a promise and then breaks it? Of course not. Therefore, you worship a law breaker-a false Christ!

These have been clear Scriptures all along! You simply don't want to be saved God's way-so your portion is eternity in Hell. Your preference is for a selfish salvation with an "out-clause". And that is sad, "For it had been better for" you "not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after" you "have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto" you (2 Pet. 2.21).

There is no way you will be born-again as long as you continue to refuse to repent and believe in a God who can't keep you saved.

[Churchwork]

Since you believe in the false doctrine, the dead are dead and they don't have spirit, you might as well erase 1 Thess. 3:13 from your Bible. Also, I believe that God is the God of the living, not the dead!

You know your argument fails you when you have to sin bearing false witness to make your arguments. I believe dead have a spirit, so why accuse that I don't believe this? When I die, I go to rest or timeless unawares like where Lazarus is and the repentant thief. We will be resurrected together at the end of this age (1 Thess. 4.15-17). Who does that offend you? Paul said the living will not be taken up before the dead are raised. Why do you violate this? And yank man around putting parts of his being in one place then another. That's weird.

We keep our spirit and souls, but when resurrected we get a body. You can't come before the High Priest naked as you intend to do. When resurrected, I will not realize time has passed since the day I went to rest. That's why Jesus said to the repentant thief, I will see you "this day" in paradise. Jesus did not go up to 3rd Heaven the day He died on the cross, but went down to Hades and what Jews call paradise below in contrast to paradise above.

I also believe in 1 Thess. 3.13.

"To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones" (1 Thess. 3.13).

If you overcometh, you will return with Christ. Obviously, not all believers return for the millennial kingdom because they don't all keep the word of His patience. Who can say the condition of those in Revelation 20.4 matches all believers? Why then would God tell the churches to overcometh if there are no consequences?

God is the God of the living and the dead. Why do you pride yourself on going to Heaven before David? God said not even David, a man after His own heart, is in Heaven yet.

You are searching for straws. Bottom line: you reject the Bible and Jesus who said: "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Any child could not perceive differently. Only man in his convoluted thinking aims to twist and be disingenuous with the clear teachings of Scripture.

You don't have eternal life, because you could perish. Salvation by works is pride: "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9).

You think too highly of yourself: ""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves" (Eph. 2.8).

[Churchwork]

You are making a great mistake in your understanding and in your accusations--I have the Lord everyday and I have a good relationship with Him--it is a sin for you to judge others and condemn others because you think that Christians have eternal life no matter how they live out their life--in your understanding the Holy Commandment wasn't delivered to or received by Christians who failed in their faith--but nothing could be farther from the truth. No nonbeliever ever learned the way of righteousness or knew the ways of righteousness--overcoming--then turned from their faith, which they never had to begin with. Thus, 2 Peter 2:21 refers to Christians who were once saved; who once had faith, but turned from that faith.

I believe the Holy Commandment was delivered and received by Christians. The problem is your ecumenicalism in which you think so many people are saved and you call them all Christians, but then claim some of them lost their faith and salvation. Scripture says, "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28) and we who are saved are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32). I just can't find anything in Scripture that agrees with you, nor are you able to.

You condemn yourself. I am not condemning you, but simply reporting back to you what God's word says. You are judged already: "condemned already" (John 3.18). But I am not judged with you, because I don't believe what you believe that God gives eternal life, takes it back, gives it again, and on and on. As Dave Hunt says, that would be a strange kind of salvation. What kind of God is that? I am protected on all sides with the Church, brothers and sisters in Christ, such as Watchman Nee, Dave Hunt, Jessie-Penn Lewis, Lee Strobel, and Gary R. Habermas. What do you have? You have the the teaching of the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, JW's, Lutherans and the vast bulk of Christendom that is deceived and under a curse.

In fact, as far as losing your salvation goes, you also agree with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and virtually every other religion which is salvation by works: keeping it by works. You even agree with Calvinists in that you both erroneously believe to know the way of righteousness a person has to be saved first without the choice, for you deny the choice to receive the salvation to be once-saved-always-saved. You guys don't know the one and only true God. Only in Christianity does God predestinate by foreknowing our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (OSAS Arminian). Just as you are born physically once, you can only be born-again once. You can't be born-again again! How absurd!

You're in a relationship with a false Christ who everyday keeps telling you that you might go to Hell. What love is this? You already have a foretaste of Hell since you are not born-again. You can lord yourself over others with this lie that you are so powerful to keep yourself, but Christians know better. Even when a Christian's faith falters, God said He is faithful. "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself" (2 Tim. 2.13). In other words, He keeps us who are saved. God preserves His saints to the end. "He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him" (Heb. 7.25). "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29). You're just doing the Devil's work by violating God's loving words.

The way of overcoming follows new birth. The knowledge of this is imparted to many people, but they still "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). They come so close to the Lord like you do, but still keep a wall between themselves and Him, so they were never born-again to begin with. Just as you are now, I was once was also 10 years before I was saved. I too thought I was saved for a time, but I realized after being truly born-again ten years later, what true salvation was. You don't have this life, so I keep praying for you.

How strange a gospel that would be if nobody could ever know the way of righteousness and salvation in Christ, unless they were already saved. That is a very Calvinistic teaching to say the least. It also makes Jesus' death on the cross all in vain! You would have been better off not to know the way of righteousness in Christ then to be where you are now. Because you could have been introduced to Jesus at a later time when you were more receptive, or your permanent stay in Hell would not be as horrific as it is going to be since you came so close to God and yet still turn away for a false salvation. "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet. 2.21).

Instead of thinking a person is a Christian who was saved today, but tomorrow lost his salvation, realize he was never saved to begin with.

Not only are you guilty of all the above, but you are endangering your own faith by these misunderstandings and false accusations--for faith works by agape love--in fact, we know that we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren (1 John 3:14), HOWEVER, I see no love on your part--for you judge and condemn others who Christ died for, denying that they have faith, which every Christian is saved by. So your chastisement (if in fact you will continue in your salvation) from the Lord is coming your way--if not, then you will, as a lifestyle, turn from the Holy Commandment delivered to the saints.

Robert

I see no love in your words, for where is the love in telling a person they can lose salvation tomorrow? That is what you are saying. Your god is evil and threatens you daily if you don't do what he says, otherwise he will take away what he alleges to be your salvation. God is not a threatening evil tyrant. This is the characteristic of evil dictators in the world which you fashion God in your own image. He knows how weak man is even after being saved, and knows no man can keep himself. If only some would realize that they could be saved to stop thinking they are almighty powerful to save themselves. Oh what pride! Who can bear it?

You can accuse and misunderstand God's word, but that is your choice. The verses are given and they are most clear. Your liberalism and ecumenicalism go too far. God can't even save as many people you claim are saved who Jesus died for, but who want another salvation. Then you accuse Christians who by the Holy Spirit know the condition of the ecumenical spirit and the spirit of the evil tyrant. Just know this, however much you pride yourself over keeping yourself and exalting yourself over others and are locked into books you wrote (committed to heresy) that you can't get out of, in so much you do to put yourself on a pedestal above God whether you realize it or not, God will not give into your demands. Salvation is authentic. Selfish salvation is man's way of even trying to receive and worship God. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13).

It is a sin to have a doublestandard. You said don't accuse, but you accuse, when you said, "your chastisement is coming". I am certainly chastised by the evil spirit who wields the threat of losing eternal life, but God protects from that heresy because of the verses you were unable to disprove that God keeps the elect. The conditional election once entered into is unconditional, because that is the kind of salvation the believer repented towards and accepted in Christ. You are left without, like seeds that fell on the wayside and never even planted their roots.

May you have the comfort of eternal life which can never be lost and no longer be saddened by the constant threats of losing your alleged salvation tomorrow perpetuated by the evil spirit.

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3.15-16,19).

"Even that question wouldn't have come up except for some so-called Christians there--false ones, really--who came to spy on us and see our freedom in Christ Jesus. They wanted to force us, like slaves, to follow their...regulations" (Gal. 2.4).

"For there shall arise false Christs...insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Mark 24.24). They can do damage, but they can't cause us to lose life.

Praise the Lord!

[Churchwork]

I've always believed that we have eternal life the moment we accept Jesus--the moment we believe in Him, but I don't believe every Christian who is saved will live their lives out as saved--but will turn from their faith; and yes, you are, not God, condemning and judging me. Many Christians who are born again and don't have faith in denominations, don't believe the lie of automatic Eternal Security--many believe as I do, that a person can turn from their faith after learning the how of righteousness. The proof is in the pudding--many after naming Christ, don't grow and continue, if not worsen, living after the flesh. You, and your judgements remain despicable!!! It is your flesh to condemn others--not the inner Christ in you!!!

As we have seen in verse after verse you worship a false Christ who doesn't keep the elect but threatens them like an evil tyrant as you pompously exalt yourself over others with your almighty power to keep yourself. If only we could be as strong as you! The truth is only God can keep. You can't keep yourself. There are no verses for a person clearly losing eternal life once saved, but there are verses showing OSAS. This shows you try to save yourself by works and don't trust in the One True God to keep, so you worship another. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29). Since you don't believe in this God you are not saved; therefore, you are going to Hell if you remain as you are. Stop your boasting and give your life to Christ.

You are condemning yourself. I am simply showing you God of the Bible. Don't blame me for your choice to reject God. Where did I claim to be God? That's a lame accusation! You are judging when you falsely accuse and call salvation (OSAS) a lie. Why do you have a doublestandard saying not to judge but then you judge? Seems unethical. I call that a "selfish judger" which points back to self as the center. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Your entire behavior is inappropriate which stems from a false salvation and under deception. Even if you are not affiliated with a demonination, it is still false salvation. Not attending the Roman Church doesn't get you off the hook you are on.

You have learned from me the how of righteousness in this long thread, but you till reject it, that is to place your trust in the God who keeps eternally and not a god who can't necessarily. Many do remain carnal Christians once-saved, so they will lose rewards of the millennial kingdom. Understand many of your false teachings tie-in together. Because you don't regard accountability for Christians for the millennial reign, you harden your heart threatening people with losing salvation to control them evilly for another little harlot. But in Christ, true salvation has accountability to return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years or lose that reward in "outer darkness" (mentioned by name 3 times in Scripture).

The Holy Spirit is leading me to tell you these truths. Your rejection of Christ remains despicable in your pride of thinking you can keep yourself saved against a God eternally greater than you. This is the teaching of all religions: salvation by works. What pride! It is is gross. It is the lie of the serpent in the Garden you can be like God and save yourself. You are not even a Christian living after the flesh, but a false Christian, the "unsaved tares" (see Matt. 13) trying to look like the saved wheat for "filthy lucre" and book sales. Just as Jesus said, we are not here to condemn you, but show you His love and the way of salvation. Why do you keep refusing it? You'd rather be a King in non-OSAS Hell than with God and the Lamb in the New City who keeps His children forever!

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" (John 3.17). Amen.

[Churchwork]

Faith isn't knowing that God exists, it is trusting God in all areas of your life--and you have not trusted Him in your accusations and judgements--thus your faith at present is failing--will you continue to fail?

Even the demons know God exists. Salvation is trusting repentantly in God who keeps to receive eternal life which can never be lost, not a god who can't ensure this. Obviously you don't worship God who keeps, but You who keeps, which is the lie of the serpent that you can be like God. You're not just blaming me for pointing out your false salvation, but you are accusing the prophets and the apostles, and Jesus who said, "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You worship a false Christ in which you have a probability you will perish. That is not very comforting to a real Christian.

Yes, Satan, you accuse me my faith is failing; but my faith is strong, since I place my trust in God who keeps. Robert, you're just projecting your own condition onto me since you are non-OSAS. I'm an OSAS Arminian just like Jacob Arminius, Watchman Nee, Jessie-Penn Lewis, and all Christians. This is the God in Whom we are saved by no matter how much that offends you. As the Apostle John said, "These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). How can you really know if you are saved and saved for forever, if you are a non-OSASer who thinks he might lose salvation tomorrow, or if not tomorrow, then next week or later this year, or next year, or in ten years from now? Not possible, not for someone who has a real relationship with Christ Jesus.

I've already written you about the two kind of works in the New Testament--there are law works and godly works of faith and agape love. Christians need to practice godly works, or they won't bear fruit--and you shall know them by their fruits--and yours, when it comes to love, peace, gentleness, longsuffering, goodness, meekness and temperance are nothing to write home about.

Let me get this straight. You mean to say when the Jews were trying to keep the law, they were not doing so with godly works of faith and love!? That's a strange claim. Then they would be sinning if the didn't commit adultery, for adultery is ungodly, without faith and love. You claim you don't try to keep the law which no man can keep, but you can keep another law of works onto yourself, even works which you allege to be love? And if you do so, you will be able to keep your salvation? Oh great man that you are! Impress us with your keeping salvation that only you can muster! You don't know the gospel of salvation. Man can't keep anything. He always falters. Only God can keep.

Not one tittle of the law shall pass till these things are finished. I don't see the love in you or your god since he threatens you and you threaten others with losing salvation, and causes you to pompously exalt yourself over others because of your own almighty power to keep yourself saved even though Peter said, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

My prayer is one day you give your life to Christ. The Holy Spirit has clearly shown you are not born-again, and it would be a great tragedy all your life to think you are saved when you are not. This is Satan's greatest ploy. The best thing that could happen is you lose this way of false salvation of non-OSAS that you have, and be transformed: give your life to the One True God and Christ who can keep you once-saved-always-saved. Amen.

My sincerest prayers go out to you Robert Harris, you don't need to remain as you are as so many are lost in the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Messianics, Mormons, JW's, Muslims, Hindus, etc. who all teach salvation by works just like you, worshiping a god who doesn't ensure salvation for all His children. Where is the love in that?

Praise the Lord!

[Churchwork]

I've already done this, and this is why you re in trouble. Accusing falsely!

I have told you the truth. You're in trouble, because you are not saved and you accuse the brethren falsely of accusing you falsely. You worship a false Christ. Nothing in Scripture indicates you have given your life to Christ for you have altered salvation so it can be lost. This is not true salvation-new birth. You still want to worship a god and have a selfish salvation with an "out-clause," instead of trusting your life into the hands of God who can keep. Think of it this way. You are still holding onto you instead of letting go for God so Christ can be your life. It can be scary I know, but when you finally are born-again, letting go, wow! It's sorta like jumping out of an airplane for the first time. Therefore, you arrogance shows forth because you exalt yourself in your alleged ability to be like God able to keep what only God can keep.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8). "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12). "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [perfect] it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.6). "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39). "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11.29).

In Christ Jesus our Lord! Not your false Christ! Of all these false Christs spoken of in Scripture, if not yours then whose?