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Thread: Another Unsaved Non-OSASer

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    Default Another Unsaved Non-OSASer

    Re: Robert Harris (MidnightsCryBook@aol.com)
    http://www.midnightministries.com/
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Harris
    Shall I just erase several Scriptures in the New Testament which identify the Holy Commandment? The commandment given to Christians alone, which can make them holy by obedience? (2 Pet. 2:21)
    The commandment you speak of is not something you can keep yourself in. You are just a man, high and mighty, thinking you can, but you can't. At some point you will falter, but God is so wonderful that if you believe in Him the One True God, He will keep you if you received truly to be made a new creation.

    "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet. 2.21).

    These people came so close (like Calvinists) to God but still rejected Him. It is not that they lost salvation. Actually, they never had it. 10 years prior to being saved I actually thought I was saved for 30 days. Then at the end of that 30 days, I said enough of this and didn't think about it for even once to my recollection for 10 years until that day I was actually born-again once-saved-always-saved. Praise the Lord!

    I realized I was never born-again at all those 30 days ten years prior. That is my experience which agrees with God's word.

    This is an assumption on your part--for I have faith that God will keep me; however, many Christians are living after the flesh--and they won't repent. In this vein, they will eventually transgress 1 Peter 2:21, which describes a turning from the faith--the Holy Commandment which has its roots in 1 John 3:23!, knowing you are just a man and can't keep yourself once-saved-always-saved.

    Robert
    How can you have faith God will keep you, because you very well may lose faith tomorrow and admit you could potentially lose salvation then. You may have faith God can keep you, but you don't have any faith you can keep yourself, because that is the demand you place on yourself in order to remain saved. The reason you hold this view of non-OSAS is because you don't know the level and extent of what a sinner (not having been touched by God to know this yet) you are that even if you made a choice for Christ, even still, you would not be able to remain faithful. You would surely stumble against an eternal God. Therefore, to truly be saved you will need to repent and believe in Christ, the Christ who by the Spirit and with the Father will keep you even when you are faithless. "If we are faithless, He remains faithful" (2 Tim. 2.13). That is a God I pray one day you receive and believe in for you to be born-again a child of God.

    Christians living after the flesh will repent sooner or later towards the New City, but many will lose the reward of reigning during the 1000 years, for they are not deemed overcomers (Rev. 20.4). Perhaps you are assuming those who do not repent who you thought were once-saved, in fact, actually were never saved to begin with. When God gives eternal life, He gives it so it can never be lost. Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37), not at new birth nor after new birth. You can have that kind of God too, if you are willing.

    "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" (1 John 3.23).

    This verse doesn't say anything about a person losing eternal life they received at new birth, or a God who is so impotent that He does not foreknow whom to give eternal life to, or He knows, but He is so fickle He takes it back, gives it again and removes it yet again, over and over like a flip flopper. Perhaps you are worshiping God in your own image and character.

    The reason you work so hard for your salvation (e.g. like William Lane Craig, the Roman Church, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) is because you can never really know if you will remain what you deem as being saved, just like Calvinists never really know if they are saved, because it was never their choice. These are two false salvations! The way God saves is to predestinate by foreknowing your free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (OSAS).

    Praise the Lord, initial salvation is not by works lest any man should boast! It is a free and permanent gift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Harris
    What you are saying is that God takes away our ability to choose whom we will serve after we are saved?

    So what you are saying is that God takes away our ability to choose whom we will serve after we are saved? Free moral choice after we are saved, doesn't exist?

    The following is an absolute in tagging the Doctrine of Eternal Security as false: “And hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing . . .” (Heb. 10:29). Without exception, only born-again believers are sanctified by the blood of the covenant (Heb. 10:10); only born-again believers are saved through, and by, the process of faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, only a fallen believer can count the blood of the covenant, “wherewith he was sanctified,” as an unholy thing.

    Affixed to that fact, the surrounding and overall context of Hebrews 10:26 addresses Christians, not unbelievers.
    God doesn't take away your ability to choose but abides in your choice to enter into an eternal covenant with Him to keep a new creation. That is a God you can trust. It would take great pride if you were required to hold yourself in that relationship when you are just a man. Free will, moral choice, doesn't go away anymore than God's free will goes away; but unlike man, He can maintain, you can't-hence the need for preservation of the saints. This takes humility to accept.

    We should realize that the freedom which Paul talks about refers not to position, nor to salvation, but to the Christian’s daily enjoyment of that freedom in grace which God has given us. Such freedom is not licentiousness, not an unrestricted permissiveness to do anything one wishes. This freedom is a freedom before God, given to us through Jesus Christ. If a person comes before God and forgets the blood and looks at himself he is committing a great sin, because he has neglected the blood which God highly values. Hebrews 10.29 tells us that whoever counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing commits a grave sin. The blood is so valuable in God’s sight that the Bible calls it "precious blood". Anyone who fails to look at the precious blood before God will lose the enjoyment of grace in this life (not eternal life).

    "Ye are severed from Christ" in Galatians 5.4 means not having the blessings of this life. If one is saved, he naturally will have the blessings of after life; but if he does not know how to live daily by that which Christ has accomplished, he is not able to enjoy the blessings which Christ gives to him day by day. A shackled Christian makes a yoke for himself to bear; he lives as a slave, not as a freeman before God.

    The Bible places a great emphasis on the work of Christ. It tells us that God accepts us because of the work of Christ, not because of our own works. Each time we come to God it is based on what Christ is before God, not on what we are before Him. For He esteems Christ highly and not us. Even if one should act better than Peter, John and Paul, he still comes to God through Christ. It is Christ who brings a person to God, not his own good works.

    Nonetheless, a way to go to Hell is none other than treading under foot the precious Blood. Hear what the Bible says: "A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ... It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb. 10.28-29,31).

    These verses tell us plainly that a certain class of people will fall into the hands of the living God, suffer His wrath, and receive unspeakable punishment. We know without doubt this is speaking of going to hell. We are told here that whoever violates the law of Moses will die without mercy. Many people seem to be more merciful than God! They think God would never punish sinners with hell. But the Bible says plainly that such a person will die without mercy.

    Following the same trend of thought, it goes on to say that if anyone should tread under foot the Son of God, despise His redeeming blood, and resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit, he will surely go to hell. What is meant by "hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace"? It means that when the Holy Spirit moves in a person’s heart with grace by showing his sins and the salvation which the Son of God has accomplished, by causing him to know how efficacious is this precious Blood to forgive sins, and by persuading him to immediately accept this Blood for the cleansing of all his sins, that person in response resists the request and conviction of the Holy Spirit, loves his sins and uncleanness, and considers the precious blood of the Lord Jesus as insignificant. He may muse within himself as follows: "To listen is one thing, but to believe is too much. I have sinned, but I will continue to commit these my former sins. What do I care if the Son of God loved me and gave himself for me?" By so doing, he is condemning himself to hell because he has trodden under foot the precious Blood.

    Consequently, it is the blood of the covenant wherewith we are sanctified (Heb. 10.29), it is "a better covenant" (Heb. 7.22, 8.6) and "an eternal covenant" (Heb. 13.20). We want to shout Hallelujah! How sweet, how glorious, and full of grace is the New Covenant! Offered to all!

    So not only are rewards addressed ("a great reward" Heb. 10.35) but also those who never enter into the salvation of new birth, for by implication if "The Lord will judge HIS people" (v. 31), how much more those who "drawn back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39) who were never saved to begin with? "Endurance" (v.36) and enjoyment is in focus for believers, not losing eternal life and going to Hell.

    Hebrews 10.26-29 says that the result for its group of people is to be burned with the "fire which shall devour the adversaries"; how then can this latter group ever point to Christians? This passage can mean none but those who have knowingly rejected the gospel, therefore there is no other salvation. Otherwise, why should the word "more" be used in saying "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins"? Why should the word "once" be used repeatedly in the preceding verses? By joining these words within their context, we can easily discern the meaning of the words "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins".

    For more study on Heb. 10.26: http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/question47.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Harris
    No, Jesus in the One who sanctifies--"wherewith He was sanctified"--"He" is not the One who counts the Blood of the Covenant as an unholy thing--GOD FORBID, JESUS NEVER DID THAT! Even if certain manuscripts leave out the word sanctified the context of the passage remains the same--those who wilfully sin after they have received the knowledge of the truth. No wicked person has ever received the knowledge of the truth--only people who are saved receive this knowledge--the knowledge that Christ is the all inclusive sacrifice. Thus, again, believers who turn away from faith in Jesus as a lifestyle, after they have the Holy commandment delivered to them, are returning to the vomit--and they will lose their salvation.
    I agree, Jesus is the One who sanctifies Himself-"wherewith He was sanctified" by the "Blood of the Covenant." If "He" as you say is Jesus, which I agree, then He "who was sanctified" doesn't refer to a saved person as you had previously alleged who then lost his saving sanctification. "He" then, is not the person sanctified who turns away the blood of the covenant. "He" is Jesus. You probably shouldn't legalize the words "knowledge of the truth" in your Roman Church position that you are taking. Many people receive the understanding of the gospel of salvation, the Holy Commandment, but still reject it.

    In the OT the High Priest would go through a sanctification ritual wearing proper garments and performing certain temple activities. Likewise Jesus was our burnt offering, sin offering and High Priest like the old entered Holy of Holies once a year. http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/question47.htm

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10.39)

    Since Jesus wouldn't treat His work as unholy, then "he" must be referring to Jesus "wherewith He was sanctified": that is, Jesus was sanctified. The one who "troddens under foot the Son of God" counted "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he [Jesus] was sanctified" as our High Priest "an unholy thing." "He" is not the one who counts the blood an unholy thing, obviously, since He is our High Priest and graciously is sanctified as our High Priest. The reason I take this position is because "sanctified" is not in the original earliest texts. But if it was in the early texts, I would still read it this way, because I don't feel this is really about coming so close to the Lord as much as it is comparing the once-for-all sanctified with the many sacrifices in the OT mentioned earlier in chapter 10. Even so, it covers any who do come so close to God in verse 26, who have the "knowledge of God" delivered unto them, and still turn back. Therefore, I agree with most Bible commentaries. Perhaps you should read a bunch of them and get a better sense and feel that the position you are taking is the Roman Catholic view, but they are alone as 3 measures leavening the whole.

    Many people receive the knowledge of God but turn back. They are superficial. In appearance they are the tares that look like the saved wheat, but are not. I think Paul addresses both Christians and none Christians in Heb. 10. For example, many gave sacrifices, but were all saved in Israel? And was not Paul just previously talking to Christs in previous paragraph: "Let us hold fast" (v.23).

    And you have to reconcile this with all the other verses in Scripture that say no man can pluck us out of His hand. We can only be born-again once, so under your system, if a person were saved and lost salvation they could never be saved again. I don't think that is loving or sufficient grace.

    Just know there are people who come to the knowledge of the truth like I did 10 years before I was saved and even thought I was saved for 30 days, before giving it up. Afterward, I never gave Jesus a thought until 10 years later, when I gave my life to Christ for real. I can testify I was never saved that 10 years prior. Seeds were planted, but I most certainly sinned "wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth." I think the Lord has blessed me with this experience so I could testify to you about this passage. Spiritual knowledge is not enough. It must be matched with experience in life.

    Brackets often help. "Hath counted the blood of the covenant (wherewith he [Jesus] was sanctified)". The blood of the covenant was Jesus' sanctification, His holy sin bearing.

    So verse 26 is saying people come to knowledge but still reject the salvation. And even believers, there is no more sacrifice for sin; we were once-saved-always-saved, so we will be judged: "Lord shall judge his people" (v.30). Verse 27 says they will go to Hell. 28-If such will happen to people in the OT how much more with so much grace given in Christ. 29-Despite so much grace give by the Spirit, they wilfully still reject the salvation offered.

    A "dog" was never saved in the first place to return to his vomit, so the dog comes and turns back. A dog is in the world. Those who turn back are not really dogs, but swine, for swine represent the false Christians (pigs putting on appearances, cloven hooves outside, but inside they chew their cud), whereas dogs are those in the world (on their paws). Never in the Bible is dog representing a person who was once saved. The Holy Commandment is delivered unto many people who still refuse it, like the disciples in the NT who heard Jesus say eat of my flesh and drink of His blood. They walked away, thus did not have saving faith that keeps, so it was a superficial false faith. Yet you would call such faith real. That's the difference between us. What you call real I call fake. Then you have no comfort because you can lose salvation tomorrow, but I can't. I would never trade my salvation for your salvation in a million years or ever.

    "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [perfect] it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.6). You have to reconcile with the preponderance of evidence and be touched deep inside your innerman. There are just too many verses speaking of OSAS, so all the verses you think a person can lose salvation, they would refer to either the person coming so close to the Lord and "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39) or they truly are Christians, but they are fleshly and carnal, so they lose rewards of returning with Christ (Jude 14,15) to reign during the 1000 years. http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/question47.htm

    I'm sold on what I am selling you. It's awesome! A free gift of everlasting life which nobody can take away, but with consequences for believers if they do not overcometh as warned in Revelation 2 & 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Harris
    "Wherewith He was sanctified"--"Jesus" is not the One who counts the Blood of the Covenant as an unholy thing--GOD FORBID, JESUS NEVER DID THAT! A Christian who has abandoned his faith has done that!
    I agree, since "He [Jesus] was sanctified." The one who counts the blood as unholy is not "He". Since the one who counts the blood as unholy is not "He," then "He" can't be the person who was once saved alleged by non-OSASers as "he was sanctified."

    Your whole argument fails because "He" is Jesus, not an alleged once-saved person sanctified, though no longer.

    Praise the Lord for this discernment (I said same thing in the previous post as well which you overlooked I guess).

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he [the unsaved] be thought worthy [for judgment], who [the unsaved] hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and [the unsaved] hath counted the blood of the covenant (wherewith he [Jesus] was sanctified [as the High Priest]) an unholy thing, and [the unsaved] hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10.29)

    "who hat trodden under foot the Son of God" parallels "hath counted the blood of the covenant" parallels "hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace." (wherewith he was sanctified is an explanation of blood of covenant.)

    There is no record in here in Heb. 10.29 of anyone having been saved. And even if you want to use the RSV version adopted by the Roman Church, that the person was sanctified, it is still God's offering of sanctification [to be made holy and separated for God] to us all as the once-for-all to replace the sacrifices in the previous section of Hebrews 10. Either way, your position is false and you don't know a salvation that can never be lost. And that's sad.

    "He was sanctified" is Jesus, not a person who then lost his faith. Nothing about him who profanes God being saved before. Therefore, a person who wilfully rejects Christ was never saved to begin with; or a person who says he can lose salvation wilfully rejects Christ, for another-a false Christ and a false salvation.

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    If anyone should tread under foot the Son of God, despise His redeeming blood, and resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit, he will surely go to hell. What is meant by "hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace"? It means that when the Holy Spirit moves in a person’s heart with grace by showing his sins and the salvation which the Son of God has accomplished, by causing him to know how efficacious is this precious Blood to forgive sins, and by persuading him to immediately accept this Blood for the cleansing of all his sins, that person in response resists the request and conviction of the Holy Spirit, loves his sins and uncleanness, and considers the precious blood of the Lord Jesus as insignificant. He may muse within himself as follows: "To listen is one thing, but to believe is too much. I have sinned, but I will continue to commit these my former sins. What do I care if the Son of God loved me and gave himself for me?" By so doing, he is condemning himself to hell because he has trodden under foot the precious Blood. This includes those who want a salvation with an out-clause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Harris
    Just rewrite the Scripture and all is fine. However, the truth of the matter is this: For if we (Christians) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (nonbelievers never have received this knowledge), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    KJV
    Should I take this that you are a KJV onlyist? KJV has many mistakes such as confusing Hades for Hell and in Rev. 5 has the saints praising themselves rather than the angels praising God saving the saints. The former has pride associated with it, when the church in Rev. 5 hasn't even been raptured yet. I believe in the Open Bible, that is to say, all the major Bible versions should be considered and all data should be considered, otherwise a person can become narrow-minded.

    I assume you are referring to rewriting Heb. 10.29. You are rewriting Scriptures because the earliest texts (Alexandrian) don't have the word "sanctified" in it. That's why, for example, the NLT (1996) left it out. Perhaps men put that word in there because they wanted to rationalize their shallow salvation. I came to the knowledge of the truth ten years before I was saved even thinking I was saved for about a month, then giving it up, not thinking about Christ for ten years. And then in January, 2001 I was saved for real. The first was superficial not real.

    The latter was real and inner which could never be lost. That's why Heb. 10.26 really touches me. I don't say as you would, that you would have lost your salvation. When I reflect upon my experience with the word of God, I realize I was never saved to begin with that 10 years prior. So I am sure you are misreading Heb. 10.26. You need to match what you deem to be objectivity with experience to be absolutely sure. If you want true salvation, read The Spiritual Man.

    Perhaps you too will one day realize you were never born-again to begin with, then come into a salvation that is true salvation, in your spirit, new birth, in which you can never lose life. This is my prayer for you. It's amazing that what we are discussing actually shows you are not born-again, because in your deepest parts there has not been a quickening because you think it is potentially possible you could lose what you consider to be salvation. That could never be true salvation if you could be born-again and again and again.

    There is a silver lining in this when you claim you can lose salvation. That's actually a good thing! So lose it, and come to Christ! God will save you one-time once-for-all if you are willing. Obviously, you are unwilling and thus "sin wilfully...trodden under foot the Son of God...and have a certain fearful look of fiery indignation which shall devour" you; "counted the blood of the covenant" not to once-saved-always-save. The Scripture describe this as the unsaved "tares" trying to look like the saved wheat, trying to save themselves by works. But the Bible says salvation is by faith, not by works. lest anyone should boast. I can sense your boasting in your own strength. "There is no more sacrifice for sins" because you want an out-clause in your type of salvation.

    Remember, many of those who had thought they believed in Jesus when Jesus said eat of my flesh and drink of my blood ended up walking away. They were never truly saved to begin with. There are just too many verses that point to once-saved-always-saved to hang your hat on Heb. 10.26-29 read your way. Do you sense how men in position of religious power try to control laity by the non-OSAS teaching? I pray that you be honest with yourself about this, that you need more substance in your life than this.

    I believe, therefore, you violate Scripture in your heart. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39). You are not yet persuaded because you are still on the outside appearing to be Christian, but inside not for real yet.

    Ever since I was saved in 2001, I have had a confidence and persuasion that is undeniable so I side with Watchman Nee and Dave Hunt on eternal security, and you can keep siding with the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran and other great institutions of "religious Rome" who don't have that deep inner life. For many more verses on OSAS read here. But my prayer is one day you have a salvation that can never be lost. Amen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Harris
    Heb 10:26 For if we (Christians) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (nonbelievers never have received this knowledge), there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins.
    ASV

    Note: The knowledge is that Christ is the only sacrifice that God accepts!

    2 Peter 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
    ASV

    Nonbelievers have never KNOWN the way of Righteousness; that is, except former believers!
    Oh good, I am glad you are not a KJV onlyist!

    You have added in the word "Christians." You shouldn't do that, for that is altering God's word, because you want a selfish salvation with an out-clause, and you added "nonbelievers never have received this knowledge." God's grace is sufficient for all (OSAS Arminianism). Jesus died for all and the word of God is being spread to the whole world, so don't say nonbelievers have not received this truth. In fact, even someone who hasn't heard the word of God could still be saved, for surely they would receive Christ if they believed in the God who created the mountains and the starts. God is fair, just, gracious and good! If you wanted to include "Christians" as "we" then it only mean loss of enjoyment for believers, not loss of life. For non-believers it means there is no more a sacrifice for sins. Jesus died once-for-all to replace the sacrifices mentioned in earlier verses in chapter 10. Even for Christians who want to live carnally, there is no more sacrifice for sins (they couldn't, for example, lose life, then get saved again, otherwise that would be like the OT of mulitple sacrifices, still living under law trying to keep the law by works and sacrifices). A believer would have to take what He has already got, which is forgiveness by the "precious blood" and build his faith upon that.

    You have come into the knowledge, delivered unto you (by the spreading of the gospel) and know the way of righteousness, but still reject it. It really does help to see a real salvation from a superficial one. You have come up to God and still refuse His way of salvation. There remain no more sacrifice for sins. You as a non-believer who knows what is required of you, still refuse to place your faith in a God who keeps all those who He gives His life to. Just know that you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, but can yet still come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive THE Lord Jesus who keeps eternally.

    How foolish to believe in a God who would give you eternal life, take it away, give it back, take it away, and on and on. Have you not thought that the god you worship is really just a reflection of your own behavior? God who is true, gives life once. Not twice or three times.

    "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish" (John 10.28). Therefore, Robert Harris, you are not God's sheep, because you say you can perish (non-OSAS).

    Proving to the world along with the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Mormons, JW's and many more-all who believe in non-OSAS-in fact the vast bulk of Christendom, you are like them. Doesn't make you feel very special does it to believe in salvation by works? In fact, to ride your version of eternal life is quite obnoxious and arrogant to say the least! You are just a man; you can't keep yourself saved. Oh what pride of man even in things of worship of God!

    This knowing it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose salvation is true authentic life! That's the faith that lasts. The faith of non-OSAS is one which like gravity eventually gravitates to where you lose it and and are lost in Hell. I can imagine you in Hell for eternity still claiming back to God you want a salvation with an "out-clause." That strikes one as insanity! But there is a blessing in disguise: if you can lose your current faith of salvation by works, admittedly which can be lost, that opens up the door to receive the faith in Christ that can never be lost. Then praise the Lord!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Harris
    I've been saved for years; like I said before-eternal security, that doctrine, is not a prerequisite for salvation, and no Scrtipture says that it is. You twist Scripture to fit your doctrine--and add to it instead of letting it read the way it was written. If you continue to accuse your brothers of not being saved then the Lord will deal with you. It's His good pleasure (2 Thess. 1:6).The Scripture says, in 1st John 3:7--(My) little children , let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous: AVS
    Anyone who has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and uses it, is righteous. In fact the New Testament standard for righteousness is faith alone. No one is saved by knowledge--only by faith in the Lord Jesus saves!
    Lot's of people think they have been saved for years. You too eh? 1 in 3 people on earth call themselves Christians, but are they all saved? Jesus said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom" (Matt. 7.21) which can apply to both Christians who lose rewards, and false Christians like tares who try to look like the saved wheat, "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way" (Matt. 13.25). There are many in the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven that are unsaved though they may at first appear to be Christians. The judgment on the tares is going to be great when Jesus brings His "sickle" to them.

    We all have the law written upon our hearts, so that knowledge that we have leaves us without excuse, therefore if you still pride yourself over others you think were not given knowledge (like Calvinists teach) so they couldn't be saved, you are just self-exalting yourself. Each step of the way, your pride is found out. The truth is we all have been given the knowledge (objective morality, law written upon our hearts) to worship the God of the mountains and the stars to believe in Him by faith. So anyone who believes and sees Jesus would surely accept Him. His grace of coming into the world is grace upon grace and is our perfect ransom paid.

    You are trying to add into the text what the verses don't say and at the same time shutting your mind down to the other verses I gave you showing once-saved-always-saved. This is the kind of superficial salvation God is talking about of coming to knowledge but not receiving the quickening the Holy Spirit in your spirit for regeneration. Just know you worship a god who is impotent, unable to keep you with certainty. He does not have that power, since you say you can lose it. Therefore, you never had it, not real life. Perhaps by this selfish salvation you get to cling onto things you would not be able to otherwise.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

    While you drop your standards and say this doesn't matter, you will find out it is your pathway to Hell and divides eternally. I am glad I won't be in the New City with people priding themselves over me telling me they think they can lose salvation, but they are so strong in themselves they have been able to keep themselves saved. I feel "defiled" around such attitudes.

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8).

    Like C.S. Lewis said, you are like a person arguing on a train and when you get to the train station, you are still priding yourself over your unBiblical way of salvation with an "out-clause" and arguing that you can keep your "alleged" salvation. When you go to your respective town, eventually you tire because Christians don't agree with you. You ride off into the sunset. Off in the horizon, you can be found building a shack. And inside, you are repeating the words, "I told you so." That's what Hell is going to be like for you which you have a foretaste of even now. It is a Hell to worship a god who can't keep you with absolute assuredness. You are still going to think you are saved (if you don't lose what you currently believe) and that you can keep your own salvation on your own strength. What a horrible state to be in. I would feel horrible if that is what I also believed. May you feel disgusted too if you still believed that, turning to repent; then Christians will know you are our brother in Christ.

    I am sure you have led many people astray and God will judge you for that, making your stay in Hell worse than most. Those who have come so close to God and still turn back like you do to worship a god who doesn't have the POWER to once-save-always-save is man who exalts himself in pride in his works to keep himself, not realizing a sinner can't keep himself. That's arrogance! He still doesn't have an appreciation for what he is-a sinner! How evil it is to worship a god who whips you around like a boomerang, saving you, unsaving you, then saving you again. You're flip flopper. Surely, God is not like that. Men make God in their own image.

    You have the same problem as Muslims, Roman Church, Mormons, etc. Salvation keeping by works. You're using Jesus unrighteously. We shall know them by their fruits. Priding yourself over others you can keep your salvation is misusing His name.

    May these words help lead you to Christ one day, to enter into a permanent and keeping relationship. That's what God wants and is able to do. Why want less than what God wants?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Harris
    As a consequence, all who name Christ are not predestinated unto eternal salvation, neither are all foreknown. For some have forsaken obedience to the fulfilling of His commandments by love (2 John 6, 9). Certainly, this disqualifies those who abandon their faith repeatedly with willful intent and knowledge (Heb. 10:26; Jude Vs. 12).
    Your verses don't read like the Bible. "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son" (2 John 6,9 KJV).

    As a consequence? I think you should have said something first before saying "as a consequence" then we can look at your conclusions.

    Heb. 10.26 doesn't say the person who has come to "knowledge" is born-again, for he still has to repent and believe to be regenerated. Who says those in Jude 12 were saved before?

    Try to read the passages without inserting into the text.

    Minding the earthly things of this life, these have relinquished the next; they know neither the inner love of God, nor God Himself (1 John 4:8). Equally as important, God doesn’t know them (1 John 2:3-4). Weeping for those who once walked the walk of salvation, Paul imparted these very truths (Phil. 3:15-21).
    1 John 4.8 does not say that those who don't love God were once saved.

    1 John 2.3-4 they are not known because they were never born-again. "Hereby we know that we know him," the apostle John declared, "if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2.3-4). He who keeps the words of the Lord Jesus, he alone has truth in his heart; he who does not keep His commandments does not know Him, for he is a liar. Are not the words and commandments of Christ recorded in the four Gospels? If so, then how can we say we obey Him if we do not observe those direct commandments of His found in the Gospels?

    Our forefather sinned through disobedience (see Rom. 5.19). All the people in the world are "sons of disobedience" (Eph. 2.2). But God not only has saved us from future punishment but has also saved us unto holiness and obedience. Obedience is of utmost importance. Please read Romans 15.18, 16.26; 1 Corinthians 7.19; 1 Thessalonians 4.1-2; 2 Peter 3.2; and Hebrews 5.9.

    Phil. 3.15-21 doesn't say anything about those who walked the walk of salvation and now are unsaved. Again, you in_sert into the text because of your way of salvation which is not God's way. Salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast. You are weeping for people who were once saved is delusional, for God said, "These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). How could a man know he had eternal life, passed out of death into life, if he had not been justified by faith which could never be lost? He couldn't.

    The Law of God is to be fulfilled by the use of agape love toward others by Christians (Gal. 5:14); especially our brothers and sisters in Christ are to be loved. Your condemnation and judgement is, which is rampant in many Christians, is not the love of God in action. You will know them by their fruits--and you are consistently not using the love of God in your communication. Faith only works by the use of agape love--Christ is a mere seed when He starts off in a new Christian--Will He remain a mere seed in you? Will you condemn yourself by your own judgement and condemnation of others? Faith must continue in the saved, it is a process. But how can it continue and grow, when a person is supposedly rejoicing in Christ, while judging and condemning others?
    Loving others and loving God are not mutually exclusive affairs. You are desperately grasping for straws to rationalize the idea you can lose salvation tomorrow. What an insecure salvation you have. Do you see how you try to do damage to the body of Christ by trying to tell Christians they can lose salvation tomorrow? How wicked are your works! God gives us confidence, but your faith gives you nothing but doubt. You are projecting your own condition not having love in your own words, denying before God His ability to keep His own, but like a tyrant you wield over others with pride your strength to keep yourself saved. People just don't have your power. Maybe you don't either! How can you even become a seed rising up with God's love in you if you refuse to repent and believe in a God who keeps you to the uttermost? Don't think I am condemning you, but you are condemning yourself, for it is your own choice to be unwilling to believe in Christ who gives His own "everlasting life, and [we] shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5.24).

    You are duplicitous with your words, for you say don't judge, but then you judge in the very same sentence you say not to judge. Using your own standards, how can you ever grow? I won't be condemned for the condemnation that is upon you, because I don't believe what you believe and I don't worship what you worship. How can you have fellowship with the body of Christ if you refuse God's way of salvation? To be in the Church you must be a member of the body of Christ. There is no germination available for growth without God's life. You can't have true fellowship in Christ because you will always exalt a pride above us with your strength of your keeping faith rather that God's faithfulness to keep us with His actions, interventions, love and grace. So you remain in dissension with true born-again believers. Eventually you will choke the good seed, so God will brings His sickle to you.

    You will not be saved until you first repent of salvation by works. We are saved by faith, not by works, lest any man should boast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Harris
    "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son" (2 John 6,9 KJV).

    No, the Greek details agape love, or Christ's love flowing out to others. We are to agape love our neighbor, How much more so our brothers and sisters in Christ? You, under any interpretation of love are not very loving toward me.
    It is because I have God's love I can say to you that you are misreading this verse, because nowhere specifically does it say a person can lose salvation, and so, you can trust in God to keep you. You don't have to keep worshiping your god who can't.

    Luke 9:62 But Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. ASV

    Under your interpretation, no man born again can or does or has looked back. But this is not why Christ uttered these words of warning--one can look back.
    This is the kingdom of rewards for the millennium. We know that a straight line is the shortest distance between two points. From this world to the region beyond, our Lord walked a straight path. "No man," He said, "having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9.62). What does this mean? It means that he whose hand is on the plow must have his eyes looking straight ahead, or else the furrow he plows will become crooked. If his eyes look forward, then that which he plows is straight. But if he should glance backwards, what he plows instantly becomes crooked. Oh let us see that God does not wish us to turn aside or to turn about. He alone is to be our satisfaction.

    In no way should you interpret this verse as a person losing eternal life. You are like a pinball where you can never find support for your false teaching so you keep hitting other verses but each time you in_sert into the text. "And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit" (1 Cor. 2.13). It is a very dangerous thing to keep reading the Bible without the Spirit.

    One who is saved may look back but not without consequence though not able to lose eternal life since all our sins are covered by the "precious blood." Your's aren't you admit, because you don't allow faithless to be covered also, so you are not truly born-again. God does not expect us to be able to keep our salvation. He only requires that we choose His Son, and day by day, He will with our cooperation perfect us in Him. He can't help you though if you still rely on self to keep you eternally saved. You're acting like God and so you will perish. Think how strange it would be if Paul was saying he was talking about losing eternal life: "Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead" (Phil. 3.13). He is running the good race and is a motivation to others, not suggesting he might not cross the finish line. The passage in Luke is about overcoming and we need to sacrifice, just like in Matthew 8.

    Hades has no power to hold back this life. And what has been deposited in the believer is this very same life. For this reason, Hades cannot withhold us either. Believers shall be resurrected first, because of their having this life. As to non-believers, though, their life will be detained by Hades after their death. Resurrection is the life which cannot be held back. However vicious the environment—trial, persecution, malice, murder, and so forth—and though we may be walled in on all sides, we have a life which can neither be withheld nor overcome by any environment. My prayer one day is you receive this same life, because this is God's will for you to stop refusing His love, but He won't force your hand.

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