What's Illusory? God or a Magical Universe

[DD2014]

There are some universally accepted things we put people in jails for because of their sin, so sin is real and denial of it is sinful.

Ummm...we put people in jails because of crimes, thats why we call them criminals.

Different governments around the world have different laws and punishments for those laws. According to you if sin was real we would all have the same laws and punishments for breaking those laws.

...you can't have objective morals without God

Prove it

At one time human sacrifices and throwing children in the mouth of the Molech god was acceptable and other times or dispensations it is not. We could just as easily bring back such practices.

Mabey those people figured out that God is not real, so they didn't need to kill their kids anymore.

Our knowledge of sin, therefore, is not invented by man, but we are made aware of it by the law given to us by God and which is imprinted on our own hearts.

Prove it

The law, and what is written on our own hearts objectively and universally agreed, brings out the fact that we are sinners.

Objectively and universally agreed by who?

For the purposes of the proof, you only need concern yourself with that which we observe and see where it leads

I have not observed God, that leads me to conclude that God does not exist.

The exponential progression of conscience and the counterpart reduction of sin on a per capita basis through the millennia proves God, because we would not still be sinning to the extent we still do if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects.

Ok give me a per capita crime rate for Mongolia in the 3rd century.

[Churchwork]

we put people in jails because of crimes, thats why we call them criminals. Different governments around the world have different laws and punishments for those laws. According to you if sin was real we would all have the same laws and punishments for breaking those laws.

Take for example murder. No nation on earth condones murder. They all punish this crime. Just because the punishments vary, doesn't mean murder is not a sin. Therefore sin exists. I think you should be concerned with your state of mind, because you think rape, murder, stealing is not a sin. It's fair game. Remind me not to be around you when you have a gun in your hand, you could go off at any moment since killing people is not a sin to you. This is where I come and say, you're a bad guy.

You wanted me to prove objective morals don't exist without God. You just proved that if God doesn't exist then objective morality doesn't exist. You think rape, murder and stealing are not sins, whereas others think they are sins. But who is to say which of us is right if there is no God? Anything goes. Relativism rules the day! If God doesn't exist then it doesn't matter. After all, we all meet the same end and cease to exist without consequence for sin after we die.

Mabey those people figured out that God is not real, so they didn't need to kill their kids anymore.

The reason they stopped child sacrifices is because Israel annihilated them. They were annihilated because they refused to stop killing their own children generation after generation. Since a loving God does not condone murder, receiving human sacrifices is not in His nature. Therefore, isn't it more reasonable to conclude they rejected the One True God just as atheists do, who also think murder is not a sin? In time, you will like them have to be subjugated to the fiery pits of hell. And your argument will be equally wrong then as it is now claiming murder is not a sin, only that, you won't be able to carry it out anymore, just like the tribes of Canaan can't either.

You wanted me to prove this statement: "Our knowledge of sin, therefore, is not invented by man, but we are made aware of it by the law given to us by God and which is imprinted on our own hearts."

What did I say that preceded the "...therefore"? "You can't have objective morals without God, otherwise morality is" relative, e.g. some people consider murder a sin and others don't such as yourself.

Objectively and universally agreed by who?

By everyone including you. You take exception to being murdered.

I have not observed God, that leads me to conclude that God does not exist.

I didn't ask you to observe God to know if God exists, but rather, observe the evidence of nature always requiring a cause and the exponential progression of conscience leads to the conclusion God exists.

Ok give me a per capita crime rate for Mongolia in the 3rd century.

If you can't find that data after you contact that Mongolian government department of crime, then just observe that human sacrifices were quite prevalent among the nations, but today virtually non-existent, women can vote now just this past century, polygamy is outlawed and there are more democracies than ever before.

[DD2014]

Take for example murder. No nation on earth condones murder. They all punish this crime. Just because the punishments vary, doesn't mean murder is not a sin. Therefore sin exists.

No but the people in EVERY nation are still killing. Someone is condoning it.

I think you should be concerned with your state of mind, because you think rape, murder, stealing is not a sin. It's fair game. Remind me not to be around you when you have a gun in your hand, you could go off at any moment since killing people is not a sin to you. This is where I come and say, you're a bad guy.

"Sins" don't exist. But that does not make rape, murder or stealing right, don't you see? Adding a magical deity adds nothing to why killing, stealing ect. is wrong. It is wrong because it hurts us as a society.

You assume that because I don't get my morals from a magical sky king that I have none, that is ignorant.

You wanted me to prove objective morals don't exist without God. You just proved that if God doesn't exist then objective morality doesn't exist. You think rape, murder and stealing are not sins, whereas others think they are sins.

I'm not saying that they are not sins (well..they aren't) I'm saying that the consept of sin is man made.

But who is to say which of us is right if there is no God? Anything goes. Relativism rules the day!

You have a brain, use it. Don't be stupid, make choises that don't screw people over.

If God doesn't exist then it doesn't matter. After all, we all meet the same end and cease to exist without consequence for sin after we die.

Ya but if you go around killing people chances are you will be killed as well. Is that not a consequence?

The reason they stopped child sacrifices is because Israel annihilated them. They were annihilated because they refused to stop killing their own children generation after generation. Since a loving God does not condone murder, receiving human sacrifices is not in His nature. Therefore, isn't it more reasonable to conclude they rejected the One True God just as atheists do, who also think murder is not a sin?

Really? I didn't know Israel got around to south America?

LOL! Killing to stop the killing. Hypocritical much?

In time, you will like them have to be subjugated to the fiery pits of hell.

LOL! Gotta throw the Ol' fiery pit of hell in there.

If you can't find that data after you contact that Mongolian government department of crime, then just observe that human sacrifices were quite prevalent among the nations, but today virtually non-existent, women can vote now just this past century, polygamy is outlawed and there are more democracies than ever before.

It was sarcasm. My point is: You don't know the global crime rate today let alone 10, 20, 500 or 6000 years ago. So don't use incomplete or nonexistant data to prove your consepts.

[Churchwork]

No but the people in EVERY nation are still killing. Someone is condoning it.

Because the person who is committing the crime thinks it is alright, therefore not a sin!? Do you actually believe that? 99+% of people will say murder is wrong, therefore it is a sin. Period. Just because there are some bad apples doesn't mean there are no bad apples.

"Sins" don't exist. But that does not make rape, murder or stealing right, don't you see? Adding a magical deity adds nothing to why killing, stealing ect. is wrong. It is wrong because it hurts us as a society.

The dictionary considers rape, murder and stealing a sin (without any mention of God), so until you can get them to change the definition (since this is the usage commonly used in history, even without mention of God), it stands, whether you like it or not: "any act regarded as a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some moral principle. Any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time. To offend against a principle, standard, etc."

No mention of God here exists. All we are first doing is establishing sin exists. Don't assume more than that; don't assume a deity make things better or worse. Whether God gives revelation about these sins or not is not the argument for Step 1 & Step 4 of the 4 Step Proof for God. Try to understand that. Stay on topic. Later if you like we can discern if having a deity makes things better or worse to understand these sins.

You assume that because I don't get my morals from a magical sky king that I have none, that is ignorant.

No I don't believe that. I believe you and other atheists can be moral, e.g. you can help an old lady across the street. Again, that's not what we are discussing. Just stick to the very precise discussion about the very specific 4 step proof for God. In Christianity, moral acts don't save a person, for salvation is not by works. But there is a certain morality of repenting and believing in Christ that does save, the minimum condition for salvation. And atheists don't have this morality, because they prefer their sin nature, selfishness, disobediency and independency to God.

I'm not saying that they are not sins (well..they aren't) I'm saying that the consept of sin is man made.

There really are things that are wrong, that's what a sin is. Did man make it up or God? Who ultimately does it come from? Since God is proven in the 4 Step Proof for God, you know God is ultimately source why these things are wrong. Man didn't create himself.

You have a brain, use it. Don't be stupid, make choises that don't screw people over.

Of course, but that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing the proof for God. Someone thinks rape is acceptable, another person doesn't. In atheism, why is the raper any more wrong than the ones who opposes rape (they both think they have good reasons)? Where is the objective moral values in that? They seem to plead objective moral values only when it is happening to them, so they betray their earlier conviction there is no objective moral values or that objective moral values don't need a God. For objective morals to exist (if you accept this premise), there must be a God who defines those objective moral values, otherwise they are true for some but not others: relativism. Whether you like them or not is irrelevant. God doesn't need you to accept objective moral values for them to be true. What is proven doesn't become unproven by someone who denies objective moral values or objective moral values don't need a God. If most people accept the proof for the reasons given why it is proof then it is proven if it meets the standards of evidentialism, non-contradiction and has the best explanatory scope.

Ya but if you go around killing people chances are you will be killed as well. Is that not a consequence?

Sure, but in a few decades, what does it matter? You meet the same end anyway. Maybe you want to die sooner, so killing people is no problem for you. Nothing really matters all that much in an atheistic world. You can try to think it is has some value, but in the end its all the same. Death and annihilation. No big consequences, not when you compare it to the vastness of what appears to be a never ending universe and a universe that has been around for 13.7 billion years. What's a couple decades?

Really? I didn't know Israel got around to south America?

LOL! Killing to stop the killing. Hypocritical much?

I am only explaining Israel's part. There could be other ways God stopped human sacrifices in other parts of the globe. Since no other method worked generation after generation to stop the murder of children in human sacrifices, that was Israel's responsibility to end those approximately 10 tribes in the land of milk and honey. If a gun is held to your head do you not have a right to defend yourself?

LOL! Gotta throw the Ol' fiery pit of hell in there.

Seems most apt to bring up once and awhile, for you want to be eternally separated from God, so God gives you what you want. Why be upset by it?

It was sarcasm. My point is: You don't know the global crime rate today let alone 10, 20, 500 or 6000 years ago. So don't use incomplete or nonexistant data to prove your consepts.

You don't need to know the exact figures. You can read history to know the crime and murder rate per capita is down significantly. As much as you think these things are happening now, they are much better today than in previous centuries.

To recap:

1) There cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects due to the exponential progression of conscience, for mankind would not still be sinning to the extent it still does since we would have approximated into that eternity of the past.

2) Since something can't come from nothing, the universe can't start up all by itself. It requires a cause.

3) Don't bear false witness against God, otherwise you are arguing against something else, not God of the Bible.

4) For the same reason as Step 1, there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects outside the natural realm.

Praise the Lord!

[DD2014]

Because the person who is committing the crime thinks it is alright, therefore not a sin!? Do you actually believe that? 99+% of people will say murder is wrong, therefore it is a sin. Period. Just because there are some bad apples doesn't mean there are no bad apples.

If 99% of people say murder is wrong. THEN ITS WRONG! Adding a mystical devine law does nothing. If its wrong, its wrong. If its right, its right.

The dictionary considers rape, murder and stealing a sin (without any mention of God), so until you can get them to change the definition (since this is the usage commonly used in history, even without mention of God), it stands, whether you like it or not: "any act regarded as a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some moral principle. Any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time. To offend against a principle, standard, etc."'

I did not see murder, killing, rape or stealing referred to as a sin.

There really are things that are wrong, that's what a sin is

Sin is a word, made by man.

Did man make it up or God? Who ultimately does it come from?

There lies the problem. God won't talk to me (whatever the reason) so I must trust the 6000 year old bronze age towel head that don't know where the rain comes from.

Sure, but in a few decades, what does it matter? You meet the same end anyway. Maybe you want to die sooner, so killing people is no problem for you. Nothing really matters all that much in an atheistic world. You can try to think it is has some value, but in the end its all the same. Death and annihilation. No big consequences, not when you compare it to the vastness of what appears to be a never ending universe and a universe that has been around for 13.7 billion years. What's a couple decades?

Animals have been here longer then we have. They have no morals, they kill, steal and rape. Why don't they go to hell? Why are they not annihilated like you claim would happen to us?

I am only explaining Israel's part. There could be other ways God stopped human sacrifices in other parts of the globe. Since no other method worked generation after generation to stop the murder of children in human sacrifices, that was Israel's responsibility to end those approximately 10 tribes in the land of milk and honey.

So to save the children from being sacrificed, Israel killed the entire tribe, including the children.

Thats stupid. :

Seems most apt to bring up once and awhile, for you want to be eternally separated from God, so God gives you what you want. Why be upset by it?

If upset is the same as Laughing, why not be?

You don't need to know the exact figures. You can read history to know the crime and murder rate per capita is down significantly.

So you should be able to give me a crime rate for the world in a given year.

As much as you think these things are happening now, they are much better today than in previous centuries.

Untill it happens to you. Or your friend (one of my friends got shot 4 times last saterday).

[Churchwork]

If 99% of people say murder is wrong. THEN ITS WRONG! Adding a mystical devine law does nothing. If its wrong, its wrong. If its right, its right.

All we are doing is first establishing objective moral values do exist which I think you agree because you said murder is wrong and you would take offense if someone tried to murder you. Where do objective moral values come from? Did man create them or did God create them? Even if most people changed their minds and accepted murder, would you agree with me in saying murder is still objectively wrong?

Therefore, even if man changed his mind, the objective moral values remain which show us God is the source of them and not man, because there is something intrinsically affecting us that speaks to our conscience that is greater than ourselves even if everyone in our city we lived in accepted murder as acceptable. So objective moral values require the existence of God.

You said: "I did not see murder, killing, rape or stealing referred to as a sin." You would not include the moral principle do not murder, do not rape and do not steal as a transgression, great fault, regrettable action, reprehensible, lapse in judgment? What can one say to you except you are morally decrepit.

Sin is a word, made by man.

It's a word that has meaning in the dictionary definition given. Man couldn't speak words if God didn't give us this ability. A universe without life can't produce that which has life: mind, will emotion, self-consciousness, God-consciousness, conscience, intuition, communion.

The dictionary considers rape, murder and stealing a sin (without any mention of God), so until you can get them to change the definition (since this is the usage commonly used in history, even without mention of God), it stands, whether you like it or not: "any act regarded as a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some moral principle. Any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time. To offend against a principle, standard, etc."'

There lies the problem. God won't talk to me (whatever the reason) so I must trust the 6000 year old bronze age towel head that don't know where the rain comes from.

Don't blame people in history because they didn't have as much scientific knowledge as we have today, just as people of the future should not accuse us today for not knowing something we haven't acquired information yet to understand. Don't use this as an excuse to reject God. Just as people from previous millennia knew God exists by observing nature and not needing God to speak to them, we can know God today. Your mistaken assumption is you need God to speak to you in some unbeknownst way. But that's not how God works. Yes, some people receive intuitive revelation or visions, but you can't demand these from God. If God only wants you to realize the objective proof of the resurrection and the universe did not always exist and can't create itself or life, then humbly accept this and if God wants to provide you revelation in a deeper way at some future date, be willing and reading without expectations.

Since you can find no naturalistic explanation for the resurrection data and you can't disprove the 4 Step Proof for God, then accept God exists, was revealed in Christ, and get to know Him by reading His word. If you find the word of God too heavy and need some help, I suggest reading The Spiritual Man which will help you in the dividing of your spirit, soul and body so you are more open to receive revelation in your spirit to walk by your spirit in Christ. This will be your willingness to come to Him with an honest heart instead of complaining all the time. Sense in yourself a selfish impatience. A trillion years is a long time and you want it all now?

Animals have been here longer then we have. They have no morals, they kill, steal and rape. Why are they not annihilated like you claim would happen to us?

I don't claim humans are annihilated. Animals do cease to exist (annihilation) because they don't have God-consciousness. Every soul since the first Adamic man from about six thousand years ago will never cease to exist. They are permanently existing; only a few receive eternal life, the rest eternal damnation. Animals have a certain level of morality, but not made in God's image like man has.

Why do animals kill, steal and rape? It's because of sin that came into the world from the fall of Lucifer. God hated that sin so much He made the earth desolate and waste in Gen. 1.2. But God wanted man, so He restored creation and in so doing He had to split the firmament, the waters above from below. This was summed up by Day 2 in which was the only day not called a good day, because when this happened unavoidably up came some of those demons that were cast into the deep. So sin still affected the animals in the restoration even before Adam, e.g. one of those demons came into the serpent in the Garden. Animals have had a rough time of it to say the least. There will be no more animals when the New City arrives.

The Bible explains these things as a consequence of sin. You have no explanation other than it is the joy of killing in naturalism and atheism, and there is no sin. You're a bad guy, why God created Hell. If I were you, what I would do is starting reading the Bible very slowly and conscientiously from the beginning, because it is showing you in many various ways you are a sinner. Get the New Living Translation Life Application Study Bible. It is easy to read and the study notes are awesome! It is the number one study study Bible in the world.

So to save the children from being sacrificed, Israel killed the entire tribe, including the children.

Thats stupid.

Nah, it's stupid to let such murder continue for hundreds and thousands of years more. You need a conscience to see this. Just think how corrupted the world would be if it continued. Every week chop chop square in Iran and Saudi Arabia would be extended to anyone as a sacrifice and televised for young children to grow up and hope they get selected one day. Crazy stuff! You really don't see the consequence of sin do you? You have a darkened mind.

If upset is the same as Laughing, why not be?

If that's what you want, you can laugh for eternity burning in Hell. Your choice. Personally, I think you are coo coo for cocoa puffs.

So you should be able to give me a crime rate for the world in a given year.

How can you know that exactly? What you can know is if it was better or worse by the literature you read of historical events. Look at Rome, They crucified people on crosses for miles. A much greater percentage of the population died in wars. you think there is a lot of fighting now with nearly 7 billion souls. War was the status quo in ancient history.

Untill it happens to you. Or your friend (one of my friends got shot 4 times last saterday).

Even if it happens to someone you know, the data doesn't lie. The murder rate per capita was greater then than it is now. Just read ancient literature to see how much killing was going on. There is no comparison to today with nearly 7 billion people.

[DD2014]

All we are doing is first establishing objective moral values do exist which I think you agree because you said murder is wrong and you would take offense if someone tried to murder you. Where do objective moral values come from? Did man create them or did God create them? Even if most people changed their minds and accepted murder, would you agree with me in saying murder is still objectively wrong?

Ok, first let us clear things up a bit. What type of murder are we talking about? Just the act of killing, or premeditated murder?

It's a word that has meaning in the dictionary definition given. Man couldn't speak words if God didn't give us this ability.

Ko ko the gorilla could communicate, she could love, is she also able to be "saved".

Don't blame people in history because they didn't have as much scientific knowledge as we have today, just as people of the future should not accuse us today for not knowing something we haven't acquired information yet to understand.

If they are devinely inspired enough to talk to god, they should know simple science. Instead of superstitiously sacrificing animals for "good luck".

Don't use this as an excuse to reject God. Just as people from previous millennia knew God exists by observing nature and not needing God to speak to them, we can know God today. Your mistaken assumption is you need God to speak to you in some unbeknownst way.

When I said "talk" I didn't mean "speak" more along the lines of, something that cannot be denyed, or a strong pull (if you want to call it that).

The point is, God has not given me anything I would attribute to an all powerful, all loving, all knowing creator (at least not the God of the bible).

Since you can find no naturalistic explanation for the resurrection data

Pick the one you like best.

1.) Highly exaggerated

2.) A story (fictional)

Why do animals kill, steal and rape? It's because of sin that came into the world from the fall of Lucifer. God hated that sin so much He made the earth desolate and waste in Gen. 1.2. But God wanted man, so He restored creation and in so doing He had to split the firmament, the waters above from below. This was summed up by Day 2 in which was the only day not called a good day, because when this happened unavoidably up came some of those demons that were cast into the deep. So sin still affected the animals in the restoration even before Adam, e.g. one of those demons came into the serpent in the Garden. Animals have had a rough time of it to say the least. There will be no more animals when the New City arrives.

Genesis 1:6-8

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Nope. No Lucifer, demons, or sin mentioned. Try again.

You have no explanation other than it is the joy of killing in naturalism and atheism, and there is no sin.

The joy of killing? Where are you getting this? Personally I am sickened when I read about all the killing in the bible. So please don't assume that I take joy out of something I hope never have to do.

You're a bad guy, why God created Hell.

I'm a bad guy because I don't belive what you belive?

Nah, it's stupid to let such murder continue for hundreds and thousands of years more. You need a conscience to see this. Just think how corrupted the world would be if it continued. Every week chop chop square in Iran and Saudi Arabia would be extended to anyone as a sacrifice and televised for young children to grow up and hope they get selected one day. Crazy stuff! You really don't see the consequence of sin do you? You have a darkened mind.

I just think its funny when you say child sacrifice is bad and in your "Good Book" is says things like this:

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Killed 42 kids 'cause they called Elisha "baldhead"? Stupid much?
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Sounds moral, huh? Exactly what a all loving and Just God would do, kill babies.

If that's what you want, you can laugh for eternity burning in Hell. Your choice. Personally, I think you are coo coo for cocoa puffs.

I'm laughing at the thought of burning for eternity in imagination land.

Even if it happens to someone you know, the data doesn't lie. The murder rate per capita was greater then than it is now. Just read ancient literature to see how much killing was going on. There is no comparison to today with nearly 7 billion people.

So why don't you tell me what you are reading so I can get incomplete "data" and I can make my own guesses.

[Churchwork]

Ok, first let us clear things up a bit. What type of murder are we talking about? Just the act of killing, or premeditated murder?

Premeditated murder.

Ko ko the gorilla could communicate, she could love, is she also able to be "saved".

She doesn't have God-consciousness so salvation doesn't apply to her.

If they are devinely inspired enough to talk to god, they should know simple science. Instead of superstitiously sacrificing animals for "good luck".

The temporary measure of the animal sacrifice was a symbolic gesture pointing to their coming Messiah who is the once-for-all sacrifice replacing all animal sacrifices. Basic science tells us, sin gets punished and must be atoned for. I thought you said you agreed with science?

When I said "talk" I didn't mean "speak" more along the lines of, something that cannot be denyed, or a strong pull (if you want to call it that).

The point is, God has not given me anything I would attribute to an all powerful, all loving, all knowing creator (at least not the God of the bible).

If you want to be pulled and forced you are shopping in the wrong place. You testify to the proof God of the Bible gave because you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the resurrection and you still can't bring about a simple replicating life to prove abiogenesis.

Pick the one you like best.

1.) Highly exaggerated

2.) A story (fictional)

Jesus walked the earth, the disciples spent three years with Him, He died on the cross, and they truly believed they saw Him over 40 days after. What's to exaggerate? Paul was a real person, so was Luke, Mark, John and Peter in their written testimonies. The church fathers knew some of them personally and record their martyrdoms, so I am not sure how you get fiction out of it. Enemy attestation from the Jews and Romans don't deny these facts, but report on some of them. You would have to accept all of antiquity as fiction by your claim, but I don't think you do that. You really believe history records certain facts. You're doublestandard betrays you.

Genesis 1:6-8
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Nope. No Lucifer, demons, or sin mentioned. Try again.

Why would you expect Lucifer, demons or sin to be mentioned specifically? The account is focusing on the positive. But you do have to explain why Day 2 was not called a good day like the other days. It's because the demons were cast into the deep and when the split the firmament some came up.

The joy of killing? Where are you getting this? Personally I am sickened when I read about all the killing in the bible. So please don't assume that I take joy out of something I hope never have to do.

God is sick of the killing also, so you agree with God. But try to understand the point. God explains why killing occurs, but in atheism, I am not sure why Hitler is not justified naturalistically for what he did? Why is his acts any better than the allies?

I'm a bad guy because I don't belive what you belive?

You are a bad guy because God proved Himself to you and you still reject Him without just cause.

I just think its funny when you say child sacrifice is bad and in your "Good Book" is says things like this:

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

These were swift judgments under the law because the evil under the old dispensation was rampant. Without these measures Israel would not have survived as a nation to usher in the Messiah.

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

This was necessary, because it was a battle zone in Canaan. It was basically kill or be killed. Those idols could have corrupted Israel and extinguished her permanently.

Killed 42 kids 'cause they called Elisha "baldhead"? Stupid much?
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

Isaiah was the most spiritual man alive at the time, the greatest prophet of the OT, so to be attacked like that has grave consequences. It would be comparable to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Again, if Israel let's this kind of attitude run amok, Israel would not have survived. As it was they barely survived as a nation. Hitler almost finally finished them off after being dispersed for 2500 years. It's a miracle they are nation again in 1948 because of those measures take and the law given to them by God. You may say they are wrong, but they remain. You may say Christians are wrong, but God resurrects us and you will be resurrected for Hell. What will you say then?

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

What other national God speaks against his own people like the Lord of Israel does? You can see why it was a genuine testimony. God hates sin even the sin of of Israel, so they were banished from their land and sent to Babylon. You keep accusing God, but you never see the consequence of sin.

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

This is God's hatred of sin and idol worshipers.

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Egypt enslaved Israel for 430 years and after 9 plagues the Pharaoh still refused to release them. God wanted his people out of Egypt--a type for the world. That's what it took. Otherwise Israel would have been enslaved for hundreds of years more. You're defending this evil? Your problem is you don't think things through because you are clouded by your own immorality and sin nature. The firstborn ate of last remaining grain which was diseased or infected which killed the firstborn.

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

It's conditional. If Israel sins, she won't have victory.

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

Sin has consequences. Starting to get the picture yet?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Children die as a result of sinful nations. These things happen even in your atheist world, but you have no way of explaining it because you deny sin exists. These things are good things as far as an atheist is concerned for what makes them any worse? They are naturally happening according to nature's course.

Sounds moral, huh? Exactly what a all loving and Just God would do, kill babies.

Whose killing babies but at the hands of man? God is just reporting what sin does.

I'm laughing at the thought of burning for eternity in imagination land.

You want to be eternally separated from God, so you will get your wish in the fires of judgment, not natural burning fires that always burn out. You might be confusing the allegory with the physical. What a lame way to reject God.

So why don't you tell me what you are reading so I can get incomplete "data" and I can make my own guesses.

Rome was in a constant state of war, for example. You actully think human sacrifices which was quite prevalent among the nations is a better time than today? I am not sure how I can appeal to your morals if that is what you think.

[DD2014]

Basic science tells us, sin gets punished and must be atoned for.

What type of science are you referring to?

...you still can't bring about a simple replicating life to prove abiogenesis.

And you still can't bring out God.

Enemy attestation from the Jews and Romans don't deny these facts, but report on some of them.

Ok, PM me everything anyone has recorded about Jesus.

Why would you expect Lucifer, demons or sin to be mentioned specifically?

If they are not, how do you know what happened? Is there another book in the bible that I don't know about?

But you do have to explain why Day 2 was not called a good day like the other days.

But why is the first day not good? Did it take God 2 days to get rid of the demons?

You are a bad guy because God proved Himself to you and you still reject Him without just cause.

He has not proved himself to me.

These were swift judgments under the law because the evil under the old dispensation was rampant. Without these measures Israel would not have survived as a nation to usher in the Messiah.

How is a girl that dishonors her father going to compromise Israel's survival?

This was necessary, because it was a battle zone in Canaan. It was basically kill or be killed. Those idols could have corrupted Israel and extinguished her permanently.

So it is ok if innocent people (and babies) get killed as long as your God is the only one being worshiped?

Isaiah was the most spiritual man alive at the time, the greatest prophet of the OT, so to be attacked like that has grave consequences. It would be comparable to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

So Isaiah was better and more important then everyone else? Why? Are people equal, Or are some favored? If I'm not favored would I need to work harder to get the same treatment?

What other national God speaks against his own people like the Lord of Israel does? You can see why it was a genuine testimony. God hates sin even the sin of of Israel, so they were banished from their land and sent to Babylon. You keep accusing God, but you never see the consequence of sin.

With your God someone always ends up dying that had nothing to do with sin. For example, your God kills babies. I think we all know (if sin is real) babies can't sin. So why would God kill children that have not even sinned yet?

The more I read the bible, the less loving and just your God appears.

This is God's hatred of sin and idol worshipers.

How evil could babies and little children be?

Egypt enslaved Israel for 430 years and after 9 plagues the Pharaoh still refused to release them. God wanted his people out of Egypt--a type for the world. That's what it took. Otherwise Israel would have been enslaved for hundreds of years more. You're defending this evil? Your problem is you don't think things through because you are clouded by your own immorality and sin nature. The firstborn ate of last remaining grain which was diseased or infected which killed the firstborn.

So slavery is a worse sin then murder?

It's conditional. If Israel sins, she won't have victory.

But God knows that Israel will sin, why promise something if you know it won't happen? Its called lying.

Sin has consequences. Starting to get the picture yet?

I guess it does, the only problem is that its usually the kids that are killed.

Children die as a result of sinful nations. These things happen even in your atheist world, but you have no way of explaining it because you deny sin exists. These things are good things as far as an atheist is concerned for what makes them any worse? They are naturally happening according to nature's course.

But its ok if it helps out Israel?

Whose killing babies but at the hands of man? God is just reporting what sin does.

Untill God commands the killing.

Rome was in a constant state of war, for example. You actully think human sacrifices which was quite prevalent among the nations is a better time than today? I am not sure how I can appeal to your morals if that is what you think.

So your not going to tell me where you got that "data" from?

[Churchwork]

What type of science are you referring to?

The science that says smoking kills people.

And you still can't bring out God.

God is brought out because you can't produce abiogenesis and disprove the exponential progression of conscience. Nor can you find a naturalistic explanation for the resurrection of Jesus that fits the data most atheist scholars accept.

Ok, PM me everything anyone has recorded about Jesus.

Why? I don't think I have enough bandwidth.

If they are not, how do you know what happened? Is there another book in the bible that I don't know about?

The Bible talks about what happened. Why do you need more than the 66 books? After 66 books it starts to get cumbersome to carry around.

But why is the first day not good? Did it take God 2 days to get rid of the demons?

The first day is called good. The demons weren't cast into the deep on day 1 or day 2, but in Genesis 1.2. The days are summary days that sum up the period of restoration after God made desolate in Gen. 1.2.

He has not proved himself to me.

He did prove Himself to you. God is brought out because you can't produce abiogenesis and disprove the exponential progression of conscience. Nor can you find a naturalistic explanation for the resurrection of Jesus that fits the data most atheist scholars accept. What else does He have to do? Don't make a selfish request. It will be rejected.

How is a girl that dishonors her father going to compromise Israel's survival?

Just look at Sodom and Gomorrah in rampant fornication.

So it is ok if innocent people (and babies) get killed as long as your God is the only one being worshiped?

Since those babies were going to grow up as they did generations before to continue child sacrifices unto their own children, God said enough is enough. God thinks this evil is really evil! You not so much?

So Isaiah was better and more important then everyone else? Why? Are people equal, Or are some favored? If I'm not favored would I need to work harder to get the same treatment?

God values those He can communicate His revelation through. God made us all in His image equal and provides sufficient grace to us all to have the choice to be saved in Christ, but there is also the matter of rewards. Many Christians will lose the reward of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years.

With your God someone always ends up dying that had nothing to do with sin. For example, your God kills babies. I think we all know (if sin is real) babies can't sin. So why would God kill children that have not even sinned yet? The more I read the bible, the less loving and just your God appears.

Those babies were born from parents who practice child sacrifices and continued to practice this for hundreds of years. God's wrath came in wiping out those 10 tribes. How would you feel if you were raised in a society where you could be picked to be thrown into the fiery mouth of the Molech god and have it televised on tv? Or maybe it was your sister? How does that make you feel? If you prefer this over God getting rid of those 10 tribes, then what does that say about your own morality? You don't think this would be a horrific society that must be done away with? And so those evil tribes if they were allowed to grow by God doing nothing, they would have ultimately destroyed Israel and Jesus would not have been born. Why do you keep defending such evil is the real question?

How evil could babies and little children be?

Though babies are born into sin they are not deemed sinners until the age of accountability if they don't give their lives to Christ.

So slavery is a worse sin then murder?

They are both an abomination to God, but I would put murder as being worse than slavery.

But God knows that Israel will sin, why promise something if you know it won't happen? Its called lying.

It has happened. Israel is a nation and is getting more land to the Euphrates River day by day. When God gives His warnings, even though it may be rejected (for a time), He still has to do the right thing. He knew Adam and Eve would be disobedient, but He still had to tell them not to eat of the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil, because he knew what would happen. You know what happened next.

I guess it does, the only problem is that its usually the kids that are killed.

Yes, it is sad so many kids die because of their parents' sin.

But its ok if it helps out Israel?

Yes, because Israel was the one nation on the planet who would listen to Him, after being enslaved for 430 years. Should not the spoils go to the righteous?

Untill God commands the killing.

That was a unique situation in Canaan no doubt, just like when a gun is held to your wife's head by an intruder and in a moment you you can blow his brains out and save your daughter's mother.

Do you know what you have been doing all this time? Misreading and misunderstand God (Step 3 of the 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible). Lame eh?

So your not going to tell me where you got that "data" from?

Which data specifically? Just curious, did you misspell one word on purpose or was that a genuine mistake in failing to use the spell checker yet again?